Where Credit Is Due
 

If god is responsible for the world's beauty and wonder, then he must also be
behind the little girl who lives across the street. She was born badly deformed
with little use of her legs. Her kidneys are failing. In a cruel joke, her face
is beautiful and her mind sharp. She's 12 and her parents devote their dried up
resources to her final months. Their lives are ruined.
Terrorism
Cancer
racism
Earthquakes
hopeless love
Serial killers
Don King
George Bush
Hitler
Give god credit!!!! Great job. If he "does" exist and I ever see him, I'll kick
him in his holy balls for that little girl, for my mother, for everyone who
suffers pointlessly.
There's just NO evidence of any god, unless he IS Hitler.

RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

Where Credit Is Due
 

Is it not true, It was better to have loved and loss, than to not love
at all?

No. These hearts are ruined. Nothing has been gained. The couple deserved a
happy and healthy daughter. No mercy from any god was issued or offered. Even
their marriage was destroyed.
God? No thanks.

RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

There are bigger things behind all that happens, of which we may not
be aware.

This is not a very clever response. So you're suggesting that this girl was
"tortured" by fate as part of some plan? Torture is a kind word in this case.
If there's a god, he's evil and cruel and stupid. Period.
Oh, and I've been saying this for 25 years and I've been pretty happy so far.
No keys to the pearly gates, right? BTW, those gates are made from murdered
oysters.



RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

How would you know of beauty and wonder if you did not know ugliness &
hate?

Without "up" there would be no "down".


Ah yes. I've heard this ideal...the need for "horror." Sorry, I'm not having
it. The horror proves we are on our own and not part of some inexplicable plan.


RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

You need to read "A prayer for Owen Meany". It helps me to understand we all
have a place, and such handicaps are truely hidden strengths. My heart goes
out to such families, they are in my prayers.
"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
If god is responsible for the world's beauty and wonder, then he must also
be
behind the little girl who lives across the street. She was born badly
deformed
with little use of her legs. Her kidneys are failing. In a cruel joke, her
face
is beautiful and her mind sharp. She's 12 and her parents devote their
dried up
resources to her final months. Their lives are ruined.
Terrorism
Cancer
racism
Earthquakes
hopeless love
Serial killers
Don King
George Bush
Hitler
Give god credit!!!! Great job. If he "does" exist and I ever see him, I'll
kick
him in his holy balls for that little girl, for my mother, for everyone
who
suffers pointlessly.
There's just NO evidence of any god, unless he IS Hitler.

RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

You need to read "A prayer for Owen Meany".


Owen Meany is one of my favorite books EVER. I've read it a dozen times, nearly
as much as Garp. Nothing equals the brilliant creation of the Ellen Jamesians
in Irving's cast of characters, but Meany, Hestor the Molestor and that
Armadillo come close.

RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

My heart goes
out to such families, they are in my prayers.

Too bad it doesn't appear to help them.

RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

Somewhere along the way you may learn that life is not fair. Thank the good
Lord for the things you have and put some effort into helping those less
fortunate. Wipe those liberal, crocodile tears from your eyes. But since
you're a liberal, lip service and emoting are all you are capable of and all
you need to dampen your own feelings of guilt.

At least you're not blaming the poor girl's misfortune on George Bush - yet.
That poor girl probably got that way from the toxic environment you live in.
Car fumes, diesel smoke, grit, ozone, lead, sulphur, stress, EMF's - it's
all there. Are you going to raise your kid in your little apartment? What
will ever come of your vast home theater system?

BC

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Is it not true, It was better to have loved and loss, than to not love
at all?

No. These hearts are ruined. Nothing has been gained. The couple deserved
a
happy and healthy daughter. No mercy from any god was issued or offered.
Even
their marriage was destroyed.
God? No thanks.

RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

Without "up" there would be no "down".



No highs, no lows... It must be BOSE!

How true...all midrange and thump!

RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

Somewhere along the way you may learn that life is not fair.


Wow, BC. Brilliant and utterly off topic. Good grief.

RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

That poor girl probably got that way from the toxic environment you live in.
Car fumes, diesel smoke, grit, ozone, lead, sulphur, stress, EMF's

The girl was born in Trinidad and her defect was a genetic problem, not keyed
into environment factors.
Great diagnosis, BC!

RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

Are you going to raise your kid in your little apartment?

My "little apartment" has three bedrooms, two bathrooms, a dining room, living
room and a balcony. We have Forest Park in walking distance with miles of trail
and sailing on the LIS is just 15 minutes away. That said, we will be moving
closer to the water soon, but that's for me! We've decided to buy a big boat
down the road and a small condo instead of a house. More fun and less work in
the long run.

RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

Bobsprit wrote:

Without "up" there would be no "down".




No highs, no lows... It must be BOSE!

How true...all midrange and thump!


Don't be crude. My old Bose sound very nice.

Cheers

Where Credit Is Due
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
If god is responsible for the world's beauty and wonder, then he must also
be
behind the little girl who lives across the street.

[snip tragic story]

Bob! I'm astonished! You can still shock me.

How low can you stoop? Are there NO depths to which you will not sink?

What kind of person would (ab)use a child's suffering to score points on
Usenet?



Regards


Donal
--

Where Credit Is Due
 

What kind of person would (ab)use a child's suffering to score points on
Usenet?

Donal, the child does not exist. It was an example. Fer cripes sake, man! Snap
out of it already.

RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

Good Gracious Man...... not another LIE?????

Stop The Insanity!!!

CM


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| What kind of person would (ab)use a child's suffering to score points on
| Usenet?
|
| Donal, the child does not exist. It was an example. Fer cripes sake, man!
Snap
| out of it already.
|
| RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

Good Gracious Man...... not another LIE?????


An obvious example. There are 10's of thousands. It's not a joke and not
something you should be trolling about.

RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
What kind of person would (ab)use a child's suffering to score points on
Usenet?

Donal, the child does not exist.


When did she pass away?


Regards


Donal
--

Where Credit Is Due
 

That's right Mr PhD in economics! Sink it all into a depreciating asset and
minimize the effects of a highly leveraged write off with tax advantages
that are a gift!

Live for today for tomorrow may never come!

Did the Bimbo come with a huge dowry?

BC

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Are you going to raise your kid in your little apartment?

My "little apartment" has three bedrooms, two bathrooms, a dining room,
living
room and a balcony. We have Forest Park in walking distance with miles of
trail
and sailing on the LIS is just 15 minutes away. That said, we will be
moving
closer to the water soon, but that's for me! We've decided to buy a big
boat
down the road and a small condo instead of a house. More fun and less work
in
the long run.

RB

Where Credit Is Due
 

Where Credit Is Due
 

Joe wrote:



Satan introduced sickness, pain, suffering and death into the creation
as a consequence of that first sin.


Aha! So gaining knowlege is a big sin. That explains a lot. Thanks.

Cheers

Where Credit Is Due
 

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
(Bobsprit) wrote in message
...
[snip]
You say "But He's God. He can do anything He wants. He can stop this."
No He can't, and that's what makes Him God. He's not just some more
powerful version of us. He can't be arbitrary or capricious like we
are. He can't relieve us of the consequences of sin in the world. He
can love you enough to purchase a pardon for your sins (it took His
life) but He cant make you love Him enough to accept it. He has to be
just, He has to be fair, and He has to play by the rules. These rules
require Him to allow events that are not consistent with either His
pleasure or His desire. When His rules are broken (we call that sin)
He has to permit consequences.


Joe, I suspect that you already know that I respect your views.

I may call you a redneck, but I do it with some respect!!

Good post.



Regards


Donal
--

Where Credit Is Due
 

Navigator wrote in message ...
Joe wrote:



Satan introduced sickness, pain, suffering and death into the creation
as a consequence of that first sin.


Aha! So gaining knowlege is a big sin. That explains a lot. Thanks.

Cheers

Who said **** about gaining knowledge Nav?

IMO both good and bad exist on this earth. Those that seek bad will
find it, those that seek good will find it.

knowledge is good and bad depending on how you use it.

Joe

Where Credit Is Due
 

Joe wrote:
Navigator wrote in message ...

Joe wrote:



Satan introduced sickness, pain, suffering and death into the creation
as a consequence of that first sin.


Aha! So gaining knowlege is a big sin. That explains a lot. Thanks.

Cheers


Who said **** about gaining knowledge Nav?



Wasn't original sin consuming knowlege -a fruit in the metaphor?

Cheers

Where Credit Is Due
 

"Joe" wrote
Satan introduced sickness, pain, suffering and death into the creation
as a consequence of that first sin. ....

Not so Joe! In the original Genesis myth, the Elohim created everything
including Adam and Lillith, as equals in their own images. Elohim YHWH
wanted both as pets and, noting Adam's gullibility, he made Eden as an
enticing cage. Lillith refused, went off on her own and gave birth to sons
and daughters who later married Adam and Eve's kids. But Adam opted for the
easy life. He got horny but YHWH couldn't create life so he cloned Eve out
of Adam.

Satan was another Elohim who didn't approve of YHWH's schemes so he went to
visit Adam and discovered that YHWH had dishonestly told them that they
would die is they became wise and immortal - ie if they ate of the trees
that provided a knowledge of good and evil and of everlasting life. Satan
told Eve that YHWH had lied so she and Adam ate the fruit and came to know
that good and evil existed in the world. This freaked YHWH out! "Oy! What if
they also become immortal!? They'll be like Elohim, instead of like pets!!"
So he set up a mechanism "flaming sword" to assure that didn't happen.

That version was redacted to suit the patriarchal Hebrew society when it got
written into The Book of Moses and thence into the Old Testament but both
agree that Adam's punishment was having to work for a living and that Eve's
was painful childbirth - NOT sickness, pain, suffering and death. It was
your god YHWH who tried to keep Adam and his clone ignorant and it was YHWH,
not Satan, who forbid them everlasting life.(Gen 3:22, 23).

Adam and Eve's descendents must have inherited a double dose of Adam's
gullibility since Eve was his clone because they continually support
churches that claim to know good and evil and offer eternal life, the only
things their god (Elohim) forbid them to have. It follows that Judaism,
Christianity and Islam all do Satan's work - right? Meanwhile, children of
the Goddess, called Lillith and 100 other names, are spared this
foolishness.

You may note that this tale parallels evolution - peoples who stayed in
comfortable climes (the garden) never developed as far as those who left.
For example, nobody living in a paradise tamed elephants and horses.

Where Credit Is Due
 

Vito:
Much of the Old Testament, especially the first 5 books, are allegorical in
nature and not meant to be historical renderings or archives at all (watch
the fundamentalists squirm...). My own personal take on Adam and Eve and the
tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is this. Mankind evolved....one day he
(the universal "he") developed a conscience....whammo...good and evil now
exist in the mind of man....He can no longer live in innocence and naivety
but must be ever aware that there are consequences to every action and that
he is responsible...voila...he is now "different" than the other
animals....He is evolved....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Where Credit Is Due
 

"katysails" wrote in message ...
Vito:
Much of the Old Testament, especially the first 5 books, are allegorical in
nature and not meant to be historical renderings or archives at all (watch
the fundamentalists squirm...). My own personal take on Adam and Eve and the
tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is this. Mankind evolved....one day he
(the universal "he") developed a conscience....whammo...good and evil now
exist in the mind of man....He can no longer live in innocence and naivety
but must be ever aware that there are consequences to every action and that
he is responsible...voila...he is now "different" than the other
animals....He is evolved....


Well said Katy!


Joe

Where Credit Is Due
 

Where Credit Is Due
 

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Vito:
Much of the Old Testament, especially the first 5 books, are allegorical
in
nature and not meant to be historical renderings or archives at all (watch
the fundamentalists squirm...).

True, but I doubt that the authors who redacted the original into the OT
version intended your interpretation. You may have read where Abraham whups
the robber-kings to save his brother? In the original version he returns all
the spoils to their owners. In the redacted version he first gives 10% to
the priest then the rest to its owners.

My own personal take on Adam and Eve and ....

Yes, it is sublime - the idea that mankind was forced out of Eden because we
discovered the notion of good vs evil that other animals lack, and have been
torturing ourselves and each other over it ever since. Most folks are too
busy acting it out to even notice the message.

Where Credit Is Due
 

"Vito" wrote in message
...
"katysails" wrote in message
...

True, but I doubt that the authors who redacted the original into the OT
version intended your interpretation. You may have read where Abraham whups
the robber-kings to save his brother? In the original version he returns all
the spoils to their owners. In the redacted version he first gives 10% to
the priest then the rest to its owners.


I'm curious, where can I get a copy of the "original" version?

Where Credit Is Due
 

Jeff Morris wrote:
I'm curious, where can I get a copy of the "original" version?

I'm also curious about where the Book of Genesis mentions Lillith.

DSK

Where Credit Is Due
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Jeff Morris wrote:
I'm curious, where can I get a copy of the "original" version?

I'm also curious about where the Book of Genesis mentions Lillith.


Lilith is never mentioned in The Bible (except possibly in Isaiah, but there it
is translated as "great owl"). There is a Lilith mentioned in the Talmud,
seeming a recasting of an old Babylonian myth, of a winged nymphomaniac mother
of demons, but she is never mentioned in the context of Genesis. And there is a
midrash about a first Eve, but she is not associated with Lilith, and there is
no way of knowing if it is an ancient (pre-biblical) tale or made up when it was
written, roughly in the third century, or shortly thereafter.

The two stories got combined in the 10th century "Alphabet of Ben Sira" (a very
odd work, possibly a parody or even an anti-Semitic satire) and then get picked
up in later Kabalistic works. However, there is no evidence that this was
actually part of an "original" bible.

Where Credit Is Due
 

Navigator


Wasn't original sin consuming knowlege -a fruit in the metaphor?

Cheers

Perhaps,

i always saw the original sin as an act of definace more than a quest
for knowledge on adams part.

joe

Where Credit Is Due
 

On Thu, 27 May 2004 12:10:53 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
wrote this crap:


True, but I doubt that the authors who redacted the original into the OT
version intended your interpretation. You may have read where Abraham whups
the robber-kings to save his brother? In the original version he returns all
the spoils to their owners. In the redacted version he first gives 10% to
the priest then the rest to its owners.


I'm curious, where can I get a copy of the "original" version?


I have an original, and it's autographed by the author.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Where Credit Is Due
 

On Thu, 27 May 2004 13:27:14 -0400, DSK wrote
this crap:

Jeff Morris wrote:
I'm curious, where can I get a copy of the "original" version?

I'm also curious about where the Book of Genesis mentions Lillith.

It doesn't.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Where Credit Is Due
 

Joe wrote:

Navigator

Wasn't original sin consuming knowlege -a fruit in the metaphor?

Cheers


Perhaps,

i always saw the original sin as an act of definace more than a quest
for knowledge on adams part.


God threw out his children for minor defiance? What a terrible parent.

Cheers

Where Credit Is Due
 

I'm curious, where can I get a copy of the "original" version?

The Torah...the first 5 books of the Bible....the Hebrew is much different
than the translation and has been much edited to suit the politics of
following generations....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Where Credit Is Due
 

God threw out his children for minor defiance? What a terrible parent.

God did not throw them out...they threw themselves out by the consequences
of their own actions....stop looking at the story and start looking at the
message...if you do evil, you are punished....before "original sin", man had
no concept of evil, just like a dog or cow or salamander doesn't have a
concept of evil....lower animals know danger and fear, but evil is not
something they deal with....they do not make moral or ethical
decisions....sometimes I think it would have been better if we hadn't
evolved....we'd certainly be a happier lot....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Where Credit Is Due
 

I mispoke...the Talmud, not the Torah....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein