"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

Hello,

I am an "alien" as you americans like to call us. I'm even worse an
"undesirable alien" because your government won't give me a visa because of
a book I wrote.

However, I wish to buy a second-hand boat from a gentleman in New York. He
currently has the boat registered under a US flag. Will I be able to keep
the boat under US flag? I intend to live aboard and sail indefinitely, so
will have no fixed abode so no logical country to register the boat. It
would make things much simpler therefore if I just kept it under US flag.
Would this be permitted, given that I am an "undesirable alien" and do not
have an address in the USA?

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:30:30 +0100, "Ric" wrote this
crap:

Hello,

I am an "alien" as you americans like to call us.

What planet are you from? Does your finger cure sickness? Do you
phone home?






This signature is now the ultimate power in the universe

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

Curious...we're supposed to have free speech here in Amerika, so why would
they call you "undesirable" unless you were hitting on the immigrations
chick? What book is this that has banned you? I may want to buy it.


"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:30:30 +0100, "Ric" wrote this
crap:

Hello,

I am an "alien" as you americans like to call us.

What planet are you from? Does your finger cure sickness? Do you
phone home?






This signature is now the ultimate power in the universe

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

"Free Rider" wrote in message
...
Curious...we're supposed to have free speech here in Amerika, so why would
they call you "undesirable" unless you were hitting on the immigrations
chick? What book is this that has banned you? I may want to buy it.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...391212-5292618

There is an arrest warrant for me in the UK for publishing this book. As a
result, the USA will not give me a visa, since they depend on UK to back
them up when they invade other countries, and so do them favours in return
like making life difficult for me.

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

I believe that documenting a vessel in the US is a privilege of US citizenship.
If that is true, you will have to let the documentation lapse. You may still be
able to register it in a state of the US, but that could cause problems if you
travel outside the US.

Here's the site, read the FAQ:
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/nvdc.htm



"Ric" wrote in message
...
Hello,

I am an "alien" as you americans like to call us. I'm even worse an
"undesirable alien" because your government won't give me a visa because of
a book I wrote.

However, I wish to buy a second-hand boat from a gentleman in New York. He
currently has the boat registered under a US flag. Will I be able to keep
the boat under US flag? I intend to live aboard and sail indefinitely, so
will have no fixed abode so no logical country to register the boat. It
would make things much simpler therefore if I just kept it under US flag.
Would this be permitted, given that I am an "undesirable alien" and do not
have an address in the USA?

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
I believe that documenting a vessel in the US is a privilege of US
citizenship.
If that is true, you will have to let the documentation lapse. You may
still be
able to register it in a state of the US, but that could cause problems if
you
travel outside the US.

Here's the site, read the FAQ:
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/nvdc.htm

Thanks, I've emailed the USCG to ask their advice.

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

oh, so you broke British law, they wish to arrest you for breaking British law
and you are upset that the US won't give a visa to a known criminal?

How dastardly.


http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/.../-/1903813018/
new/ref%3Dsdp%5Fnewb/202-9391212-5292618

There is an arrest warrant for me in the UK for publishing this book. As a
result, the USA will not give me a visa, since they depend on UK to back
them up when they invade other countries, and so do them favours in return
like making life difficult for me.

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

I believe that documenting a vessel in the US is a privilege of US
citizenship.

that is a fact. non citizens are not even allowed to use documented boats
unless a citizen is aboard

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oh, so you broke British law, they wish to arrest you for breaking British
law
and you are upset that the US won't give a visa to a known criminal?

How dastardly.

I didn't say I was upset. I actually find it rather amusing that the US and
UK are so annoyed about my book. And even more satisfying when uptight
people like you brand me a criminal!

But by your logic, all the american women who take their bikini tops off
(oooh how naughty) and sip beer (gasp!) on Pampelonne beach in St Tropez
should automatically be arrested by the French police, as that is against
Amerikan law.

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

Well,

I'm not an 'undesirable alien', but I've just recently (three weeks ago) bought a US registered boat
(lying in Georgia). I was meaning to sail the boat along the East Coast to Newport, before crossing
the Atlantic to my 'home country' (Belgium).
I was informed by a Flemish counterpart of the ASA that there would be no VAT (Value Added Tax: 21%
!!!!) due because the boat was built in 1984. Once I got to cutting through the red tape to get the
boat registered in Belgium, it turned out to be that ... I will have to pay this additional 21%
(where on earth is the "added value"?).
Because I don't want to save the Belgian economy all by myself, I've decided, with pain in my heart,
to re-sell the boat.
Should anyone be interested ... http://plastiekske.tripod.com/ForSale
Asking price: US$72500 because I want to make a quick sale (I've paid US$74500, which already was
IMO a bargain)

Frank

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

This is why I am trying to determine under what flag I can register the boat
I intend to buy. I wish to buy the boat then sail it indefinitely. I don't
intend to "import" it anywhere - for a start where too? I am an NZ citizen,
but haven't lived there for 35 years and have no connections there at all
anymore. I currently reside in France, but will have no more connections to
France once I am on the boat. Where do I therefore register to? Country of
birth? Country of last residence? Neither NZ or France would allow that as I
have no address in either country. Or keep the existing registration (which
seems impossible)? Or can I register it under a flag of convenience like
Panama?

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

Buy it somewhere else - we don't need you business if you have no respect
for your freedom.

This is why I am trying to determine under what flag I can register the
boat
I intend to buy. I wish to buy the boat then sail it indefinitely. I don't
intend to "import" it anywhere - for a start where too? I am an NZ
citizen,
but haven't lived there for 35 years and have no connections there at all
anymore. I currently reside in France, but will have no more connections
to
France once I am on the boat. Where do I therefore register to? Country of
birth? Country of last residence? Neither NZ or France would allow that as
I
have no address in either country. Or keep the existing registration
(which
seems impossible)? Or can I register it under a flag of convenience like
Panama?

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
et...

Buy it somewhere else - we don't need you business if you have no respect
for your freedom.

What a wacko. The gentleman I intend to buy it from wants my business.

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

breaking the Official Secrets Act in Britain is considered a very serious
offense.

Not hardly the same catagory as a bare tit here.

You did the crime, dude. And you knew it. Yo expect the world to applaud you?

I didn't say I was upset. I actually find it rather amusing that the US and
UK are so annoyed about my book. And even more satisfying when uptight
people like you brand me a criminal!

But by your logic, all the american women who take their bikini tops off
(oooh how naughty) and sip beer (gasp!) on Pampelonne beach in St Tropez
should automatically be arrested by the French police, as that is against
Amerikan law.

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

"Registered" boats a non-citizen can own and operate. "Documented" they can
not.

Well,

I'm not an 'undesirable alien', but I've just recently (three weeks ago)
bought a US registered boat
(lying in Georgia). I was meaning to sail the boat along the East Coast to
Newport, before crossing
the Atlantic to my 'home country' (Belgium).
I was informed by a Flemish counterpart of the ASA that there would be no VAT
(Value Added Tax: 21%
!!!!) due because the boat was built in 1984. Once I got to cutting through
the red tape to get the
boat registered in Belgium, it turned out to be that ... I will have to pay
this additional 21%
(where on earth is the "added value"?).
Because I don't want to save the Belgian economy all by myself, I've decided,
with pain in my heart,
to re-sell the boat.
Should anyone be interested ... http://plastiekske.tripod.com/ForSale
Asking price: US$72500 because I want to make a quick sale (I've paid
US$74500, which already was
IMO a bargain)

Frank

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

no flag. you can't get one. you can, however, register your boat in whatever
state you plan to use it in. your state registration is more or less accepted
in most Carribean countries, except of course you beloved French countries.
There they will fine you for trying to enter without a properly documented
boat.

This is why I am trying to determine under what flag I can register the boat
I intend to buy. I wish to buy the boat then sail it indefinitely. I don't
intend to "import" it anywhere - for a start where too? I am an NZ citizen,
but haven't lived there for 35 years and have no connections there at all
anymore. I currently reside in France, but will have no more connections to
France once I am on the boat. Where do I therefore register to? Country of
birth? Country of last residence? Neither NZ or France would allow that as I
have no address in either country. Or keep the existing registration (which
seems impossible)? Or can I register it under a flag of convenience like
Panama?

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

That's not true. Please produce a reference to such a regulation. If this were
true it would be impossible for a tourist to do a bare boat charter of a
documented vessel.

What is true is that to carry passengers for hire you need a license which
requires citizenship. I believe that immigration papers are accepted for the
lowest level (launch driver perhaps?). I think there a similar restrictions on
other commercial vessels.




"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
I believe that documenting a vessel in the US is a privilege of US
citizenship.

that is a fact. non citizens are not even allowed to use documented boats
unless a citizen is aboard

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
breaking the Official Secrets Act in Britain is considered a very serious
offense.

Actually, it is not particularly serious as the max sentence is only 2
years. In any case, the rest of the world considers it a bit of a joke.

Not hardly the same catagory as a bare tit here.

Actually the max sentence in USA for "indecency" is slightly longer than 2
years in some states, so you're wrong.

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

"Plastiekske" wrote in message
...
Well,

I'm not an 'undesirable alien', but I've just recently (three weeks ago)
bought a US registered boat

When you bought it, did the US authorities allow you a transit period to
take the boat back to Europe under their flag, or were you expected to
transfer it immediately to Belgian flag before taking possession?

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

Ric wrote:

so you're wrong.


Ric:

Stick around a bit, with Jax, you'll find this to be
a common occurrence.

Cheers
Marty

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

Plastiekske wrote:
I'm not an 'undesirable alien', but I've just recently (three weeks ago) bought a US registered boat
(lying in Georgia). I was meaning to sail the boat along the East Coast to Newport, before crossing
the Atlantic to my 'home country' (Belgium).

Seems to me that there are a few alternatives. Why not sail the boat
through the Caribbean, getting far enough south to be out of the
hurricane track come late summer. While out there you can look into what
registration options an expat has, there are bound to be some that will
cost less than $15K (or euros).

BTW did you not figure the VAT or other registration expenses when
calculating whether or not you could afford the boat? Seems like a
rather expensive mistake.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

"Ric" wrote in message ...
Hello,

I am an "alien" as you americans like to call us. I'm even worse an
"undesirable alien" because your government won't give me a visa because of
a book I wrote.

However, I wish to buy a second-hand boat from a gentleman in New York. He
currently has the boat registered under a US flag. Will I be able to keep
the boat under US flag? I intend to live aboard and sail indefinitely, so
will have no fixed abode so no logical country to register the boat. It
would make things much simpler therefore if I just kept it under US flag.
Would this be permitted, given that I am an "undesirable alien" and do not
have an address in the USA?

Whats the name of the book you wrote?

And No you can not keep the vessel registered under a US flag. You
must have a US address to register a boat under a US flag. And it
would be nice if you paid some US taxes. Why should the USA protect
your vessel in international waters if you do nothing for the USA?

I suggest you get that stupid New Yorker to deliver the boat to you,
then you can pay import taxes to your own country and register it in
your country. If your in certian places like Cuba then just forget it
all the way around.

Undesireable alien free loader is more like it.

Capt. American

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

Capt.American wrote:



Whats the name of the book you wrote?

You could try following the link that he posted.

Cheers
Marty

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
Capt.American wrote:



Whats the name of the book you wrote?

You could try following the link that he posted.

Forgive him, he's obviously a bit thick as I also explained that I don't
really have a "home country" and I would also far rather not have it under
US flag if I can avoid it as I quite like to have boats of other
nationalities give me a friendly waive as they pass, and I don't want the
USCG messing me around and I don't want to contribute my money to the US war
machine.

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

Ric wrote:

When you bought it, did the US authorities allow you a transit period to
take the boat back to Europe under their flag, or were you expected to
transfer it immediately to Belgian flag before taking possession?

no: the boat had to be deleted from documentation immediately: a non-US citizen cannot document a
boat in the USA.

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

"Plastiekske" wrote in message
...
Ric wrote:

When you bought it, did the US authorities allow you a transit period to
take the boat back to Europe under their flag, or were you expected to
transfer it immediately to Belgian flag before taking possession?

no: the boat had to be deleted from documentation immediately: a non-US
citizen cannot document a
boat in the USA.

So what was the status of the boat after it was deleted from documentation?
As you mentioned earlier, you never registered it in Belgium because of the
tax. Was the boat just not registered anywhere in the interim?

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

DSK wrote:

Seems to me that there are a few alternatives. Why not sail the boat
through the Caribbean, getting far enough south to be out of the
hurricane track come late summer. While out there you can look into what
registration options an expat has, there are bound to be some that will
cost less than $15K (or euros).

BTW did you not figure the VAT or other registration expenses when
calculating whether or not you could afford the boat? Seems like a
rather expensive mistake.

Like I said: I got my information from the Flemish counterpart of the American Sailing Association,
which I believed to be a knowledgeable source. It wasn't until I actually contacted the customs that
it turned out to be that this information was wrong.
I didn't say that I couldn't afford the additional cost, but ... I had planned other things with the
approx US$15600.
So ... I prefer losing US$ 2000 (or maybe even a bit more if somebody comes up with an acceptable
bid) to spending another US$15600 (although it breaks my heart, because this boat was the first one
I encountered having everything that I look for in a boat)

Frank

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

Ric wrote:

So what was the status of the boat after it was deleted from documentation?
As you mentioned earlier, you never registered it in Belgium because of the
tax. Was the boat just not registered anywhere in the interim?

well, since I bought it less than three weeks ago, it's still lying in it's slip in Georgia,
undocumented.

There's a catch-22 situation in this: in order to register the boat in Belgium, it has to be
physically present in Belgium, but ... in order to sail it to Belgium, it has to be registered :(

I've mailed the USCG to ask them if their exists a way out of this deadlock, but haven't gotten an
answer yet

Frank

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

Ric,

You covert American Rights but knock our values.

I wonder how the operative in M16 feel about your views?

I can't remember a time when I've agreed with JAX but on this I stand
Shoulder to Shoulder with his VIEWS; AND, "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!"

Ole Thom

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:06:44 GMT, Plastiekske
wrote:

Ric wrote:

So what was the status of the boat after it was deleted from documentation?
As you mentioned earlier, you never registered it in Belgium because of the
tax. Was the boat just not registered anywhere in the interim?

well, since I bought it less than three weeks ago, it's still lying in it's slip in Georgia,
undocumented.

There's a catch-22 situation in this: in order to register the boat in Belgium, it has to be
physically present in Belgium, but ... in order to sail it to Belgium, it has to be registered :(

I've mailed the USCG to ask them if their exists a way out of this deadlock, but haven't gotten an
answer yet

Frank

Not that I would recommend such a devious scheme, but in the world of
"what ifs"...

What if you sold the boat to a willing buyer, for say $10,000. At the
same time, the new buyer grants you an option to purchase the boat for
$10,000 and hires you to deliver the boat to Europe, where the new
buyer plans to cruise the boat. Plans change for unforeseen
circumstances once the boat is in Europe, say somewhere in the Antwerp
area, and you exercise your option to purchase the boat. The boat is
then registered in Belgium and tax is paid based on it's purchase
price of $10,000.

An alternative might be to sell a partnership interest to an American,
who could document the boat. Transport the boat to Europe. Register
the boat, terminate the partnerhsip.

I would hate to see you part with a boat for purely paperwork
complexities. Think form over substance...that is how the government
works:)

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

wrote in message
...


Captain America, thick? Captain America is not smart enough to be
thick!

BB, you are a complete idiot.

Capt America may well be a Redneck, but I'm fairly sure that he isn't thick.
He seems to know quite a bit about sailing. You, on the other hand,
demonstrate no knowledge whatsoever about sailing.

Regards


Donal
--

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

In article , Ric
wrote:

"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
Capt.American wrote:



Whats the name of the book you wrote?

You could try following the link that he posted.

Forgive him, he's obviously a bit thick as I also explained that I don't
really have a "home country" and I would also far rather not have it under
US flag if I can avoid it as I quite like to have boats of other
nationalities give me a friendly waive as they pass, and I don't want the
USCG messing me around and I don't want to contribute my money to the US war
machine.

Lot of truth in that. The USA asserts the right to search US registered
vessels anywhere, any time, in international waters. Somehow it escapes
the right wing nutcases like CA that this violates US citizens' right
to be free from arbitrary search. Was all about the WOD of course,
which is hopelessly lost. BTW, apparently the British granted the USA
rights to do the same thing for Brit registered vessels and for all I
know, Australia as well. Wouldn't surprise me.

WRT attitudes there was a book published recently by an Australian
woman. She was a left wing bleeding heart who I'd argue with instantly
but some of her observations on US boats & attitudes were interesting.
Can't remember the title, lent it to a friend of mine so I could
develop a good argument topic next time we had a dinner party :-)

NZ is a nice backward country but from stuff Navvie posted, I think
registering a boat there would be a mistake. They have a nanny approach
to blue water sailing which Navvie is happy about and thinks a good
idea, but would drive most people insane. Probably be OK if you never
took the vessel into NZ waters. Surely a local address couldn't be too
hard to arrange, though they might want to see what you're trying to
register.

If you're going to take the boat out of the USA ASAP, try the Cook
Islands or similar. As a NZ citizen you might find registering it there
relatively simple - pay and forget. Panama possibly?

Peter Wiley

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

Dave, get with the program. I originally posted that the owner must be a US
citizen and posted the link to the VDC.

Jaxie, however, is claiming that there must be a citizen on board at all times.
He said:

"non citizens are not even allowed to use documented boats unless a citizen is
aboard"

Are you claiming that jaxie is correct on this?


"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:34:06 -0500, "Jeff Morris"
said:

That's not true. Please produce a reference to such a regulation.

Well, the Coast Guard may of course be full of it, but here's what their
website says:

"The basic requirements for documentation are to demonstrate ownership of
the vessel, _U.S. citizenship_, and eligibility for the endorsement sought."
(emphasis supplied)

See http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/faq.htm#02

I haven't bothered to check U.S.C or C.F.R., but feel free if you think
they're wrong.


Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

sorry, dude. aliens are not allowed to document a boat in the US. In
addition, aliens are not allowed to operate a US documented boat without a
citizen aboard.

maybe charter boats have a special exemption? maybe the CG doesn't check?

That's not true. Please produce a reference to such a regulation. If this
were
true it would be impossible for a tourist to do a bare boat charter of a
documented vessel.

What is true is that to carry passengers for hire you need a license which
requires citizenship. I believe that immigration papers are accepted for the
lowest level (launch driver perhaps?). I think there a similar restrictions
on
other commercial vessels.




"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
I believe that documenting a vessel in the US is a privilege of US
citizenship.

that is a fact. non citizens are not even allowed to use documented boats
unless a citizen is aboard

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

yeah, the guy knowingly and deliberately committed a crime breaking a low the
Brits feel is vital for their national security.

Now, the clown wants us to grant him a visa so he can what? Knowingly and
deliberately commit a crime breaking a law we feel vital for our national
security?

Sure.

Ric,

You covert American Rights but knock our values.

I wonder how the operative in M16 feel about your views?

I can't remember a time when I've agreed with JAX but on this I stand
Shoulder to Shoulder with his VIEWS; AND, "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!"

Ole Thom

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
sorry, dude. aliens are not allowed to document a boat in the US. In
addition, aliens are not allowed to operate a US documented boat without a
citizen aboard.

maybe charter boats have a special exemption? maybe the CG doesn't check?

Maybe there's no such regulation? The CFR is online, jaxie, it shouldn't be too
hard for you to find the reg.

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

sorry, dude. That's your job.

sorry, dude. aliens are not allowed to document a boat in the US. In
addition, aliens are not allowed to operate a US documented boat without a
citizen aboard.

maybe charter boats have a special exemption? maybe the CG doesn't check?

Maybe there's no such regulation? The CFR is online, jaxie, it shouldn't be
too
hard for you to find the reg.

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

from the Code of Federal Regulations:

"q) Transfer means the passing of control of or an interest in a Documented
Vessel and includes the involuntary conveyance by a foreign judicial or
administrative tribunal of any interest in or control of a
Documented Vessel owned by a Citizen of the United States to a Noncitizen that
is not eligible to own a Documented Vessel."

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

OK.
46CFR221 goes into some detail about the process of chartering, including the
permissions required to charter to non-citizens and the fees involved (several
hundred dollars) to obtain this approval.

However, 46CFR221.11:
(b)(1) The approvals required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section
are not required for the following Documented Vessel types if the vessel
has been operated exclusively and with bona fides for one or more of the
following uses, under a Certificate of Documentation with an appropriate
endorsement and no other, since initial documentation or renewal of its
documentation following construction, conversion, or transfer from
foreign registry, or, if it has not yet so operated, if the vessel has
been designed and built and will be operated for one or more of the
following uses:
...
(iv) A Pleasure vessel.


Once again, jaxie, you're busted.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
sorry, dude. That's your job.

sorry, dude. aliens are not allowed to document a boat in the US. In
addition, aliens are not allowed to operate a US documented boat without a
citizen aboard.

maybe charter boats have a special exemption? maybe the CG doesn't check?

Maybe there's no such regulation? The CFR is online, jaxie, it shouldn't be
too
hard for you to find the reg.

"Undesirable alien" buying a US flagged boat
 

What is this,jaxie, you just grabbed a random section of the CFR and now claim
its relevant? I posted the reg that explicitly says its OK to charter a
pleasure boat to a non-citizen.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
from the Code of Federal Regulations:

"q) Transfer means the passing of control of or an interest in a Documented
Vessel and includes the involuntary conveyance by a foreign judicial or
administrative tribunal of any interest in or control of a
Documented Vessel owned by a Citizen of the United States to a Noncitizen that
is not eligible to own a Documented Vessel."