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A Tachtmaster wanna be said

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
"Joe" wrote in message
om...

snip

You certainly do not need to be told your position at the start of the
blind
test, as at that point you were not navigating blindly.

Oh OK, that makes sence. When I learned to navigate we needed to know
were we were, that was some of the basic stuff.

Exactly.
You do not ask the crew for the compass reading. As the navigator you
*tell* the crew what the compass heading should be.

But you have to look at the compass to tell what your course is,
therefore the compass is giving you imput, can you understand this
farout concept?

No, you tell the crew what course to steer. As John E has pointed out, they
may tell you if they cannot steer to your course, and tell you what course
they can make. I didn't remember the rules on the last bit, but it makes
sense.

If I am navigator, then I direct the course changes.

Not if you move blind into a strong current, the current might set
your course and drift, without external imput from your compass you
will not be able to accurately tell your deviation from orignal
heading, if you are blind that is.

I don't follow you. A strong current at sea shouldn't change the compass
heading??? It may change your course, but then again, the test is meant to
show if you are aware of the currents.

The only way that the compass reading could be affected by currents is if
the boat was being steered by the GPS.

...... go on Joe, you really want to mention "meeting" or "crossing"
situations, don't you?

Yeah and being blind without external imput meeting situation are
going to be very risky huh?

No, the crew, including the examiner won't crash the boat!

A competent navigator will have used his tide tables before he sets out
on
his trip. In fact, I mentioned this a couple of years ago. I always
insist
that my wife and my sons do independent passage plans before a long
passage
so that they will really *know* where we are if something happens to me.

Tide tables?

Yes! Navigators use them when their GPS sets break down.

They do! Wow your smart.

Why did you ask?

About as good as your description of blind navigation with no imput at
all, you know the "Waves slapping on the hull" line you spewed. Your
yachtmaster exam sounds like what a basic OS or AB would sit for.
Basic Basic Basic. Your the only one that thinks it is , difficult,
mysterious, and a great feat of navigation.

I don't think any such thing at all. I see it as a recreational boater's
qualification. AFAIK, you cannot use it to get many professional jobs.

Regards

Donal
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A Tachtmaster wanna be said

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
Donal wrote in message
...

( lanods backpeddeling sniped for space)

You are sent below, where the ports(windows) have been blacked
out.

Do you have a compass below?

No!

You have your starting position clearly marked on the chart.. After 1/2
hour you are asked to mark your current position on the chart.

While you are below, you may issue instructions. eg course to steer.
I don't remember if you are told the speed.

figure the distance of the seperation of each wave. Count the number
of waves that slapped your hull and divide to get distance, take your
distance and divide by time and you should have speed. Simple, you
should have to be told your speed if your a true Yachtmaster.

The examiner will check the accuracy of your plot, and decide if you
merit
a pass. The examiner decides what accuracy he requires.

It's 13-14 years since I did the course, so I'm cannot give you the
specifics of what is required.

13 years ago, there was far less electronics on boats. There wasn't
even
GPS.

No kidding! Did you have loran? How about a sextant?

No! I bought my first, and only, GPS about 6-7 years ago.

Simply stated, give Ole Joe some basic info to work with and maybe
he'll
stop asking questions ..... or is this a troll ?

Hmmm, who's trolling? Joe claims that doing 25 knots in fog under
radar
alone is safe.

Stop twisting the facts Lanod. It is safe if you know the area, know
the radar picture, and your radars ability, know how to use a radio,
and know how to pass safely.

Twisting the facts???? You've just repeated them again!

Its not a troll when you have done it a thousand times , It's a fact.

He refuses to believe that you can use tide tables and a
chart to plan a course that you can actually use without much further
assistance.

LIAR, I can do that with ease. However I can not be put in a
wheelhouse
with the windows blackened out and navigate with no external imput
like you claimed the yachtmaster test required.

Hmmmm! You have a steering wheel in the wheelhouse, don't you?

I'm beginning to think that you are confusing the word "navigate" with
"steer"!

Regards

Donal
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A Tachtmaster wanna be said

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
So, are you claiming you don't receive actual speed, or wind readings? Or
depth? Compass headings? Buoys passed? Sounds heard?

John E has obviously been through it recently, and I think that he gave a
good answer. I believe him when he says he was given some details about the
buoys passed.

As I pointed out earlier, it is 13 years since I did this stuff.

I didn't expect you to remember all the details, but you did say "NO external
imputs." Regardless of your memory, you have to admit this is a bit farfetched.

If you don't get any of this, why bother doing it on board; you could do
the
same thing in a class room.

John has also said that you will be given the compass heading if the crew
cannot maintain the course that you request.

John described a quite reasonable procedure.

You made one of your typical outrageous claims, and then have refused to
clarify.

Jeff, what outrageous claim do you think that I made?

You said:
Yachtmasters only have to show that they can navigate without external
inputs to prove that they understand the basic principles of navigation.

You repeated the claim of "no imputs" even after the obvious paradox was pointed
out.

I clarified to the best of my ability.

You had plenty of opportunity say "maybe we had speed and depth," but you
evaded that. That's why it was a troll.

How is this not trolling?

Jeff, every post that asks for a response, is in some way a troll.

Was MC trolling when he pointed out the part of Rule 2 that you had
studiously avoided for the last couple of weeks?

As I recall, when I said rule 2 was relevant to the kayak situation you said
that was ridiculous. Its too much work to look it up now unless you insist.

I didn't suggest rule 2 was relevant to your "25 knots in the fog" case simply
because I never denied that it would be reckless if the was no lookout, and in
any case I wasn't familiar with the area.

Or were you trolling when
you stated that a kayak "had no business" to be in a TSS.

Maybe a bit, but I was willing to back up my claim. However, with the exception
of you and Rick, no one disagreed with me. The only issue in question was the
legality, not the propriety.

Were you
trolling when you suggested [and later retracted] that ships could keep a
lookout by radar alone?

I never said that and you know it. My "retraction" was the very next sentence,
not a later post. This is why I consider you a cowardly liar, and a troll of
the lowest order. I take that back, RB has at times been worse, so I guess its
a tossup.

Let's face facts Jeff. I've done something to upset you, haven't I?

No not at all! I rather enjoy it. Its just that after a while you get to be an
embarrassment!

Was
it the position that I took in last year's "pecking order in fog"
discussion? That was a real Neal classic! I freely admit that I played
devil's advocate in that thread.

You certainly didn't play an intelligent person.

As well as being quite hilarious, the
thread proved very informative, even if you never actually managed to prove
your point.

Prove my point? I didn't have to "prove my point" since everyone except you and
Neal agreed with me. Neal was resorting to claiming that the Naval Academy
textbook was part of a left wing conspiracy! I only persisted because I was
afraid that some naive fool (maybe even you?) might believe Neal's claim that
sailboats are the stand-on vessel in the fog.

BTW, an odd coincidence: I received the Ocean Navigator "Rules of the Road
Newsletter" yesterday and it describes a radar-assisted collision between a ship
and a sailboat. It was a generally confused situation where the sailboat
thought it was the stand-on vessel. On this point the newsletter says:
"regardless of those two possible assumptions, stand-on/give-way do not exist
when the vessels are not in sight."

Just for the record, I *never* troll.

Then why did I respond?

-jeff

A Tachtmaster wanna be said

Donal wrote:
"otnmbrd" wrote in message

.... and as you say, "passage planning" is an area that many people do
not make enough use of, and an area that can save a good deal of grief
if properly employed.

Before taking the family on cross-channel trips, I always make sure that my
wife and eldest son do a passage plan. That way, if anything happens to me
they should be able to carry on.

I've also taught my kids that using the GPS means a longer crossing, even
when you allow for the *predicted* tide. The tides are rarely exactly as
predicted. This doesn't matter much on a 12-14 hour crossing, because if
the tide goes faster one way, then it will also go faster the other way. So
we usually stick to our course. Big errors usually correct themselves when
the tide turns.

One of the "problems" with using GPS exclusively for navigation, is that
often we either forget or never learn some of the "old" tricks that were
used, prior to GPS.
For instance, there are many routes that people take, where they knew
the effects of current and didn't bother with course change that the GPS
may show as needed to make point "B" from point "A". Prior to GPS, you'd
set one course and never change it (on these routes) and no matter how
far you wandered off the base course line, you left the course alone,
because when you got to point "B", you'd have wandered back to where you
wanted to be.

13 years ago, there was far less electronics on boats. There wasn't

even

GPS.

I think it's been a bit longer than that....course, the time element of
change from "sat nav" to "gps" is kinda blurry ... sat nav being in the
early 80's

The only nav systems that I saw on boats was Decca. Maybe GPS sets were too
expensive???

Until GPS, SAT NAV sets tended to be expensive, required (initially)
knowing antenna height, and only gave positions when they had satellites
aligned (visible) so they may not give you positions as and when you
really needed them, which meant you best be using other methods also.

Hmmm, who's trolling? Joe claims that doing 25 knots in fog under

radar

alone is safe. He refuses to believe that you can use tide tables and a
chart to plan a course that you can actually use without much further
assistance. Now you expect me to remember all the precise details of
something that I studied 13 years ago!

G I think you misread/understood what Joe was saying (at least, I read
his statement differently) No one runs the type of boat he was talking
about, in fog, at those speeds, under radar "alone".

Did you read the thread? He seemed pretty clear on the subject, and
defended his position quite vigourously.

Been following it all along. We are obviously interpreting it differently.

The route is well known, local knowledge is extensive, tides and
currents are well known and specific, as are traffic patterns,
densities, etc., and a lookout is normal (lookout may not be on the bow
as this could be dangerous, but there will be one, though I recognize
"idiots" exist in all quarters).

Joe was adamant that he used radar, and didn't need any other form of
lookout.

I read he was using radar as his most immediate and important source of
traffic and navigation information, not his only source. If he didn't
have a second pair of eyes from among the crew, also watching from some
position, then shame on him.

Now, as to your memory ..... of course I expect you to remember those
details .... just don't expect me to remember the details of my "radar
recertification" I did @6 mos ago.

I've come to the conclusion that you remember the things that are of
practical use. For example, I have forgotton almost all of the morse code.

still remember that

I've also forgotton what most identification lights mean. If they have
anything unusual, then I give way.

G good reason to always have the "Rules" book handy. I try to read it
cover to cover every 6 mos, and frequently thumb through the "lights"
section at other times, especially if I've been caught short on making
an identity, while underway.

To be honest, getting into these discussions, has and is an excellent
way to maintain "Rules" currency.
Were you aware, that the latest change to rule 8(a), was mainly an
attempt to emphasis the rule regarding changing course to port to avoid
a collision? BG Just thought I'd throw that in there.

otn

Regards

Donal
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A Tachtmaster wanna be said

Donal wrote:

I've also forgotton what most lights mean. If they have
anything unusual, then I give way.

Even to channel markers?
;-P
Cheers

A Tachtmaster wanna be said

John.E wrote:

Hi Jeff,

"without the use of any electronic device" is the way I (and many of my
classic owning friends) still sail today as my little cruiser (195x
Hillyard) only has an electronic echo sounder (no power feed from the 195x
Stuart 2 stroke and only a 22watt solar panel for a trickle charge on the
lighting circuit), pitching the lead when single handed and closing on a lee
shore in fog is a real bummer (I have got a lead & line in the locker
though) ;-))

The whole tilt on the YachtMaster Offshore and Ocean is the practical aspect
and the ability to deliver on the water, not just in the confines of the
classroom. The YM does have a theory component but to get you ticket you
have to perform on the day on the water (as well as having the minimum time
aboard day and night and the miles logged), in my case the middle of
November, English winter, -17 chill factor and a 30Kt wind blowing. Fun?
Not!

Not only that, what about the case in Heavy Weather sailing where a
whole YM
examination class set sail into a full gale!

Cheers MC

A Tachtmaster wanna be said

"Lanods latest words of wisdom"

Hmmmm! You have a steering wheel in the wheelhouse, don't you?

No I have a helm.

I'm beginning to think that you are confusing the word "navigate" with
"steer"!

Steering in the right direction is navigating you dunce. If your down
below and the guy above on the steering wheel (helm) is going in
circles and figure 8's it kind of hard to Navigate without any imput
with no compass below.

At least I'm smart enough to put a compass over my bunk and one at my
nav station. Guess your are blacked out like a true Yachtmasters
should be.

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Regards

Donal
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A Tachtmaster wanna be said

"John.E" wrote in message m...
This was applied in my exam... (sailing not motoring)

I got about two minutes to fix my position from a 3point/running fix and I
was sent then below decks (with curtains closed and no outside view)...
Once below I was then supplied with my target...
(a bouy about 6-7 Nm away along the Solent, a very busy stretch of water
full of commercial and pleasure traffic)
I was allowed the following info...
crew were permitted to supply shape of any bouy passed within
5-10mtrs... (not colour or markings)
crew could supply compass heading if course requested heading could not
be achieved... (under sail, no motors)
crew could supply speed through water from log reading... (no VMG or
other compute details)
crew could supply current depth from echo sounder... (I assume the a
leadline is concidered to be aboard)
charts of given exam area and tidal atlas...
The examiner would also feed me various sound signals just to spcie things
up!

There you have it, the only info available was information that could be
gleaned without the use of any electronic device and no engines used.

JohnE

Thanks John,

Excellent description.

With so many clues and imputs it seems to be fairly basic. With the
shapes of bouys who needs to know the color, and with the spacing
being far enough apart its real easy to reckon. With sound signals and
depth reading you should be able to stay in a channel and know exactly
were you are, or know when your getting out of it, and perhaps plot
your progress thru any area that has a bottom that varies in depth.
All this information that can be combined on any detailed chart for a
fairly accurate fix.

One mistake., You said all the information must be gleened without the
use of any electronic aids. And unless your using a lead line you were
cheating.

Joe
MSV RedCloud

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

No external imput at all.

How can this be done?

Joe
MSV RedCloud