"DSK" wrote in message
| Probably somewhere around 4 knots. I know of boats that can sail at 5.5
| or better, with a spinnaker, in 5 knots of true wind (hint... think
| apparent wind).

That must be one of those new radical Mac26M designs..... I understand they
can exceed the wind speed...apparent or not.

Nonetheless..... 5kts speed in 5 knots wind on an Express 30?? Bow Wave??
Think again. Maybe an International 14.

CM

"DSK" wrote
| ... I know of boats that can sail at 5.5
| or better, with a spinnaker, in 5 knots of true wind (hint... think
| apparent wind).


Capt. Mooron wrote:
That must be one of those new radical Mac26M designs..... I understand they
can exceed the wind speed...apparent or not.

Yeah, but the engine running kinda spoils that nice quiet peaceful effect.


Nonetheless..... 5kts speed in 5 knots wind on an Express 30??

That's not what I said. I don't think an Express 30 is going to hit 5 kt
in 5 knots true. Maybe.

... Bow Wave??
Think again. Maybe an International 14.

Or a Frers 30, or an Olson 30, or a Schock 30 GP, or a Quest 30, or a
Soverel 30, or a Santana 30, J-29, Laser 28... lots of boats. And that's
racer/cruisers, not getting into the race-only boats like the Melges 30,
J-90, or the Mumm 30. Or any multihulls

There's a whole world of non-crab-crushers out there. Not to say that
crab-crushers are bad, but you've got an eye-opening experience coming
if you think that a keel boat cannot make a bow wave off the wind in
light air.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

but you've got an eye-opening experience coming
if you think that a keel boat cannot make a bow wave off the wind in
light air.

The mooron would have an eye opening experience if his boat made a bow wave in
any condition.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Someone's feelings are hurt..... bwahahahahahahaaaa!!

CM

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
| but you've got an eye-opening experience coming
| if you think that a keel boat cannot make a bow wave off the wind in
| light air.
|
| The mooron would have an eye opening experience if his boat made a bow
wave in
| any condition.
| S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
| "No shirt, no skirt, full service"

"DSK" wrote in message

| There's a whole world of non-crab-crushers out there. Not to say that
| crab-crushers are bad, but you've got an eye-opening experience coming
| if you think that a keel boat cannot make a bow wave off the wind in
| light air.

Good Grief Doug.... it's not like I haven't sailed a few ULDBs in my
life.... but I certainly don't consider it a bow wave when it's actually a
ripple. I've owned a Laser and a Hobie 18... no bow wave... a small 2 inch
ripple maybe... but no wave I can assure you.

There is also the point to be made of bow entry and hull shape that has a
lot to do with how much of a visible disturbance your vessel makes
underway.....

CM

Capt. Mooron wrote:
Good Grief Doug.... it's not like I haven't sailed a few ULDBs in my
life.... but I certainly don't consider it a bow wave when it's actually a
ripple. I've owned a Laser and a Hobie 18... no bow wave... a small 2 inch
ripple maybe... but no wave I can assure you.

Heck, a Soverel 33 will move at 4 or 5 knots in almost no wind at all,
if well sailed. Maybe it's just making a ripple IYHO? Just a few
weekends ago I watched a Kirie Elite 30-something (looked to be about 35
feet) and a C&C 34+ tearing around the racecourse in winds of about 3
knots and chop.


There is also the point to be made of bow entry and hull shape that has a
lot to do with how much of a visible disturbance your vessel makes
underway.....

Yeah, there's that. But when the boat reaches some significant percent
of hull speed, it's going to making waves not ripples.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message

| Heck, a Soverel 33 will move at 4 or 5 knots in almost no wind at all,
| if well sailed. Maybe it's just making a ripple IYHO? Just a few
| weekends ago I watched a Kirie Elite 30-something (looked to be about 35
| feet) and a C&C 34+ tearing around the racecourse in winds of about 3
| knots and chop.

The hell you say..... 4 or 5 kts in no wind!!! Okay Doug.... put down the
Jack Daniels and back away from the bar!! ;-)
I have no experience with the Kirie Elite but I have been on a C&C 34 in
Vancouver. There is no way a C&C 34 can be described as "tearing around" at
3 knots... even with no chop!

| Yeah, there's that. But when the boat reaches some significant percent
| of hull speed, it's going to making waves not ripples.

Okay let's explore that point.... down wind with the wave train at let's
average it about a 2ft wave height and a 6 ft between crests. The boat is
doing lets say half an average hull speed [6kts]... on a dead downwind
run....so we'll call it 3 kts speed. The wave train is moving much faster
than that but can hardly be noticed on the 4 feet of freeboard. Now you mean
to tell me that you can see a bow wave in those conditions? Okay... maybe
when you come down onto a passing wave train.... but that's a momentary
situation.

To form a bow wave... I believe you need to be "pushing" water... not
parting it.

Anyhow... the floor is yours... I'll just stroll over to the bottle of Jack
Daniels here ;-)

CM

"Capt. Mooron" wrote

but I have been on a C&C 34 in
Vancouver. There is no way a C&C 34 can be described as "tearing around"
at
3 knots... even with no chop!

you don't know which year/model Doug was talking about, do ya?

Scotty

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message

| you don't know which year/model Doug was talking about, do ya?

Oh Crap... there I go again! I keep forgetting about that!

CM

"DSK" wrote
| Heck, a Soverel 33 will move at 4 or 5 knots in almost no wind at all,
| if well sailed. Maybe it's just making a ripple IYHO? Just a few
| weekends ago I watched a Kirie Elite 30-something (looked to be about 35
| feet) and a C&C 34+ tearing around the racecourse in winds of about 3
| knots and chop.


Capt. Mooron wrote:
The hell you say..... 4 or 5 kts in no wind!!! Okay Doug.... put down the
Jack Daniels and back away from the bar!! ;-)

No booze involved, not even American beer. The Soverel 33 is renowned as
a light-air speedster though, probably not a fair comparison. They make
a wake you can hear from 1/2 mile off on days when the wind is barely
enough to disturb cigarette smoke.


I have no experience with the Kirie Elite but I have been on a C&C 34 in
Vancouver. There is no way a C&C 34 can be described as "tearing around" at
3 knots... even with no chop!

It wasn't a C&C 34, it was the 34/36+ (or it might have been the 34/36
XL, not sure). Like this

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...oat_id=1193723

The boat rates around 90 PHRF, in other words more than a minute per
mile faster than your boat.


| Yeah, there's that. But when the boat reaches some significant percent
| of hull speed, it's going to making waves not ripples.

Okay let's explore that point.... down wind with the wave train at let's
average it about a 2ft wave height and a 6 ft between crests. The boat is
doing lets say half an average hull speed [6kts]... on a dead downwind
run....so we'll call it 3 kts speed.

Huh??? That's not at all how it works. The wave-making resistance of a
hull increases with her speed in proportion to her Froude number, which
is a fairly complex derivative.

But let's make it simple... a hull with a 30' waterline has a "hull
speed" of 7.3 knots... meaning that at that speed, the crests of her
wave train will be 30' apart and she will require tremendous amounts of
increased applied power to go faster. At roughly 2/3 that speed, or 4.4
knots, she will be making waves of half her waterline length.

They may not be very high but the bow wave will certainly have a curl or
breaking crest, the stern wave probably will too (although it's a well
regarded feature of "fast" boats to leave low & clean stern waves).

Now bump the speed down a notch or two... only ripples? Sorry, you need
to pay closer attention... stop sneaking beer into the classroom and put
down that girly magazine! Anyway, depending on the hull of course,
there's no way a displacement boat is going to move at 1/2 or even 1/3
of her hull speed, when wave-making resistance is definitely a factor,
and make "only ripples." Small waves... OK but not ripples.

Jack Daniels? You can have my share... I've been hiding a bottle of
single malt in the desk...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King