Maxprop wrote:
I can't imagine what sort of trim would heel a close-hauled boat to windward
in normal (non-drifter) winds,WITHOUT the addition of hiking railmeat. But
I'm open to learn.


It doesn't take much "rail meat," but it does take hiking.


Fully-battened mains will obviously stay in shape, even when heeled to
windward.

They will, kinda sort-of. Not well wnough to sail as efficiently as with
a little heel, though.


... But I wasn't aware that the same thing could be achieved with
some of the new sheet laminate headsails.


I wasn't eaither but would like to see it.



Yep. The boat accelerates much better and if it's one of those gawd-awful
days with chop & light air, it can go thru the lumpy parts better.


I agree that it does, but what is your explanation for this effect?


???

Why do I have to explain it?


You don't have to do anything you don't want to do, but there must be some
reason for it. I was just curious, not interogative.


I don't really know, although I have some possibilities in mind.
More power, for starters.



Depends upon your definition of "moderate air," and whether you're sailing a
dinghy or a more substantial keel boat.

Nope.

Only a boat that will be affected by crew weight.



Roll-tacking was not allowed in Snipe events when I raced them.

???

Roll tacking has always been allowed. Now, there have always been rules
against various forms of propulsion, some of which are suspiciously
close to sailing but are deemed inappropriate... or ungentlemanly, or
something.

If one were to roll-tack one's way up the windward leg, using each tack
simply for propulsion and not because of windshifts or competitors, that
would be illegal, then & now.



... Later I used it routinely when racing Lasers, but
finally was DSQ'd in one race in a regatta in Michigan for using "disallowed
kinetics." Forced to stop, it ****ed me off so thoroughly that I sold the
Laser and quit dingy racing altogether. It was a bitter pill to discover
that years later it was considered okay.

Seems to be the prevalent mode of light-air sailing in college, which is
a shame.

My rule of thumb- don't use kinetics any more than the top few boats
are. And practice, so that if they are busy sawing loas across the race
course, you can do it better & faster. In fact, I have occasionally
complained to other skippers that they were getting a bit heavy handed
on the rocking & pumping, got ignored, and rock/pumped my way past,
whereupon I stopped & grinned back at them. Point made.


If you get DSQ'd you should honestly be able to say (and hopefully get
the backing of a few other skippers) "I was doing exactly what the other
boats were doing, so DSQ them also."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Capt. Rob wrote:
... When someone nicks at their
fragile bubbles of fakery, they let out the famous cry....

"I can sail one of my dinghies when I really want to sail!!!!"


Which aggravates Bubbles, because he *can't* sail a dinghy.

DSK

"Capt. Rob" wrote
... You
mean a Swan is more comfortable than a big PDQ? Holy crap.


Yep. Costs more, too.


Maxprop wrote:
My wife and I spent a weekend on a new 44' Nautor Swan in '99, soon after
the owner took possession. Nothing--absolutely nothing-- could even
remotely be termed "uncomfortable" on that boat, below or topside. It was
diligently designed, beautifully executed, and sailed like a dream. Sad
part was its price: around $800K. I can't afford one.


You could if you really really wanted one bad. They'll finance anybody
these days.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message

Roll tacking has always been allowed. Now, there have always been rules
against various forms of propulsion, some of which are suspiciously close
to sailing but are deemed inappropriate... or ungentlemanly, or something.

Roll tacking wasn't specifically outlawed in the SCIRA rule book, but most
regatta committees ruled it illegal as an interpretation of the
anti-kinetics rules. I read at the time that the top sailor in the Snipe
Junior Nationals was DSQ'd from two races in 1972 for roll tacking. He
still won the nationals that year, his other finishes were 1-1-1-1-2-1-1.
But the scuttlebut thereafter was that roll tacking wasn't allowed in
Snipes. A few years later everyone was doing it. Things change.

If one were to roll-tack one's way up the windward leg, using each tack
simply for propulsion and not because of windshifts or competitors, that
would be illegal, then & now.

Interpretation changes with time. Kinetics become better-defined and
written rules become more specific. When I raced Snipes they were the
second largest one-design class in the world, with Sunfish #1. Now neither
class is even viable any longer.


If you get DSQ'd you should honestly be able to say (and hopefully get the
backing of a few other skippers) "I was doing exactly what the other boats
were doing, so DSQ them also."

Depends upon how well politically aligned you are with the race committee.
My experience is that most race committees tend to have selective vision and
variable rules interpretation skills.

Max

"DSK" wrote in message
news
"Capt. Rob" wrote
... You
mean a Swan is more comfortable than a big PDQ? Holy crap.


Yep. Costs more, too.


Maxprop wrote:
My wife and I spent a weekend on a new 44' Nautor Swan in '99, soon after
the owner took possession. Nothing--absolutely nothing-- could even
remotely be termed "uncomfortable" on that boat, below or topside. It
was diligently designed, beautifully executed, and sailed like a dream.
Sad part was its price: around $800K. I can't afford one.


You could if you really really wanted one bad. They'll finance anybody
these days.

The prevailing mortgage loans in San Francisco these days are the no-down,
interest-only loans. Some lenders even advertise "no credit checks." If
the real estate bubble bursts, there may be some lenders in a world of hurt.
That said, I'd never want anything resembling a depreciating asset (Swan 44,
for example) on paper. I buy only what I can afford to pay cash for.

Max

In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:
The prevailing mortgage loans in San Francisco these days are the no-down,
interest-only loans. Some lenders even advertise "no credit checks." If
the real estate bubble bursts, there may be some lenders in a world of hurt.
That said, I'd never want anything resembling a depreciating asset (Swan 44,
for example) on paper. I buy only what I can afford to pay cash for.

Well, that's not a terrible philosophy, but it isn't necessarily the
best one. My next boat will probably be via some sort of loan. It's
not that I can't afford it to pay cash, but I can probably find other
uses for the cash, I won't be depleting my cash reserves, and I can
claim the boat as a vacation home and get some tax benefit from it. It
will still depreciate in value, but I should be able to partially make
up for that with this strategy.




--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

....I read at the time that the top sailor in the Snipe
Junior Nationals was DSQ'd from two races in 1972 for roll tacking. He
still won the nationals that year, his other finishes were 1-1-1-1-2-1-1.

Sounds like a pretty good series for him.


But the scuttlebut thereafter was that roll tacking wasn't allowed in
Snipes. A few years later everyone was doing it. Things change.


Things definitely change.



If one were to roll-tack one's way up the windward leg, using each tack
simply for propulsion and not because of windshifts or competitors, that
would be illegal, then & now.


Interpretation changes with time.

And with location, and with present company.


... Kinetics become better-defined and
written rules become more specific. When I raced Snipes they were the
second largest one-design class in the world, with Sunfish #1. Now neither
class is even viable any longer.


What? The Snipe class may be staging a comeback you haven't
noticed. I see a fair amount of them around the Southeast.
OTOH Fireballs and Y-Flyers seem to have gone the way of the
dodo.




If you get DSQ'd you should honestly be able to say (and hopefully get the
backing of a few other skippers) "I was doing exactly what the other boats
were doing, so DSQ them also."

Maxprop wrote:
Depends upon how well politically aligned you are with the race committee.
My experience is that most race committees tend to have selective vision and
variable rules interpretation skills.

No, that should NEVER be a factor. A Race Committee, or a
Protest Committee, can NOT simply DSQ a competitor without a
hearing on the same rules of order as a protest by a competitor.

Protest committees occasionally hand out weird decisions...
I can recall being DSQ'd for being hit by a windward boat
who felt that I was in his way... it wasn't worth an appeal.
Most Protest Committees these days err on the side of
political correctness, and shy away from doing anything as
offensive as DSQ'ing anybody.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Which aggravates Bubbles, because he *can't* sail a dinghy.


Peter Wiley wrote:
The last 2 words were superfluous.


Of course, but they still convey signifigance. For example,
I'd be willing to pay $100 to see Bobsprit trying to sail a
Laser in, say, ten or twelve knots of breeze. It would be a
serious contender on Funniest Home Videos.

DSK

Peter Wiley wrote:
Bob's always claiming he's prepared to race anyone, any time.

He's also always claiming to be rich.

Preferably off a shoal lee shore in 10-15 knots, as you say. My place
would be perfect, shoal water and oyster covered rocks, but wrong
country and we don't want any more fat blowhards here.


If you all are below your quota, then you *have* to take him!

But you make your place sound like such a fun place to sail,
Peter, are you trying to drum up some visitors??

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In article , DSK
wrote:

Capt. Rob wrote:
... When someone nicks at their
fragile bubbles of fakery, they let out the famous cry....

"I can sail one of my dinghies when I really want to sail!!!!"


Which aggravates Bubbles, because he *can't* sail a dinghy.

The last 2 words were superfluous.

PDW