Maxprop wrote:
I can't imagine what sort of trim would heel a close-hauled boat to windward
in normal (non-drifter) winds,WITHOUT the addition of hiking railmeat. But
I'm open to learn.


It doesn't take much "rail meat," but it does take hiking.


Fully-battened mains will obviously stay in shape, even when heeled to
windward.

They will, kinda sort-of. Not well wnough to sail as efficiently as with
a little heel, though.


... But I wasn't aware that the same thing could be achieved with
some of the new sheet laminate headsails.


I wasn't eaither but would like to see it.



Yep. The boat accelerates much better and if it's one of those gawd-awful
days with chop & light air, it can go thru the lumpy parts better.


I agree that it does, but what is your explanation for this effect?


???

Why do I have to explain it?


You don't have to do anything you don't want to do, but there must be some
reason for it. I was just curious, not interogative.


I don't really know, although I have some possibilities in mind.
More power, for starters.



Depends upon your definition of "moderate air," and whether you're sailing a
dinghy or a more substantial keel boat.

Nope.

Only a boat that will be affected by crew weight.



Roll-tacking was not allowed in Snipe events when I raced them.

???

Roll tacking has always been allowed. Now, there have always been rules
against various forms of propulsion, some of which are suspiciously
close to sailing but are deemed inappropriate... or ungentlemanly, or
something.

If one were to roll-tack one's way up the windward leg, using each tack
simply for propulsion and not because of windshifts or competitors, that
would be illegal, then & now.



... Later I used it routinely when racing Lasers, but
finally was DSQ'd in one race in a regatta in Michigan for using "disallowed
kinetics." Forced to stop, it ****ed me off so thoroughly that I sold the
Laser and quit dingy racing altogether. It was a bitter pill to discover
that years later it was considered okay.

Seems to be the prevalent mode of light-air sailing in college, which is
a shame.

My rule of thumb- don't use kinetics any more than the top few boats
are. And practice, so that if they are busy sawing loas across the race
course, you can do it better & faster. In fact, I have occasionally
complained to other skippers that they were getting a bit heavy handed
on the rocking & pumping, got ignored, and rock/pumped my way past,
whereupon I stopped & grinned back at them. Point made.


If you get DSQ'd you should honestly be able to say (and hopefully get
the backing of a few other skippers) "I was doing exactly what the other
boats were doing, so DSQ them also."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message

Roll tacking has always been allowed. Now, there have always been rules
against various forms of propulsion, some of which are suspiciously close
to sailing but are deemed inappropriate... or ungentlemanly, or something.

Roll tacking wasn't specifically outlawed in the SCIRA rule book, but most
regatta committees ruled it illegal as an interpretation of the
anti-kinetics rules. I read at the time that the top sailor in the Snipe
Junior Nationals was DSQ'd from two races in 1972 for roll tacking. He
still won the nationals that year, his other finishes were 1-1-1-1-2-1-1.
But the scuttlebut thereafter was that roll tacking wasn't allowed in
Snipes. A few years later everyone was doing it. Things change.

If one were to roll-tack one's way up the windward leg, using each tack
simply for propulsion and not because of windshifts or competitors, that
would be illegal, then & now.

Interpretation changes with time. Kinetics become better-defined and
written rules become more specific. When I raced Snipes they were the
second largest one-design class in the world, with Sunfish #1. Now neither
class is even viable any longer.


If you get DSQ'd you should honestly be able to say (and hopefully get the
backing of a few other skippers) "I was doing exactly what the other boats
were doing, so DSQ them also."

Depends upon how well politically aligned you are with the race committee.
My experience is that most race committees tend to have selective vision and
variable rules interpretation skills.

Max

....I read at the time that the top sailor in the Snipe
Junior Nationals was DSQ'd from two races in 1972 for roll tacking. He
still won the nationals that year, his other finishes were 1-1-1-1-2-1-1.

Sounds like a pretty good series for him.


But the scuttlebut thereafter was that roll tacking wasn't allowed in
Snipes. A few years later everyone was doing it. Things change.


Things definitely change.



If one were to roll-tack one's way up the windward leg, using each tack
simply for propulsion and not because of windshifts or competitors, that
would be illegal, then & now.


Interpretation changes with time.

And with location, and with present company.


... Kinetics become better-defined and
written rules become more specific. When I raced Snipes they were the
second largest one-design class in the world, with Sunfish #1. Now neither
class is even viable any longer.


What? The Snipe class may be staging a comeback you haven't
noticed. I see a fair amount of them around the Southeast.
OTOH Fireballs and Y-Flyers seem to have gone the way of the
dodo.




If you get DSQ'd you should honestly be able to say (and hopefully get the
backing of a few other skippers) "I was doing exactly what the other boats
were doing, so DSQ them also."

Maxprop wrote:
Depends upon how well politically aligned you are with the race committee.
My experience is that most race committees tend to have selective vision and
variable rules interpretation skills.

No, that should NEVER be a factor. A Race Committee, or a
Protest Committee, can NOT simply DSQ a competitor without a
hearing on the same rules of order as a protest by a competitor.

Protest committees occasionally hand out weird decisions...
I can recall being DSQ'd for being hit by a windward boat
who felt that I was in his way... it wasn't worth an appeal.
Most Protest Committees these days err on the side of
political correctness, and shy away from doing anything as
offensive as DSQ'ing anybody.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message

....I read at the time that the top sailor in the Snipe Junior Nationals
was DSQ'd from two races in 1972 for roll tacking. He still won the
nationals that year, his other finishes were 1-1-1-1-2-1-1.

Sounds like a pretty good series for him.

The kid was awesome. He weighed in, dripping wet, at about 105 lbs. and
used his little brother (about 80 lbs.) as his crew. Not to mention that
his folks owned a sailmaking company which, at the time, were producing some
of the finest Snipe sails available. We also noticed that his sails didn't
look like the ones everyone else got from his parents' company.

But the scuttlebut thereafter was that roll tacking wasn't allowed in
Snipes. A few years later everyone was doing it. Things change.


Things definitely change.



If one were to roll-tack one's way up the windward leg, using each tack
simply for propulsion and not because of windshifts or competitors, that
would be illegal, then & now.


Interpretation changes with time.

And with location, and with present company.


... Kinetics become better-defined and written rules become more
specific. When I raced Snipes they were the second largest one-design
class in the world, with Sunfish #1. Now neither class is even viable
any longer.


What? The Snipe class may be staging a comeback you haven't noticed. I see
a fair amount of them around the Southeast. OTOH Fireballs and Y-Flyers
seem to have gone the way of the dodo.

Snipes have made a comeback of sorts, but they are a far cry from what they
were in the Seventies. There were nearly 20,000 registered Snipes by '75.



If you get DSQ'd you should honestly be able to say (and hopefully get
the backing of a few other skippers) "I was doing exactly what the other
boats were doing, so DSQ them also."

Maxprop wrote:
Depends upon how well politically aligned you are with the race
committee. My experience is that most race committees tend to have
selective vision and variable rules interpretation skills.

No, that should NEVER be a factor. A Race Committee, or a Protest
Committee, can NOT simply DSQ a competitor without a hearing on the same
rules of order as a protest by a competitor.

That's precisely what happened. Someone protests a competitor for using
kinetics--the word was "ooching" in the instance in question--and the race
committee convenes a post-race hearing to determine who was right. The
politically-aligned sailors always won, in my experience. No one really
knew the term "roll-tack" at the time, so such a maneuver was covered by the
next closest term--ooching. It's wasn't ooching at all, nor even close, but
that didn't matter to the race committee, who may as well have been demigods
with the power they possessed over such situations.

Protest committees occasionally hand out weird decisions... I can recall
being DSQ'd for being hit by a windward boat who felt that I was in his
way... it wasn't worth an appeal.

Why? Were you that far behind? g

Most Protest Committees these days err on the side of political
correctness, and shy away from doing anything as offensive as DSQ'ing
anybody.

As we've both said above, times change. Back then blatant political
decisions, or cronyism, was the norm. I gave up Laser racing because of
such crap.

Quick story: I was shoved against a mark during a rounding by a boat over
whom I clearly had rights. He knew it too, and smiled at me when I
protested him. I did my 720, lost six positions, regained three while he
won the race. Before the hearing, one of the old yacht club regulars asked
me, "Heh, heh, do you really think you can get a decision over Lew, heh,
heh?" I said, "Hell yes, he was clearly in violation of rule # such and
such . . . ." I lost.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
Snipes have made a comeback of sorts, but they are a far cry from what they
were in the Seventies. There were nearly 20,000 registered Snipes by '75.


Sure, back in the "good old days" they were the biggest
class in the world. Lot of good sailors keep a Snipe handy
for the big regattas. I know of a couple of people that race
Snipes along with two or three other classes.


No, that should NEVER be a factor. A Race Committee, or a Protest
Committee, can NOT simply DSQ a competitor without a hearing on the same
rules of order as a protest by a competitor.


That's precisely what happened. Someone protests a competitor for using
kinetics--the word was "ooching" in the instance in question--and the race
committee convenes a post-race hearing to determine who was right. The
politically-aligned sailors always won, in my experience.

To some extent, that's always true isn't it? Life is a
popularity contest.



Protest committees occasionally hand out weird decisions... I can recall
being DSQ'd for being hit by a windward boat who felt that I was in his
way... it wasn't worth an appeal.


Why? Were you that far behind? g

No, I was racing in a different class (beach cats) and had
not done well enough for contention of 1st, and I already
had a big enouogh pile of 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc trophies that
I'd begun throwing them away (in fact I've moved twice since
then and tossed out quite a few more). I didn't really care,
just made a few sarcastic remarks later to the individuals
concerned who should have known better. The guy who
protested me was a former champ in this class who was
failing miserably at a comeback and was PO'd.




Quick story: I was shoved against a mark during a rounding by a boat over
whom I clearly had rights. He knew it too, and smiled at me when I
protested him. I did my 720, lost six positions, regained three while he
won the race. Before the hearing, one of the old yacht club regulars asked
me, "Heh, heh, do you really think you can get a decision over Lew, heh,
heh?" I said, "Hell yes, he was clearly in violation of rule # such and
such . . . ." I lost.


Well, that's bull**** and it shows the minute "good ol' Lew,
heh heh" sails somewhere outside his little frog pond.

What frosts me is when such shenanigans go on at the big
events. In a major Lightning championship I was in (for the
record, we did not bring home any silver from this one), Mr
X forced his way into a mark rounding, at a gate no less,
not only hit the mark but it literally went under his boat's
hull, also ramming two other boats in the process and
fouling one's rig... Mr X was DSQ'd by a protest committee
and then had his finish mysteriously reinstated the last day
of the series.

A few years later, this guy won a big championship, and at
the dinner I asked a few people who were at this foul-up if
they remembered when Mr X sailed over the bouy and they said
hell yes, and re-told the story loudly. Mr X got very red
faced but did not say a word. I've been told his kids refer
to that big trophy as "the one Daddy got by sailing over a
mark." Personally I think that's good enough revenge.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Maxprop wrote:
Snipes have made a comeback of sorts, but they are a far cry from what
they were in the Seventies. There were nearly 20,000 registered Snipes
by '75.


Sure, back in the "good old days" they were the biggest class in the
world.

Second biggest, actually. Sunfish numbered more, but probably more Snipes
were actually raced.

Lot of good sailors keep a Snipe handy for the big regattas. I know of a
couple of people that race Snipes along with two or three other classes.

I raced Snipes, Lightnings, and Lasers during the same period. It's not
uncommon.

No, that should NEVER be a factor. A Race Committee, or a Protest
Committee, can NOT simply DSQ a competitor without a hearing on the same
rules of order as a protest by a competitor.


That's precisely what happened. Someone protests a competitor for using
kinetics--the word was "ooching" in the instance in question--and the
race committee convenes a post-race hearing to determine who was right.
The politically-aligned sailors always won, in my experience.

To some extent, that's always true isn't it? Life is a popularity contest.

Of course. It's not what you know, it's whom.


Protest committees occasionally hand out weird decisions... I can recall
being DSQ'd for being hit by a windward boat who felt that I was in his
way... it wasn't worth an appeal.


Why? Were you that far behind? g

No, I was racing in a different class (beach cats) and had not done well
enough for contention of 1st, and I already had a big enouogh pile of 2nd,
3rd, 4th etc trophies that I'd begun throwing them away (in fact I've
moved twice since then and tossed out quite a few more). I didn't really
care, just made a few sarcastic remarks later to the individuals concerned
who should have known better. The guy who protested me was a former champ
in this class who was failing miserably at a comeback and was PO'd.




Quick story: I was shoved against a mark during a rounding by a boat
over whom I clearly had rights. He knew it too, and smiled at me when I
protested him. I did my 720, lost six positions, regained three while he
won the race. Before the hearing, one of the old yacht club regulars
asked me, "Heh, heh, do you really think you can get a decision over Lew,
heh, heh?" I said, "Hell yes, he was clearly in violation of rule # such
and such . . . ." I lost.


Well, that's bull**** and it shows the minute "good ol' Lew, heh heh"
sails somewhere outside his little frog pond.

Lew knew better than to ever race elsewhere. He was a bully and a mediocre
sailor. Even his strongarm tactics couldn't land him in better than 5th or
6th place.


What frosts me is when such shenanigans go on at the big events. In a
major Lightning championship I was in (for the record, we did not bring
home any silver from this one), Mr X forced his way into a mark rounding,
at a gate no less, not only hit the mark but it literally went under his
boat's hull, also ramming two other boats in the process and fouling one's
rig... Mr X was DSQ'd by a protest committee and then had his finish
mysteriously reinstated the last day of the series.

Fortunately I was the fleet scorer for both our Snipe and Laser fleets. I
was approached by a parent on one occasion in an effort to get a kid's
finishing position changed in one race in the junior regionals. It would
have made the difference between second and third overall for his kid. When
I rejected his attempt to "reason" with me, I was offered cash. When I
rejected that, I was threatened. A predictable pattern.

..
A few years later, this guy won a big championship, and at the dinner I
asked a few people who were at this foul-up if they remembered when Mr X
sailed over the bouy and they said hell yes, and re-told the story loudly.
Mr X got very red faced but did not say a word. I've been told his kids
refer to that big trophy as "the one Daddy got by sailing over a mark."
Personally I think that's good enough revenge.

I suspect similar stories are played and replayed at yacht clubs throughout
the world. I gave up showing horses many years ago when I discovered that
the politics of that particular activity were no different or worse than
those in most other hobbies or sports. I still race, but I've mellowed
enough to find comfort in the knowledge that sailboat racing just ain't
important enough to get upset about. Larry Ellison might disagree.

Max

To some extent, that's always true isn't it? Life is a popularity contest.


Maxprop wrote:
Of course. It's not what you know, it's whom.


Or what you know about whom.

Actually, facts are very powerful. You just always have to
remember that facts & logic can be trumped by stupidity &
nepotism; and try to either avoid those situations or only
get into them where you are likley to be favored.


Fortunately I was the fleet scorer for both our Snipe and Laser fleets. I
was approached by a parent on one occasion in an effort to get a kid's
finishing position changed in one race in the junior regionals. It would
have made the difference between second and third overall for his kid. When
I rejected his attempt to "reason" with me, I was offered cash. When I
rejected that, I was threatened. A predictable pattern.


That's really low. That's worse than anything I've heard of,
although I've seen a fair number of scoring errors and/or
inexplicable final placings. If I knew of a sailor who tried
to bribe the scorer, that would be an issue to tell USSA
(and the region) about.

At one point, as a club officer, I handed over a very nice
perpetual trophy to a sailor whom we later found had faked
printed regatta results to show that he had a regional high
point score. Pinhead! He never lived that down and gave up
sailing the very next year. A shame really, because he was a
pretty good sailor.


I suspect similar stories are played and replayed at yacht clubs throughout
the world. I gave up showing horses many years ago when I discovered that
the politics of that particular activity were no different or worse than
those in most other hobbies or sports. I still race, but I've mellowed
enough to find comfort in the knowledge that sailboat racing just ain't
important enough to get upset about. Larry Ellison might disagree.


The thing to do is 1- enjoy it no matter how you place 2-
stay away from entanglements with other boats that will lead
to protests 3- work hard to get so good that you blow
everyone's doors off and there's no question whatever over
your score. If you ever get to 3- it's time to move to a
more competitive class.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King