No..you're analogy is wrong....we're not talking about Reponses but initial
actions....responses are an entirely different matter...a person can
assertively request another to get them a cup of coffee...by doing so, the
other person, responding to the assertiveness, does not lose face, does not
take on the role of servitude, retains some aspect of equality or
equanimity....a person aggressively requesting another get them a cup of
coffee negates the importance of that other person, takes away their
respect, and lowers their position in regards to others...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:1i3Zd.27317$i6.16694@edtnps90...
Not at all.... everyone has an opinion, that has nothing to do with
assertive behaviour.
The example of the dog is a poor one since you seem to think that refusal
to comply with a request is being assertive. Being assertive is refusal to
comply with direction or treatment that exceeds a boundary you have
established. Once that refusal is made... aggressive behaviour is
enacted, since the action of declining or taking a stand requires it.

Let's use another example. If someone where to direct you to fetch
coffee... even if done politely, compliance to that request is dependent
on several factors. Once you weigh the factors you make a decision to
comply or refuse.

Now, what I'm saying is that such direction would never be considered nor
even directed to an aggressive personality..... since assertiveness goes
hand in hand with aggressive behaviour the "direction" would be quickly
reconsidered and reduced to a "request". A person who is non-aggressive
or not assertive would be the primary candidate for direction due to their
perceived position in the pecking order. To elevate yourself in the
pecking order requires you take a stand... that action requires you to be
aggressive.

While you may be assertive in presenting your point of view in this
matter... you have as well been aggressively defending your
misconceptions.

CM


"katysails" wrote in message
...
To assert mean you have an opinion and are willing to stand by it...that
is not aggression....you really have been too far away from civilization
and for too long a time....your ideas have become warped and distorted
away from the common view....assertiveness is not
aggression...assertiveness is when the dog nudges you for a pat and
doesn't take No for an answer.but you can still walk
away...aggressiveness is when he finally grabs your hand with his teeth
and bites down to remind you that he is in control...and the only way you
can walk away is to fight back or allow him to win...



"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:1OYYd.49077$fc4.21489@edtnps89...
Absolutely inaccurate assessment on your part Kitty. You seem to assume
aggressiveness as truculent behaviour.... that is misleading. To assert
is to take a stance.... that alone requires you assume an aggressive
posture.

The very action of being assertive requires that you are capable of
delineating how you will be treated or engaged. You are making a demand
of others.... that requires an aggressive posture.... unless you are
making a plea... which isn't assertive.

CM



"katysails" wrote in message
...
Well, you're wrong again...I'm not interested in doing all the Google
searches for the studies, but they're there...assertiveness can be
taught and used effectively, without aggression....you probably just
don't recognize it because the testosterone stands in the way...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:IyNYd.23951$ZO2.4359@edtnps84...
Assertive behaviour is motivated by aggressive stance. If you stand
your ground... you are asserting your place... the very act of that is
aggressive. The meek can never be taught assertiveness.... I don't
care how many classes you give them.... they will fold like superman
on laundry day in the face of someone with a true assertive/aggressive
personality.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
You're wrong....there are people that specialize in training the meek
to be assertive...these people have not got an aggressive bone in
their bodies and get walked over....with assertiveness training, they
are able to start fending for themselves...has nothing to do with
aggression and everything to do with survival....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:w6LYd.23554$ZO2.23116@edtnps84...
Again you fail to grasp the basic fact that without an aggressive
attitude... you cannot be assertive. Assertiveness is merely a
symptom of an aggressive nature, as is being competitive. Aggression
does not have to involve physical violence. I believe you are unable
to comprehend this because as a female you are guided by emotion as
opposed to logic.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Assertiveness works well in the competitive field of business
whereas aggressiveness will usually land you on the unemployment
lines...aggressive people generally rise fast in their professions
and then tank out early whereas the consistently assertive attain
their goals in a non-threatening manner and hold their positions or
continue to rise....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:N_EYd.46434$fc4.26583@edtnps89...
I believe it is indeed that you do not comprehend.... or make
erroneous assumptions regarding male aggression. In the average
male... aggressiveness is controlled. To submit that a competitive
nature is not required in a modern society is illogical. Even the
few women in a position of power show an extremely heightened sense
of aggressiveness and a competitive nature. Enlightenment has
nothing to do with it.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
It's not that we don't comprehend..it's that we reject that as
anything other than what it is....uncontrolled testosterone...it
worked for cavemen because that's the physical reality they lived
in but the idea of man (gender, not species) as hunter/gatherer
in an enlightened society is an anachronism...


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:5huYd.20032$ZO2.7495@edtnps84...
NO! Kitty.... You are confusing aggressiveness and
assertiveness.... which is understandable. I will repeat myself
despite the fact I know you are not capable of understanding the
logic..... You cannot be assertive without being aggressive.

Let's take the scenario you utilized.... you assume that
aggression requires physical intervention. It does not!
Aggression between males has a multi-tiered level.... none of
which can be comprehended by females. The level of aggressive
behaviour is dependant on the situation. This is comprehended by
even the youngest of our gender.

CM



CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
An assertive person makes their point by showing you the hole
in the ground; an aggressive person puts you in the hole in the
ground.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:gXrYd.19227$ZO2.4609@edtnps84...
You require aggressiveness to be assertive.... the very act
of asserting yourself, places others as either your equal or
your subordinate.... despite what they may have perceived.
This situation is not attained by passive compliance, nor
neutral indifference.

CM


"katysails" wrote in message
...
I am assertive....not aggressive....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:hTpYd.20694$i6.18071@edtnps90...
Aggression need not be physical....

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
I am not a physically aggressive person....except for the
boots, chains, spurs, etc....but that's not the same
thing...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:xghYd.40369$fc4.33395@edtnps89...
You may indeed suggest it...... but I'd sooner you take
your own advise.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
Well, may I suggest you rise above your base animal
instinct and start using the tools that were given you to
negotiate and walk away from aggression?