What constitutes performance in a sailboat design is a common point of
dissension among sailors. Let's cut to the chase. A 40 foot vessel that
sails at 10 knots on a reach, but falters at 40 degrees true is not a
great performing boat in spite of it's formidable downwind ability.
From the perspective of a designer and sailor, performance equates to
the widest range of directional velocity or VMG. In short; the higher
pointing hull is superior regardless of speed or size. A small racer
like a J24 is a better performing boat than a Catalina 42. Does this
mean the J24 is faster. Perhaps at times and in certain conditions, but
the Catalina 42 LWL will prove to be too much for the J24 off the wind.
No matter, the J24 is the better performing boat. Let's try an
off-the-wall example...a Mazda Miata vs. a Ford Crown Victoria. The
Crown Vic, used by police is a big fairly fast car. It's faster than
the Miata and can hold high speeds longer with less driver fatigue. But
the Miata is a better performing car. It's responsive
transmission/engine, fine balance and suspension make it able to turn
faster and return generous feedback to the wheel and brakes. The faster
car is not the better performing car in all cases. Performance is not
all about speed...with cars or boats.
And so it is with sailboats. A J24 is a better performing boat than a
C&C 32, in spite of the fact that the C&C is faster in many situations.
The only other true performance boats on this list are Loco's and
Donal's. You can cry and wine all day and night about it. Jeff can
claim his boat goes 200 knots downwind. Mooron can claim his boat would
fare better over 2000 miles of reaching through tsunamis. Neal can
claim he'll fly a 344% genoa generating an S/AD of 77.9. It doesn't
matter. You can all claim my interior is not suited for Atlantic
crossings. It wasn't bought for that. You can jump up and down that
she'll be uncomfortable in 10 foot swells. We won't take Thomas into
that any time soon.
We bought the best boat for our needs and conditions. What angers so
many folks here is that our choice just happens to easily eclipse
there's and that's more than they can handle.
We simply have the nicest boat here...and the best performing one as
well.

(Yes. I stole the opening from a certain book on racing. So what? It
only afirms my point.)

Capt. Robert B
35s5
NY

How can you have the "best performing boat here"
if you just stated the only Loco and Donal have
true performance boats?
S.

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
: What constitutes performance in a sailboat
design is a common point of
: dissension among sailors. Let's cut to the
chase. A 40 foot vessel that
: sails at 10 knots on a reach, but falters at 40
degrees true is not a
: great performing boat in spite of it's
formidable downwind ability.
: From the perspective of a designer and sailor,
performance equates to
: the widest range of directional velocity or VMG.
In short; the higher
: pointing hull is superior regardless of speed or
size. A small racer
: like a J24 is a better performing boat than a
Catalina 42. Does this
: mean the J24 is faster. Perhaps at times and in
certain conditions, but
: the Catalina 42 LWL will prove to be too much
for the J24 off the wind.
: No matter, the J24 is the better performing
boat. Let's try an
: off-the-wall example...a Mazda Miata vs. a Ford
Crown Victoria. The
: Crown Vic, used by police is a big fairly fast
car. It's faster than
: the Miata and can hold high speeds longer with
less driver fatigue. But
: the Miata is a better performing car. It's
responsive
: transmission/engine, fine balance and suspension
make it able to turn
: faster and return generous feedback to the wheel
and brakes. The faster
: car is not the better performing car in all
cases. Performance is not
: all about speed...with cars or boats.
: And so it is with sailboats. A J24 is a better
performing boat than a
: C&C 32, in spite of the fact that the C&C is
faster in many situations.
: The only other true performance boats on this
list are Loco's and
: Donal's. You can cry and wine all day and night
about it. Jeff can
: claim his boat goes 200 knots downwind. Mooron
can claim his boat would
: fare better over 2000 miles of reaching through
tsunamis. Neal can
: claim he'll fly a 344% genoa generating an S/AD
of 77.9. It doesn't
: matter. You can all claim my interior is not
suited for Atlantic
: crossings. It wasn't bought for that. You can
jump up and down that
: she'll be uncomfortable in 10 foot swells. We
won't take Thomas into
: that any time soon.
: We bought the best boat for our needs and
conditions. What angers so
: many folks here is that our choice just happens
to easily eclipse
: there's and that's more than they can handle.
: We simply have the nicest boat here...and the
best performing one as
: well.
:
: (Yes. I stole the opening from a certain book on
racing. So what? It
: only afirms my point.)
:
: Capt. Robert B
: 35s5
: NY
:

How can you have the "best performing boat here"
if you just stated the only Loco and Donal have
true performance boats?

Actually, Donal may have a slight performance edge...hard to say. His
boat is fast. Very close based on what I've been reading. Loco's boat
is not far behind at all. No one has anything close.

RB
35s5
NY

Nice troll, Boobie, especially quoting a presumably "famous" book
without attribution. Thus, if anyone contradicts anything, you can
jump in say, "So you think so-and-so doesn't know what he's talking
about?"

Defining "performance" strictly as pointing ability may be of some
value to a round-the-buoys racer, but is meaningless for almost all
other sailors. I just posted the polars for two well known "high
performance" racers, which show that while they may be to achieve very
small angles, the VMG at 45 degrees is almost as good, if not better,
especially in light air. If this is true for a C&C 99, why would the
owner of the Cat 42 who doesn't race give rat's ass if his boat
"falters" at 40 degrees?

Performance is truly defined as how well something fulfills its
intended purpose. Thus, a round-the-buoys racer has to point well to
be considered "high performance." A cruiser has to do other things
well, including providing a stable, comfortable environment; well
ventilated; allowing basic living functions to continue while
underway; provide a comfortable home away from home, regardless of the
destination, plus many other attributes. A "racer/cruiser" should do
both well; if it doesn't, it can't be considered "high performance."

Further, to perform well, a boat should be used for its intended
purpose. In my opinion, a racer that is never raced, or a cruiser
that is never cruised is not a high performance boat regardless of its
pedigree. A fine philosophical point, perhaps, but someone who never
races has no credibility to claim the "best performing racer"
regardless of how the term is defined.

So maybe you have the "best performing flat water day sailer" in the
group, Bob. Congrats.


Capt. Rob wrote:
What constitutes performance in a sailboat design is a common point of
dissension among sailors. Let's cut to the chase. A 40 foot vessel that
sails at 10 knots on a reach, but falters at 40 degrees true is not a
great performing boat in spite of it's formidable downwind ability.
From the perspective of a designer and sailor, performance equates to
the widest range of directional velocity or VMG. In short; the higher
pointing hull is superior regardless of speed or size. A small racer
like a J24 is a better performing boat than a Catalina 42. Does this
mean the J24 is faster. Perhaps at times and in certain conditions, but
the Catalina 42 LWL will prove to be too much for the J24 off the wind.
No matter, the J24 is the better performing boat. Let's try an
off-the-wall example...a Mazda Miata vs. a Ford Crown Victoria. The
Crown Vic, used by police is a big fairly fast car. It's faster than
the Miata and can hold high speeds longer with less driver fatigue. But
the Miata is a better performing car. It's responsive
transmission/engine, fine balance and suspension make it able to turn
faster and return generous feedback to the wheel and brakes. The faster
car is not the better performing car in all cases. Performance is not
all about speed...with cars or boats.
And so it is with sailboats. A J24 is a better performing boat than a
C&C 32, in spite of the fact that the C&C is faster in many situations.
The only other true performance boats on this list are Loco's and
Donal's. You can cry and wine all day and night about it. Jeff can
claim his boat goes 200 knots downwind. Mooron can claim his boat would
fare better over 2000 miles of reaching through tsunamis. Neal can
claim he'll fly a 344% genoa generating an S/AD of 77.9. It doesn't
matter. You can all claim my interior is not suited for Atlantic
crossings. It wasn't bought for that. You can jump up and down that
she'll be uncomfortable in 10 foot swells. We won't take Thomas into
that any time soon.
We bought the best boat for our needs and conditions. What angers so
many folks here is that our choice just happens to easily eclipse
there's and that's more than they can handle.
We simply have the nicest boat here...and the best performing one as
well.

(Yes. I stole the opening from a certain book on racing. So what? It
only afirms my point.)

Capt. Robert B
35s5
NY

Performance is truly defined as how well something fulfills its
intended purpose.


Oh, I guess that means that if the guy with the Island Packet 35 feels
his boat performs great within his goals, then that's good performance?
Sorry, Jeff, making up your own definition for sailing performance
won't cut it. Your boat sails poorly in light air, is tedious to tack
(your own) words and is weak upwind. Even compared to newer cats it's
still not a good performer. However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,
goes upwind, tacks on a dime and is able to work in light air and is
still considered a good performer against more modern designs. You
enter as many qualifications as you want but the basic facts are not
altered.
You own a cruising boat that does well off the wind, tacks badly, can't
sail well in light air, can't point, has a numb helm....all by your own
admission now less....man, I sure gotta get me one of those!


RB
35s5
NY

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,

Your boat is a turtle downwind in light air [5-15kts] and you know it. In
heavier air you need to broad reach because your squirrelly boat can't run
DDW.

Fin Keeler!

CM

However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,

Your boat is a turtle downwind in light air [5-15kts] and you know it.
In
heavier air you need to broad reach because your squirrelly boat can't
run
DDW.


Nonsense. I've already posted from 35s5 owners who've simply stated
that the 35s5 requires some experience to be fast downwind. I already
sailed it downwind in 20 knots and it was cooking. I guess I just have
the knack. (Actually the owner was on board showing me). You don't even
know enough about boats to know why her design is tricky
downwind....HINT...it aint about be squirrely. She tracks great in
fact. So try again!

John, we clearly don't agree on the 35s5. She gets a bit flustered
downwind, but that's when skill is supposed to take over! We've had her
over 12 knots more times than I can count. We agree on the upwind
balance, fin or wing she's really amazing.

Robert, congratulations on the 35s5. We've had our for 8 years
running
and the boat has been practically bullet proof. We sail her hard and
have had surfing at 15 knots. Upwind we are right there with the J105's

and other racers. I don't agree with John about downwind being tricky.
We're just about untouchable downwind, though I admit upwind is the
boat's forte, making 7 knots at 33 degrees with ease. That's slightly
better than the polars Karen sent, but remember that sails are much
better now and we spent a lot on ours!

Snap into a slim jim!

RB
35s5
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:

However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,

What, it sails well on port tack *and* starboard tack?? Wow!


--
Capt Scumbalino

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

Nonsense. I've already posted from 35s5 owners who've simply stated
that the 35s5 requires some experience to be fast downwind. [snip the Yada
Yada Yada]

Yeah! Sure Bob!... talk to the Hand! ...Talk to the Hand!

Your boat is a Slug downwind!

CM

Nice troll, Boobie, especially quoting a presumably "famous" book
without attribution. Thus, if anyone contradicts anything, you can
jump in say, "So you think so-and-so doesn't know what he's talking
about?"


Thanks, Jeff. But I'll tell you the truth...since we've had some fun
and actually generated some interesting sailing talk. It's not from a
book at all. I made that up just to keep certain folk at bay. Worked
like a charm! Or did it?


RB
35s5
NY