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katysails wrote: God threw out his children for minor defiance? What a terrible parent. God did not throw them out...they threw themselves out by the consequences of their own actions....stop looking at the story and start looking at the message...if you do evil, you are punished.. So, knowlege _is_ evil to the believers? Cheeers |
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So, knowlege _is_ evil to the believers?
Np...knowledge is not evil...it is what a person with free will does with the knowledge that can become evil....knowledge is a tool that can be used for either good or evil.... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
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katysails wrote: So, knowlege _is_ evil to the believers? Np...knowledge is not evil...it is what a person with free will does with the knowledge that can become evil....knowledge is a tool that can be used for either good or evil.... So why was eating fruit from the tree of knowledge forbidden? Cheers |
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MC asked: So why was eating fruit from the tree of knowledge forbidden?
For the love a....there was NO fruit...it's an allegory....what it indicates is that since mankind now had the ability to choose...because he now had a conscience...life would become much more difficult....he would be affected by his actions....he would have to think about everything and make plans....he would have to weigh judgments....life became more complicated as soon as man eveolved into sentience... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
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Apple is not fruit?
S "katysails" wrote For the love a....there was NO fruit... |
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"katysails" wrote in message ... I'm curious, where can I get a copy of the "original" version? The Torah...the first 5 books of the Bible....the Hebrew is much different than the translation and has been much edited to suit the politics of following generations.... Yes, of course anyone interested in the earliest version of the writings goes to the original Hebrew, considered essentially unmodified for about 2500 years. Unfortunately, a small number of the words have lost their meanings over the years and translators have to guess at the meanings. The most accurate English transplantation is the JPS Tanakh (the Hebrew acronym for the Old Testament) though the KJV is still the most poetic. There is a form of biblical study called the "Documentary Hypothesis" that tries to unravel the actual authors of the various parts of the Torah. The basic idea is that the southern kingdom, Judah had their bible, written by an author designation "J" because they referred to God as "Jehovah," and the northern kingdom had their version, called "E" for "Elohim." There is much "politics" contained in the various parts, for instance, in J Jacob gives his birthright to Judah, but in E, Joseph gets the double portion, and Jacob overrides Joseph's wish that Manasseh should be favored by declaring that Ephraim will be greater. Ephraim happened to contain the capital of the northern kingdom, and was the tribe of the northern king. When the northern kingdom was conquered and refugees streamed south, J and E got combined in a way the was not complimentary to the Priests, so they wrote their own version, P, which includes the famous "First Creation" in Genesis, half of the Noah story, "updates" on lots of the JE stories, plus all the stuff about sacrifices. D (Deuteronomy) got added on later, as part of the historical books that follow the Torah. This all got combined by the "redactor," R, possibly Ezra, about 500 BCE. Anyone interested in this stuff should read "Who Wrote the Bible?" by Richard Elliott Freidman. BTW, none of this is the "original version" Vito is claiming knowledge of - I'm still waiting for that. |
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"Jeff Morris" wrote
I'm curious, where can I get a copy of the "original" version? I'm not sure you'll find an easy to read one-on-one version because it is by definition heretical. Parts have come to light in recently discovered manuscripts that predate the Pentateuch, and more come to light every day. These are often in archiac languages that use symbols for words and ideas instead of an aphabet, making translation at once difficult and unreliable. You'll have to search them out then search thru them. That's half the fun. Try a search on www.dogpile.com. Research http://www.mindspring.com/~bab5/BIB/lessons.htm , http://www.probe.org/menus/wp-theol.html , http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/g...gion/index.htm , and especially http://ancienthistory.about.com/libr...slegends1a.htm There is or used to be a group of serious scholors on the internet but they were forced from site to site by rabid Christians posting their dogmatic myths and I no longer know where to fimd them. Definately read http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theed..._Xty.htm#X_ONE and http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/lil_alt-myth.html There'll be an exam next Thursday so study hard (c: |
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The Talmud is not "the original bible," it is a series of discussions by rabbis
compiled during the second through sixth centuries. Actually, there are two versions, one called the Jerusalem Talmud, the other the Babylonian Talmud. These, together with a few other compilations, form the Rabbinic Writings that are the basis for modern Judaism. The Talmud is layered on top of the "Mishna," the "Oral Teachings" of Moses, which traditionally is just as important as the written teachings (the Torah). The Mishna was written down about 200 CE, and this started the process of commentary that became the Talmud. However, it is often hard to tell what parts of the Talmud are actually ancient traditions, and what was more contemporary. Given that the Talmud was compiled roughly a thousand years after the Torah was written down, its real hard to claim it pre-dated the Bible in any sense. The scope of the Talmud is vast, covering all aspects of life, some parts still seem fresh today, other parts were already archaic when it was compiled. "katysails" wrote in message ... I mispoke...the Talmud, not the Torah.... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
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"DSK" wrote
I'm also curious about where the Book of Genesis mentions Lillith. IIRC neither the Book of Genesis found in xian bibles nor the Pentateuch mentions Lillith (You'll have to look to their precursors). That's understandable. Remember, very ancient peoples and even some fairly modern ones (eg Australian Aboriginies) had yet to discover the male role in procreation and instead believed the female spontaniously created life. Hence their primary gods were female and their societies matrilineal. The change to patriarchal gods and societies was still underway when the Hebrew version that became the basis of Genesis was redacted from earlier creation myths so Lillith became a demon vs a goddess. Read the examples I offered to Jeff. |
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Sorry Vito. You've just moved yourself to the head of the **** list with that
one. Recommending the works of a white supremacist, racist, anti-Semite as a "must read" doesn't win you any points here. Theedrich's site may be required reading at David Duke University, but I can hardly accept him as a scholarly source. "Vito" wrote in message ... Definately read http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theed..._Xty.htm#X_ONE and |
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Katie,
Ole Thom here with question about evil? Are you saying there was no Evil until man gained Knowledge? OT |
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Scotty,
Tnere was no apple...there was no tree...there was no serpent....it is an ALLEGORY...it is SYMBOLISM..... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
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Are you saying there was no Evil until man gained Knowledge?
OT Not for man...if there was some other sentient being hanging around from somewhere else, they may have known evil....a dog that bites is not evil....a bear that tears apart a cabin is not evil...a lion that kills his opponents kittens to establish his own pride is not evil....if man did these things, he would be evil -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
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On Fri, 28 May 2004 10:39:45 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
wrote this crap: There is a form of biblical study called the "Documentary Hypothesis" that tries to unravel the actual authors of the various parts of the Torah. The basic idea is that the southern kingdom, Judah had their bible, written by an author designation "J" because they referred to God as "Jehovah," and the northern kingdom had their version, called "E" for "Elohim." There is much "politics" There is no letter E in ancient Hebrew. Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now! |
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On Fri, 28 May 2004 10:51:18 -0400, "Vito" wrote
this crap: "Jeff Morris" wrote I'm curious, where can I get a copy of the "original" version? I'm not sure you'll find an easy to read one-on-one version because it is by definition heretical. Parts have come to light in recently discovered manuscripts that predate the Pentateuch, and more come to light every day. These are often in archiac languages that use symbols for words and ideas instead of an aphabet, making translation at once difficult and unreliable. You'll have to search them out then search thru them. That's half the fun. You are correct. I know because I have an original version, and it's signed by the author. Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now! |
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Really? is the part about Eves' first bath and why fish smell also an
ALLEGORY? Scotty "katysails" wrote in message ... Scotty, Tnere was no apple...there was no tree...there was no serpent....it is an ALLEGORY...it is SYMBOLISM..... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
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Katie,
Then can I conclude that EVIL came with Knowledge. If that is true then EVIL has to be the invention of MAN. GOD & DEVIL draw a bye on EVIL OT |
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"Joe" wrote in message | knowledge is good and bad depending on how you use it. Maybe you meant to say Knowledge is neither Good nor Bad........ It's use on the other hand........... .....well that's neither good nor bad either depending which side you are on! CM |
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"Scott Vernon" wrote in message | Apple is not fruit? Not unless it's first name is 'Bob'...... CM |
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"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ... | Katie, | | Then can I conclude that EVIL came with Knowledge. If that is true then | EVIL has to be the invention of MAN. GOD & DEVIL draw a bye on EVIL That's true Thom...... knowledge carries it's own curse..... to know better and yet act as if you didn't is the real sin.... isn't it? To know better and act despite the facts to your own self interest.... is that a sin? OOPS .... is that "wrong"?? Should we all behave "Alturistic" ???? CM |
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CM,
I think what Kate is saying; Before Man had Knowledge his actions were pre-determined. With knowledge his actions became a choose. His own. It was man that made rules to make it Good or EVIL I can buy into that. Ole Thom |
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And so, about God Nutsy,
Creation; How did it happen? Not that it matters. It happened. So, there was something there that caused the Emanation to form Creation. What ever that immanation came from that to me is God, or what ever you want to call it. I don't know what it is. It sure isn't the god of Earth's organized Religions but since don't know what it is, I have no right to tell anyone they are wrong;---- THERE IS A GOD, God exists in my faith. Screw you and your agnostic nature EVIL is the invention of Man, not God. That poor child was an invention of yours and was, if it would have been real, was the results of man's breeding You don't believe in a God but you sure as hell believe in his faults. So, my friend, if you don't believe how can you fault God. You are one of those human who invent EVIL Ole Thom P/S You, Susy and the Baby are in my Prayers nightly. May you be Blessed |
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Scotty asked: is the part about Eves' first bath and why fish smell also an ALLEGORY? No...that's just pure conjecture.... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
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Thom asked:
Then can I conclude that EVIL came with Knowledge No... evil always existed as a potential wherever there is free will....without a conscience, man did not have free will....once a conscience developed, he chose to do evil freely.... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
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THom said: I think what Kate is saying; Before Man had Knowledge his actions
were pre-determined No way.....nothing is pre-determined or for that matter, pre-destined. Before that, man had the moral consciousness of any other animal... And then Thom said: It was man that made rules to make it Good or EVIL Nope...the rules were in place before man gained a conscience...he just didn't have to play by them yet.... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
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What has conscience to do with free will?
Cheers katysails wrote: Thom asked: Then can I conclude that EVIL came with Knowledge No... evil always existed as a potential wherever there is free will....without a conscience, man did not have free will....once a conscience developed, he chose to do evil freely.... |
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But Kook it said fruit. Are you saying it's all lies?
Cheers katysails wrote: MC asked: So why was eating fruit from the tree of knowledge forbidden? For the love a....there was NO fruit...it's an allegory....what it indicates is that since mankind now had the ability to choose...because he now had a conscience...life would become much more difficult....he would be affected by his actions....he would have to think about everything and make plans....he would have to weigh judgments....life became more complicated as soon as man eveolved into sentience... |
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perhaps Katy meant to say, "consciousness"?
Scout "Navigator" wrote in message ... What has conscience to do with free will? Cheers katysails wrote: Thom asked: Then can I conclude that EVIL came with Knowledge No... evil always existed as a potential wherever there is free will....without a conscience, man did not have free will....once a conscience developed, he chose to do evil freely.... |
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MC asked:
What has conscience to do with free will? Everything -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
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MC asked:
But Kook it said fruit. Are you saying it's all lies? Allegories are not lies...they are lessons....they are symbolic.... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
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So they shouldn't be taken literally? So if it says you should not steal
it's OK to steal sometimes? Cheers katysails wrote: MC asked: But Kook it said fruit. Are you saying it's all lies? Allegories are not lies...they are lessons....they are symbolic.... |
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Sorry Kate,
You really hit a sour note with the statement; "Nothing is pre-determined." You better think that one over again. Death came to my thoughts as soon as I read your post. Everyone dies! Even Christ died when he had a human body. Night and day are pre-determined in our life on earth by the rotation. We have a pre-determined amount of water on this earth. There are many, many things that are pre-determined. Think about them. What was the other--oh yeah! The rules were all in place before man had a conscience. That being the case, why was it necessary for Moses to be given the "Ten Commandants?" Why oh why have there been so many Judges and Lawyers in this World of our? Ole Thom |
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Nav, you're better at playing smart than you are at playing dumb!
Scout "Navigator" wrote in message ... So they shouldn't be taken literally? So if it says you should not steal it's OK to steal sometimes? Cheers katysails wrote: MC asked: But Kook it said fruit. Are you saying it's all lies? Allegories are not lies...they are lessons....they are symbolic.... |
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On Mon, 31 May 2004 21:37:47 -0700, (Thom Stewart)
wrote this crap: Sorry Kate, You really hit a sour note with the statement; "Nothing is pre-determined." You better think that one over again. Death came to my thoughts as soon as I read your post. Everyone dies! Not really. I know plenty of people that aren't dead. Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now! |
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MC asked;
So they shouldn't be taken literally? So if it says you should not steal it's OK to steal sometimes? MC...quit being a shrew...you know as well as I do that certain books of the Old Testament are allegorical, some are genealogical, and some historical. Some of the history is laden with with epic events, some of those allegorical in nature. You make a very poor Devil's Advocate. And if there is a lesson taught in an allegory, it is a truism no less than if it is a lesson taught through history. -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
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Thom said: Death came to my thoughts
Death is a natural course of events...it is not a pre-determination. No one points a finger and says "This guy goes on June 22, 2005". That would be pre=determination. -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
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Death is a natural course of events...it is not a pre-determination.
Good lord. Another English failure. Main Entry: pre·de·ter·mine 1 a : FOREORDAIN, PREDESTINE b : to determine beforehand 2 : to impose a direction or tendency on beforehand Living things tend to die. Katie, the word has a meaning, quite specific and not subject to your voodoo. Natural course or not, death IS predetermined. Now go sacrifice a chicken and take 3rd grade English again. RB |
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I think you want to re-read Thom's post. I know most of the people you
hang with are dead, but that's not the point. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Horvath" wrote in message ... On Mon, 31 May 2004 21:37:47 -0700, (Thom Stewart) wrote this crap: Sorry Kate, You really hit a sour note with the statement; "Nothing is pre-determined." You better think that one over again. Death came to my thoughts as soon as I read your post. Everyone dies! Not really. I know plenty of people that aren't dead. Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now! |
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It is predetermined. You just aren't given a specific date.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "katysails" wrote in message ... Thom said: Death came to my thoughts Death is a natural course of events...it is not a pre-determination. No one points a finger and says "This guy goes on June 22, 2005". That would be pre=determination. -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
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Hor-vat,
You know NO ONE who isn't going to die! IT IS PRE-DETERMINED!! Ole Thom |
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