| You're saying a Cabo Rico 38 is faster than an Express 30?

Capt. Mooron wrote:
Doug, I know you to be a man of numbers and stats... so I will provide the
table below from SailCalc... along with the fact that the Cabo Rico 38 is
the fastest cruiser I have sailed on. We averaged 11 knots over Yellow Banks
in the Bahamas on one.

Well, that's not slow... OTOH what were the conditions, and what will
the boat do under "normal" (meaning normal for the area and season)
sailing conditions?


Performance Comparison
Hull Speed Cabo Rico 38 7.33

Express 30 6.63

Well, that's to be expected when the CR 38 is more than 1/4 again as
long... assuming that the boat will reach close to hull speed under
normal sailing conditions.


Sail Area to Displacement Cabo Rico 38 20.05

Express 30 18.57

Now that's an interesting figure... the CR 38 has pretty decent sail area


Displacement to LWL Cabo Rico 38 359

Express 30 249

It's also got a much heavier "footprint." I'd be surprised if the CR 38
got all that close to hull speed except under favorable conditions,
whereas the Express 30 performs quite well under a wide variety of
conditions.

I think that off the wind, especially in choppy seas, the CR 38 would be
faster... on a long passage it should be faster...




Yes... faster than the Express 30.

As I said under some conditions, it would be reasonable to expect that.

But for all-round sailing? Let me put it this way... PHRF rating
committees think that the CR 38 is noticably slower than the Express
30... enough so that they would rarely be in the same class.

BTW the Cabo Rico 38 is a Mark Ellis design, right? He's noted for being
able to design comfy boats that sail well... but he's not a magician!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

| More logical than having a sea trial if possible? Wrong.

A Sea Trial is not a Test Sail Bob.


Blah blah blah, snore. You didn't do a sea test or a sea trial nor did Scotty.
Now you'll both claim otherwise.
Whatever!

RB

I did not require a test sail because I had a
reasonable idea of the abilities and performance of the vessel.


Let's see what Joe has to say about the above comment. I'm betting he'll stay
100% silent.

RB

BTW the Cabo Rico 38 is a Mark Ellis design, right? He's noted for being
able to design comfy boats that sail well... but he's not a magician!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King


Doug really cracks me up. I already acurately summed up the CR 38's abilities
and he just acts as though he knew it all along...after I already posted it.
What an idiot!

RB

"DSK" wrote in message
...
But for all-round sailing? Let me put it this way... PHRF rating
committees think that the CR 38 is noticably slower than the Express
30... enough so that they would rarely be in the same class.

BTW the Cabo Rico 38 is a Mark Ellis design, right? He's noted for being
able to design comfy boats that sail well... but he's not a magician!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

And, since there are any number of blue water cruisers of similar length
that are considerably faster than a CR 38, I would be more likely to
characterize the CR 38 as "slow". Claiming that a CR 38 will do 11 knots is
a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
John Cairns

"DSK" wrote in message
| Well, that's not slow... OTOH what were the conditions, and what will
| the boat do under "normal" (meaning normal for the area and season)
| sailing conditions?

I'll have to check my logs.... but I remember mid twenties on windspeed and
a nice reach withboth headsails. We sailed by a Westsail 32 which was
crawling along as usual... but even they were surprised at our speed.
Minimal chop and shallow water with course changes to avoid the coral heads.


|
|
| Performance Comparison
| Hull Speed Cabo Rico 38 7.33
|
| Express 30 6.63
|
| Well, that's to be expected when the CR 38 is more than 1/4 again as
| long... assuming that the boat will reach close to hull speed under
| normal sailing conditions.

I've found that it could.

|
|
| Sail Area to Displacement Cabo Rico 38 20.05
|
| Express 30 18.57
|
| Now that's an interesting figure... the CR 38 has pretty decent sail area

I found the rig powerful and the vessel moved quickly.

|
|
| Displacement to LWL Cabo Rico 38 359
|
| Express 30 249
|
| It's also got a much heavier "footprint." I'd be surprised if the CR 38
| got all that close to hull speed except under favorable conditions,
| whereas the Express 30 performs quite well under a wide variety of
| conditions.

I found it did rather well in most conditions including light airs of which
there were plenty during our charter time frame in April.


|
| I think that off the wind, especially in choppy seas, the CR 38 would be
| faster... on a long passage it should be faster...
|
|
|
|
| Yes... faster than the Express 30.
|
| As I said under some conditions, it would be reasonable to expect that.
|
| But for all-round sailing? Let me put it this way... PHRF rating
| committees think that the CR 38 is noticably slower than the Express
| 30... enough so that they would rarely be in the same class.

The definition of "all around sailing" is too wide a mark. I would not
entertain the Express as an all around sailing boat unless all around
denoted buoy racing and an occasional week-end in calm weather. Then again a
canoe with a sail and outrigger would be suitable for that purpose.
|
| BTW the Cabo Rico 38 is a Mark Ellis design, right? He's noted for being
| able to design comfy boats that sail well... but he's not a magician!

I'm not certain of the designer.... I just know what impression the vessel
left me with... and had the opportunity to sail against several other larger
as well as smaller boats during our charter. It is indeed a very fast boat.

CM

Claiming that a CR 38 will do 11 knots is
a bit of a stretch, don't you think?


John, you know better than this.

RB

"John Cairns" wrote in message

| And, since there are any number of blue water cruisers of similar length
| that are considerably faster than a CR 38, I would be more likely to
| characterize the CR 38 as "slow". Claiming that a CR 38 will do 11 knots
is
| a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
| John Cairns

Well now John... since you've failed to provide a list of 38 foot vessels
that are faster... and I'm certain there are quite a few.... your point
seems contentious rather than clarifying.

I'm not certain what to make of the last part.... are you in effect
accusing me of fabrication or that the vessel is incapable of such speeds?

CM

and that could call for a larger boat.

Might not. If you had the proper boat to start with.


You mean I should have started with a Ted Hood 51?
Oh...

RB

"John Cairns" wrote

| And, since there are any number of blue water cruisers of similar length
| that are considerably faster than a CR 38, I would be more likely to
| characterize the CR 38 as "slow". Claiming that a CR 38 will do 11 knots
is
| a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
| John Cairns


Capt. Mooron wrote:
Well now John... since you've failed to provide a list of 38 foot vessels
that are faster... and I'm certain there are quite a few.... your point
seems contentious rather than clarifying.

Yeah, John, what are you tryin' to do... start an arument?!?


I'm not certain what to make of the last part.... are you in effect
accusing me of fabrication or that the vessel is incapable of such speeds?

Well, you did say you're not much of a "numbers" kind of guy.

I think that you're falling too much into the Boobsprit way of
thinking... that an Express 30 must be POS because... umm, because...
oh, I know: because you hear so much bad talk about it on the internet!
Actually it's very nice boat, hardly a lightweight around-the-bouys
racer, with probably more cabin space than your boat.

Personally, it seems unlikely to me that the CR 38 would beat an Express
30 under any circumstances unless you really stacked the deck to favor
it. OTOH it's a lot roomier and probably noticably more comfortable in a
chop.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King