BoatBanter.com - Where Credit Is Due

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Joe	May 25th 04 05:13 PM

Where Credit Is Due

(Bobsprit) wrote in message ...
Is it not true, It was better to have loved and loss, than to not love
at all?

No. These hearts are ruined. Nothing has been gained. The couple deserved a
happy and healthy daughter.

Satan introduced sickness, pain, suffering and death into the creation
as a consequence of that first sin. And unlike God, Satan doesn't have
to be fair so these things affect even the innocent. Because it's no
longer "politically correct" to even acknowledge Satan's existence,
the only one left to blame is God. So with a considerable assist from
liberal theology, God gets all the blame, Satan gets off Scot Free,
and lost people everywhere cry "Why me?" without ever getting an
answer.

You need to look in a mirror Bob

First, when I say look in the mirror, I mean that most of us do more
in a day to diminish our physical and mental wellbeing than to enhance
it. Just look at your eating and exercise habits, the stress you
create and endure in the work place, the way you enslave yourselves to
materialism, the enormous load of debt and responsibility you carry,
and the way you suffer and cause suffering in your relationships.

A basic rule of architecture is that the weakness of any structure
will present itself under stress. The lifestyle we choose can be a
source of enormous stress, irrespective of how good we are, or of the
good things we do. And for some the very effort required to do and be
good is itself a source of stress. Psychologists know that stress
reduces our attention span, distracts us, angers us and makes us more
prone to accidents and illness. Any weakness in our physical and/or
mental structure will eventually present itself under stress.

Ready for Seconds?

Where did these weaknesses in our physical and mental structure come
from? The Book of Genesis tells us that Adam and Eve were created by a
direct act of God and in His image. He placed them in the Garden of
Eden and gave them only one rule. When they broke that rule, sin
entered into the world, and Satan became the spiritual power behind
events on earth (1 John 5:19).

It is Satan who brought all the pain and suffering into our world. And
it's the ongoing presence of sin that makes this possible. The bible
calls Satan the god of this age (2 Cor 4:4) and the prince of this
world (John 12:31, 14:30. 16:11), and asserts that the whole world is
under his control. We don't inhabit the world as God created it, but
the one contaminated by Satan's rebellion and Adam's sin. Because we
live here, and are descendants of Adam and Eve we suffer the
consequences of their sin, one of which is our own propensity for sin.
(According to Genesis 5:3 we are made in Adam's image.)

Truth or Consequences?

These sin consequences are so much a part of our reality that we
hardly question them. But consider this. Do you really believe a
perfect God deliberately created an imperfect image of Himself; an
image with the genetic disposition for disease and other physical and
mental malfunctions? That a Creator who is defined as the
personification of love designed us to hate those who are different?
Or caused those around us to withhold the love we so desperately need
so we would conclude that we're unlovable and end our own lives? Would
an eternal God create temporal children who get old and sick, fall
apart, die and go to hell while He lives on? Cause parents to beat,
abuse and abandon and even murder their own children; offspring of the
very process of procreation He had delegated to them in the first
place? Have you ever had to watch your child die? God has watched 6
BILLION of His die.

Bob he's God and You're Not

You say "But He's God. He can do anything He wants. He can stop this."
No He can't, and that's what makes Him God. He's not just some more
powerful version of us. He can't be arbitrary or capricious like we
are. He can't relieve us of the consequences of sin in the world. He
can love you enough to purchase a pardon for your sins (it took His
life) but He cant make you love Him enough to accept it. He has to be
just, He has to be fair, and He has to play by the rules. These rules
require Him to allow events that are not consistent with either His
pleasure or His desire. When His rules are broken (we call that sin)
He has to permit consequences.

Joe

No mercy from any god was issued or offered. Even
their marriage was destroyed.
God? No thanks.

RB

Navigator

May 25th 04 11:14 PM

Where Credit Is Due

Joe wrote:

Satan introduced sickness, pain, suffering and death into the creation
as a consequence of that first sin.

Aha! So gaining knowlege is a big sin. That explains a lot. Thanks.

Cheers

Donal

May 25th 04 11:43 PM

Where Credit Is Due

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
(Bobsprit) wrote in message
...
[snip]
You say "But He's God. He can do anything He wants. He can stop this."
No He can't, and that's what makes Him God. He's not just some more
powerful version of us. He can't be arbitrary or capricious like we
are. He can't relieve us of the consequences of sin in the world. He
can love you enough to purchase a pardon for your sins (it took His
life) but He cant make you love Him enough to accept it. He has to be
just, He has to be fair, and He has to play by the rules. These rules
require Him to allow events that are not consistent with either His
pleasure or His desire. When His rules are broken (we call that sin)
He has to permit consequences.

Joe, I suspect that you already know that I respect your views.

I may call you a redneck, but I do it with some respect!!

Good post.

Regards

Donal
--

Joe	May 26th 04 02:11 AM

Where Credit Is Due

Navigator wrote in message ...
Joe wrote:

Satan introduced sickness, pain, suffering and death into the creation
as a consequence of that first sin.

Aha! So gaining knowlege is a big sin. That explains a lot. Thanks.

Cheers

Who said **** about gaining knowledge Nav?

IMO both good and bad exist on this earth. Those that seek bad will
find it, those that seek good will find it.

knowledge is good and bad depending on how you use it.

Joe

Navigator

May 26th 04 04:01 AM

Where Credit Is Due

Joe wrote:
Navigator wrote in message ...

Joe wrote:

Satan introduced sickness, pain, suffering and death into the creation
as a consequence of that first sin.

Aha! So gaining knowlege is a big sin. That explains a lot. Thanks.

Cheers

Who said **** about gaining knowledge Nav?

Wasn't original sin consuming knowlege -a fruit in the metaphor?

Cheers

Vito	May 26th 04 02:07 PM

Where Credit Is Due

"Joe" wrote
Satan introduced sickness, pain, suffering and death into the creation
as a consequence of that first sin. ....

Not so Joe! In the original Genesis myth, the Elohim created everything
including Adam and Lillith, as equals in their own images. Elohim YHWH
wanted both as pets and, noting Adam's gullibility, he made Eden as an
enticing cage. Lillith refused, went off on her own and gave birth to sons
and daughters who later married Adam and Eve's kids. But Adam opted for the
easy life. He got horny but YHWH couldn't create life so he cloned Eve out
of Adam.

Satan was another Elohim who didn't approve of YHWH's schemes so he went to
visit Adam and discovered that YHWH had dishonestly told them that they
would die is they became wise and immortal - ie if they ate of the trees
that provided a knowledge of good and evil and of everlasting life. Satan
told Eve that YHWH had lied so she and Adam ate the fruit and came to know
that good and evil existed in the world. This freaked YHWH out! "Oy! What if
they also become immortal!? They'll be like Elohim, instead of like pets!!"
So he set up a mechanism "flaming sword" to assure that didn't happen.

That version was redacted to suit the patriarchal Hebrew society when it got
written into The Book of Moses and thence into the Old Testament but both
agree that Adam's punishment was having to work for a living and that Eve's
was painful childbirth - NOT sickness, pain, suffering and death. It was
your god YHWH who tried to keep Adam and his clone ignorant and it was YHWH,
not Satan, who forbid them everlasting life.(Gen 3:22, 23).

Adam and Eve's descendents must have inherited a double dose of Adam's
gullibility since Eve was his clone because they continually support
churches that claim to know good and evil and offer eternal life, the only
things their god (Elohim) forbid them to have. It follows that Judaism,
Christianity and Islam all do Satan's work - right? Meanwhile, children of
the Goddess, called Lillith and 100 other names, are spared this
foolishness.

You may note that this tale parallels evolution - peoples who stayed in
comfortable climes (the garden) never developed as far as those who left.
For example, nobody living in a paradise tamed elephants and horses.

katysails

May 26th 04 10:52 PM

Where Credit Is Due

Vito:
Much of the Old Testament, especially the first 5 books, are allegorical in
nature and not meant to be historical renderings or archives at all (watch
the fundamentalists squirm...). My own personal take on Adam and Eve and the
tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is this. Mankind evolved....one day he
(the universal "he") developed a conscience....whammo...good and evil now
exist in the mind of man....He can no longer live in innocence and naivety
but must be ever aware that there are consequences to every action and that
he is responsible...voila...he is now "different" than the other
animals....He is evolved....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Joe	May 27th 04 02:59 AM

Where Credit Is Due

"katysails" wrote in message ...
Vito:
Much of the Old Testament, especially the first 5 books, are allegorical in
nature and not meant to be historical renderings or archives at all (watch
the fundamentalists squirm...). My own personal take on Adam and Eve and the
tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is this. Mankind evolved....one day he
(the universal "he") developed a conscience....whammo...good and evil now
exist in the mind of man....He can no longer live in innocence and naivety
but must be ever aware that there are consequences to every action and that
he is responsible...voila...he is now "different" than the other
animals....He is evolved....

Well said Katy!

Joe

Joe	May 27th 04 03:02 AM

Where Credit Is Due

(Bobsprit) wrote in message ...
There are bigger things behind all that happens, of which we may not
be aware.

This is not a very clever response. So you're suggesting that this girl was
"tortured" by fate as part of some plan? Torture is a kind word in this case.
If there's a god, he's evil and cruel and stupid. Period.
Oh, and I've been saying this for 25 years and I've been pretty happy so far.
No keys to the pearly gates, right? BTW, those gates are made from murdered
oysters.

RB

Yeah and A pearl white paint job on my Chevy musta killed off a oyster reef.

Joe

Vito	May 27th 04 03:55 PM

Where Credit Is Due

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Vito:
Much of the Old Testament, especially the first 5 books, are allegorical
in
nature and not meant to be historical renderings or archives at all (watch
the fundamentalists squirm...).

True, but I doubt that the authors who redacted the original into the OT
version intended your interpretation. You may have read where Abraham whups
the robber-kings to save his brother? In the original version he returns all
the spoils to their owners. In the redacted version he first gives 10% to
the priest then the rest to its owners.

My own personal take on Adam and Eve and ....

Yes, it is sublime - the idea that mankind was forced out of Eden because we
discovered the notion of good vs evil that other animals lack, and have been
torturing ourselves and each other over it ever since. Most folks are too
busy acting it out to even notice the message.

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