A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

No external imput at all.

How can this be done?

Joe
MSV RedCloud

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Joe wrote:
"One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

No external imput at all.

How can this be done?

If your starting position is known, one of those inertial gyroscope thingies
might work.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Joe wrote:

"One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

No external imput at all.

How can this be done?

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Joe you seem to be rather thick, you must take this post in the context of the
others that preceded it. If you do so you will be aware that there is in fact
"external" input; The examiner is going to tell you your starting position, compass
heading and any course changes, most likely you will also get the boat speed through
the water. You have to plot your course accounting for set, leeway (you are going to
have to know your boats characteristics for this based on angle of heel, something you
can sense in the cabin and therefore another input), drift...., you will have a watch and tide
tables.

To accomplish this with some accuracy is not that difficult, I'm not sure
why you seem to be so astounded by such an ability.

Cheers
Marty

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

Joe, you obviously think that I would mislead you. Let me take this
opportunity to reassure you that I would never give you false information.

Take a look at any of these links, and search for "blind navigation".

http://www.southern.co.uk/courses.htm

http://www.capitalsailing.com/pc_ym.html

http://www.hamble.co.uk/yashtmaster_prep_motor.htm


By the way, there is a web site called www.googol.com which you can use to
find out things for yourself.


No external imput at all.

How can this be done?

Joe, read the thread that you copied that text from. Try about two posts
down.

Maybe you need to go on an RYA course, where they will open your eyes to the
science of blind navigation.

Regards


Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:


To accomplish this with some accuracy is not that difficult, I'm not sure
why you seem to be so astounded by such an ability.

I suspect that Joe has always relied on electronics.


Regards


Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Martin Baxter wrote in message ...
Joe wrote:

"One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

No external imput at all.

How can this be done?

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Joe you seem to be rather thick, you must take this post in the context of the
others that preceded it.

Yeh right show me this content.

If you do so you will be aware that there is in fact
"external" input;

Thats not what his post said thicker thick thickest, he said no imup
exterinal imput.

The examiner is going to tell you your starting position,

Yes external imput # 1


compass
heading

External imput #2


and any course changes,

External imput #3

most likely you will also get the boat speed through
the water.

EXTERNAL imput #4
You have to plot your course accounting for set,

Tide tables?

EXTERNAL #5

leeway (you are going to
have to know your boats characteristics

for this based on angle of heel, something you
can sense in the cabin and therefore another input),

Ill say that internal and OK with what the yachtmaster wannabe claims.
After all you can sence that in a pilot house with the windows blacked
as stated.

drift...., you will have a watch and tide
tables.

Yelp EXTERNAL IMPUT #5


To accomplish this with some accuracy is not that difficult, I'm not sure
why you seem to be so astounded by such an ability.


Damn..... With 5 external imputs that as easy as tieing your shoe. I
thought these yachtmasters knew something special and astonishing.

I other works Lanod was talking out his arse and did not have a clue
what he was saying. Is that what you are saying ?

Joe
MSV RedCloud


Cheers
Marty

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Joe wrote:



I other works Lanod was talking out his arse and did not have a clue
what he was saying. Is that what you are saying ?



No Joe, that is not what I am saying, if you want to pick and choose
bits and pieces rather than the whole, then you will be able to find
cause for a fight.

"When you want to beat a dog, you can allways find a stick".

Cheers
Marty

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
Martin Baxter wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:

"One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

No external imput at all.

How can this be done?

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Joe you seem to be rather thick, you must take this post in the context
of the
others that preceded it.

Yeh right show me this content.

If you do so you will be aware that there is in fact
"external" input;

Thats not what his post said thicker thick thickest, he said no imup
exterinal imput.

The examiner is going to tell you your starting position,

Yes external imput # 1

Poor, Joe! Poor, poor Joe.

As you are in a Yachtmaster exam, you will already know your position.

You certainly do not need to be told your position at the start of the blind
test, as at that point you were not navigating blindly.




compass
heading

External imput #2

Poor, Joe! Poor, poor Joe.

I'm almost beginning to feel sorry for you.

You do not ask the crew for the compass reading. As the navigator you
*tell* the crew what the compass heading should be.

It quite simple, isn't it? ... .... well, OK, you'll just have to take my
word. It *is* simple. Honestly.





and any course changes,

External imput #3

If I am navigator, then I direct the course changes.



....... go on Joe, you really want to mention "meeting" or "crossing"
situations, don't you?




most likely you will also get the boat speed through
the water.

EXTERNAL imput #4
You have to plot your course accounting for set,

A competent navigator will have used his tide tables before he sets out on
his trip. In fact, I mentioned this a couple of years ago. I always insist
that my wife and my sons do independent passage plans before a long passage
so that they will really *know* where we are if something happens to me.



Tide tables?

Yes! Navigators use them when their GPS sets break down.



EXTERNAL #5

leeway (you are going to
have to know your boats characteristics

for this based on angle of heel, something you
can sense in the cabin and therefore another input),

Ill say that internal and OK with what the yachtmaster wannabe claims.
After all you can sence that in a pilot house with the windows blacked
as stated.

drift...., you will have a watch and tide
tables.

Yelp EXTERNAL IMPUT #5


To accomplish this with some accuracy is not that difficult, I'm not
sure
why you seem to be so astounded by such an ability.


Damn..... With 5 external imputs that as easy as tieing your shoe. I
thought these yachtmasters knew something special and astonishing.

I other works Lanod was talking out his arse and did not have a clue
what he was saying. Is that what you are saying ?

Joe, by this stage you should be beginning to realise that I can make more
sense while talking out of my arse than you can by utilising all the
intellectual abilities that you have at your disposal. [good insult, huh?]


Regards


Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Donal wrote:

snipped a bunch of stuff which did little to give a simple answer to a
simple question

Joe, by this stage you should be beginning to realise that I can make more
sense while talking out of my arse than you can by utilising all the
intellectual abilities that you have at your disposal. [good insult, huh?]


Regards


Donal

In all honesty, Donal, you've made little sense, just beat about the
bush as if you hold the secret to life.
The simple question posed was: What information, inputs, aids, were
available to the person taking this test?
Feel free to list them, numerically .... ya know ..... 1., 2., 3., etc.,
then everyone can decide how difficult or not, it is.
In the past, many people used many methods to do some highly accurate
"piloting", and many of these practices have been lost or never learned,
by most of the newer "navigators".
I, for one, would be interested in the specifics of this test, but from
your description, don't have a clue as to what's involved, though I'm
beginning to pick up some glimmers, that it's a basic piloting exam.
Simply stated, give Ole Joe some basic info to work with and maybe he'll
stop asking questions ..... or is this a troll ?

otn
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

otn said: In all honesty, Donal, you've made little sense, just beat =
about the=20
bush as if you hold the secret to life.

Donal's Irish...he does hold the secret of life....

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

katysails wrote:
otn said: In all honesty, Donal, you've made little sense, just beat about the
bush as if you hold the secret to life.

Donal's Irish...he does hold the secret of life....

Nah....all they hold, is the secret to "blarney"

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

otn repliedNah....all they hold, is the secret to "blarney"

But good blarnet IS the secret of life....you are not Irish...I can =
tell.....
:=20

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

This was applied in my exam... (sailing not motoring)

I got about two minutes to fix my position from a 3point/running fix and I
was sent then below decks (with curtains closed and no outside view)...
Once below I was then supplied with my target...
(a bouy about 6-7 Nm away along the Solent, a very busy stretch of water
full of commercial and pleasure traffic)
I was allowed the following info...
crew were permitted to supply shape of any bouy passed within
5-10mtrs... (not colour or markings)
crew could supply compass heading if course requested heading could not
be achieved... (under sail, no motors)
crew could supply speed through water from log reading... (no VMG or
other compute details)
crew could supply current depth from echo sounder... (I assume the a
leadline is concidered to be aboard)
charts of given exam area and tidal atlas...
The examiner would also feed me various sound signals just to spcie things
up!

There you have it, the only info available was information that could be
gleaned without the use of any electronic device and no engines used.

JohnE

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

No external imput at all.

How can this be done?

Joe
MSV RedCloud

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Thanks John. I'd call that a GOOD test of basic piloting skills ...
one with plenty of room to screw up, but with all the info you should
need, to complete.

otn

John.E wrote:
This was applied in my exam... (sailing not motoring)

I got about two minutes to fix my position from a 3point/running fix and I
was sent then below decks (with curtains closed and no outside view)...
Once below I was then supplied with my target...
(a bouy about 6-7 Nm away along the Solent, a very busy stretch of water
full of commercial and pleasure traffic)
I was allowed the following info...
crew were permitted to supply shape of any bouy passed within
5-10mtrs... (not colour or markings)
crew could supply compass heading if course requested heading could not
be achieved... (under sail, no motors)
crew could supply speed through water from log reading... (no VMG or
other compute details)
crew could supply current depth from echo sounder... (I assume the a
leadline is concidered to be aboard)
charts of given exam area and tidal atlas...
The examiner would also feed me various sound signals just to spcie things
up!

There you have it, the only info available was information that could be
gleaned without the use of any electronic device and no engines used.

JohnE

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"katysails" wrote in message


Donal's Irish...he does hold the secret of life....

Bushmills?

Max

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Thanks for the description - that makes a lot of sense. By comparison, the test
in the US for 6-pack or 100 ton Master's includes similar chartwork, but
performed in the classroom, without a serious time limit. (And, of course, it
assumes powerboats.) For someone experienced, its much easier than being on
board, but it can be more difficult for some people, because the chart used may
be completely unfamiliar and dis-orienting. (Not that its supposed to be easy
....)

The way you say "without the use of any electronic device" makes it sound like
its a test of ancient and arcane arts. In reality, its the way most of us
sailed up until about 10 year ago.

-jeff

"John.E" wrote in message
...
This was applied in my exam... (sailing not motoring)

I got about two minutes to fix my position from a 3point/running fix and I
was sent then below decks (with curtains closed and no outside view)...
Once below I was then supplied with my target...
(a bouy about 6-7 Nm away along the Solent, a very busy stretch of water
full of commercial and pleasure traffic)
I was allowed the following info...
crew were permitted to supply shape of any bouy passed within
5-10mtrs... (not colour or markings)
crew could supply compass heading if course requested heading could not
be achieved... (under sail, no motors)
crew could supply speed through water from log reading... (no VMG or
other compute details)
crew could supply current depth from echo sounder... (I assume the a
leadline is concidered to be aboard)
charts of given exam area and tidal atlas...
The examiner would also feed me various sound signals just to spcie things
up!

There you have it, the only info available was information that could be
gleaned without the use of any electronic device and no engines used.

JohnE

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

otnmbrd wrote:



In all honesty, Donal, you've made little sense, just beat about the
bush as if you hold the secret to life.
The simple question posed was: What information, inputs, aids, were
available to the person taking this test?

The question was "How can this be done?".

I've tried to answer the question, but Joe doesn't want to believe me.
I've also tried to give "real life" examples.

As far as I remember, you have no inputs at all. You issue orders from
down below, and you predict your position from tide tables. etc.

Feel free to list them, numerically .... ya know ..... 1., 2., 3., etc.,
then everyone can decide how difficult or not, it is.





In the past, many people used many methods to do some highly accurate
"piloting", and many of these practices have been lost or never learned,
by most of the newer "navigators".


I'm only talking about standard stuff, currents, leeway, etc.

It is probably designed to show your real passage planning abilities, and
your likely performance in fog.

I, for one, would be interested in the specifics of this test, but from
your description, don't have a clue as to what's involved, though I'm
beginning to pick up some glimmers, that it's a basic piloting exam.

I've described the test several times.
You are sent below, where the ports(windows) have been blacked out.
You have your starting position clearly marked on the chart.. After 1/2
hour you are asked to mark your current position on the chart.

While you are below, you may issue instructions. eg course to steer.
I don't remember if you are told the speed.

The examiner will check the accuracy of your plot, and decide if you merit
a pass. The examiner decides what accuracy he requires.

It's 13-14 years since I did the course, so I'm cannot give you the
specifics of what is required.

13 years ago, there was far less electronics on boats. There wasn't even
GPS.




Simply stated, give Ole Joe some basic info to work with and maybe he'll
stop asking questions ..... or is this a troll ?


Hmmm, who's trolling? Joe claims that doing 25 knots in fog under radar
alone is safe. He refuses to believe that you can use tide tables and a
chart to plan a course that you can actually use without much further
assistance. Now you expect me to remember all the precise details of
something that I studied 13 years ago!


Regards


Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Maxprop wrote:


"katysails" wrote in message


Donal's Irish...he does hold the secret of life....

Bushmills?


Bushmills Green Label, if you can find it!


Regards

Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Maxprop wrote:


"katysails" wrote in message


Donal's Irish...he does hold the secret of life....

Bushmills?


Bushmills Green Label, if you can find it!


Regards

Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

So, are you claiming you don't receive actual speed, or wind readings? Or
depth? Compass headings? Buoys passed? Sounds heard?

If you don't get any of this, why bother doing it on board; you could do the
same thing in a class room.

You made one of your typical outrageous claims, and then have refused to
clarify. How is this not trolling?



"Donal" wrote in message
...
otnmbrd wrote:



In all honesty, Donal, you've made little sense, just beat about the
bush as if you hold the secret to life.
The simple question posed was: What information, inputs, aids, were
available to the person taking this test?

The question was "How can this be done?".

I've tried to answer the question, but Joe doesn't want to believe me.
I've also tried to give "real life" examples.

As far as I remember, you have no inputs at all. You issue orders from
down below, and you predict your position from tide tables. etc.

Feel free to list them, numerically .... ya know ..... 1., 2., 3., etc.,
then everyone can decide how difficult or not, it is.





In the past, many people used many methods to do some highly accurate
"piloting", and many of these practices have been lost or never learned,
by most of the newer "navigators".


I'm only talking about standard stuff, currents, leeway, etc.

It is probably designed to show your real passage planning abilities, and
your likely performance in fog.

I, for one, would be interested in the specifics of this test, but from
your description, don't have a clue as to what's involved, though I'm
beginning to pick up some glimmers, that it's a basic piloting exam.

I've described the test several times.
You are sent below, where the ports(windows) have been blacked out.
You have your starting position clearly marked on the chart.. After 1/2
hour you are asked to mark your current position on the chart.

While you are below, you may issue instructions. eg course to steer.
I don't remember if you are told the speed.

The examiner will check the accuracy of your plot, and decide if you merit
a pass. The examiner decides what accuracy he requires.

It's 13-14 years since I did the course, so I'm cannot give you the
specifics of what is required.

13 years ago, there was far less electronics on boats. There wasn't even
GPS.




Simply stated, give Ole Joe some basic info to work with and maybe he'll
stop asking questions ..... or is this a troll ?


Hmmm, who's trolling? Joe claims that doing 25 knots in fog under radar
alone is safe. He refuses to believe that you can use tide tables and a
chart to plan a course that you can actually use without much further
assistance. Now you expect me to remember all the precise details of
something that I studied 13 years ago!


Regards


Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Donal wrote:


Bushmills Green Label, if you can find it!

Not difficult to find over here, maybe they export it all.

Lately I have been enjoying John Powers Gold which is nicer, although
hard to find (over here).

DSK

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"Donal" wrote in message

Maxprop wrote:


"katysails" wrote in message


Donal's Irish...he does hold the secret of life....

Bushmills?


Bushmills Green Label, if you can find it!

Figured they make a premium product, but I've never seen it here. What's
the diff? Age? I have found some older Jameson's, though.

Max

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"Donal" wrote in message ...
"Joe" wrote in message
om...
Martin Baxter wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:

"One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

No external imput at all.

How can this be done?

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Joe you seem to be rather thick, you must take this post in the context
of the
others that preceded it.

Yeh right show me this content.

If you do so you will be aware that there is in fact
"external" input;

Thats not what his post said thicker thick thickest, he said no imup
exterinal imput.

The examiner is going to tell you your starting position,

Yes external imput # 1

Poor, Joe! Poor, poor Joe.

As you are in a Yachtmaster exam, you will already know your position.
With the pilot house windows blacked out the only way your going to
know your position is someone tells you. Understand? Thats external
imput, comprende?


You certainly do not need to be told your position at the start of the blind
test, as at that point you were not navigating blindly.

Oh OK, that makes sence. When I learned to navigate we needed to know
were we were, that was some of the basic stuff.




compass
heading

External imput #2

Poor, Joe! Poor, poor Joe.

I'm almost beginning to feel sorry for you.

You do not ask the crew for the compass reading. As the navigator you
*tell* the crew what the compass heading should be.

But you have to look at the compass to tell what your course is,
therefore the compass is giving you imput, can you understand this
farout concept?

It quite simple, isn't it? ... .... well, OK, you'll just have to take my
word. It *is* simple. Honestly.

Simple imput a CC






and any course changes,

External imput #3

If I am navigator, then I direct the course changes.

Not if you move blind into a strong current, the current might set
your course and drift, without external imput from your compass you
will not be able to accurately tell your deviation from orignal
heading, if you are blind that is.



...... go on Joe, you really want to mention "meeting" or "crossing"
situations, don't you?

Yeah and being blind without external imput meeting situation are
going to be very risky huh?





most likely you will also get the boat speed through
the water.

well thats more external imput isnt it?


EXTERNAL imput #4
You have to plot your course accounting for set,

A competent navigator will have used his tide tables before he sets out on
his trip. In fact, I mentioned this a couple of years ago. I always insist
that my wife and my sons do independent passage plans before a long passage
so that they will really *know* where we are if something happens to me.



Tide tables?

Yes! Navigators use them when their GPS sets break down.


They do! Wow your smart.



EXTERNAL #5

leeway (you are going to
have to know your boats characteristics

for this based on angle of heel, something you
can sense in the cabin and therefore another input),

Ill say that internal and OK with what the yachtmaster wannabe claims.
After all you can sence that in a pilot house with the windows blacked
as stated.

drift...., you will have a watch and tide
tables.

Yelp EXTERNAL IMPUT #5


To accomplish this with some accuracy is not that difficult, I'm not
sure
why you seem to be so astounded by such an ability.


Damn..... With 5 external imputs that as easy as tieing your shoe. I
thought these yachtmasters knew something special and astonishing.

I other works Lanod was talking out his arse and did not have a clue
what he was saying. Is that what you are saying ?

Joe, by this stage you should be beginning to realise that I can make more
sense while talking out of my arse than you can by utilising all the
intellectual abilities that you have at your disposal. [good insult, huh?]

About as good as your description of blind navigation with no imput at
all, you know the "Waves slapping on the hull" line you spewed. Your
yachtmaster exam sounds like what a basic OS or AB would sit for.
Basic Basic Basic. Your the only one that thinks it is , difficult,
mysterious, and a great feat of navigation.

If you lived in the early 1800's you be yelling at the skipper STOP
STOP before we fall off the edge of the world.

Joe
MSV RedCloud





Regards


Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Donal" wrote in message

Maxprop wrote:


"katysails" wrote in message


Donal's Irish...he does hold the secret of life....

Bushmills?

No, but very close. The Gaelic for whiskey is "Uisce Beatha" [pron:- ish
ke bah ha] which literally translates as "The water of life".



Bushmills Green Label, if you can find it!

Figured they make a premium product, but I've never seen it here. What's
the diff? Age? I have found some older Jameson's, though.

Their labelling scheme is a bit odd. The "Gold" label is the standard
product, next comes "Black", and finally Green.

It's a few years since I had a bottle, but IIRC it was 10yo single malt.
Very smooth.


Doug might be correct, it is possible that most of it gets exported.
Another whiskey that seems to be only available abroad is Tullamore Dew. I
get it in France where it is quite cheap.


Regards


Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Figured they make a premium product, but I've never seen it here. What's
the diff? Age? I have found some older Jameson's, though.

Donal wrote:
Their labelling scheme is a bit odd. The "Gold" label is the standard
product, next comes "Black", and finally Green.

Their regular stuff is pretty good IMHO (in moderation of course).



It's a few years since I had a bottle, but IIRC it was 10yo single malt.
Very smooth.

Doug might be correct, it is possible that most of it gets exported.
Another whiskey that seems to be only available abroad is Tullamore Dew. I
get it in France where it is quite cheap.

Figures. What do the French know about whiskey? They probably use it for cooking
snails.

DSK

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Comments interspersed: See John E's response

Donal wrote:


The question was "How can this be done?".

I've tried to answer the question, but Joe doesn't want to believe me.
I've also tried to give "real life" examples.

As far as I remember, you have no inputs at all. You issue orders from
down below, and you predict your position from tide tables. etc.

I believe the "tide tables. etc." was the info joe was looking for. As I
said, I was getting a "glimmer" of this from your responses, but wasn't
absolutely sure.


I'm only talking about standard stuff, currents, leeway, etc.

It is probably designed to show your real passage planning abilities, and
your likely performance in fog.

..... and as you say, "passage planning" is an area that many people do
not make enough use of, and an area that can save a good deal of grief
if properly employed.


I, for one, would be interested in the specifics of this test, but from
your description, don't have a clue as to what's involved, though I'm
beginning to pick up some glimmers, that it's a basic piloting exam.


I've described the test several times.
You are sent below, where the ports(windows) have been blacked out.
You have your starting position clearly marked on the chart.. After 1/2
hour you are asked to mark your current position on the chart.

While you are below, you may issue instructions. eg course to steer.
I don't remember if you are told the speed.

The examiner will check the accuracy of your plot, and decide if you merit
a pass. The examiner decides what accuracy he requires.

Again, see John E's response.

It's 13-14 years since I did the course, so I'm cannot give you the
specifics of what is required.

understood


13 years ago, there was far less electronics on boats. There wasn't even
GPS.

I think it's been a bit longer than that....course, the time element of
change from "sat nav" to "gps" is kinda blurry ... sat nav being in the
early 80's

Hmmm, who's trolling? Joe claims that doing 25 knots in fog under radar
alone is safe. He refuses to believe that you can use tide tables and a
chart to plan a course that you can actually use without much further
assistance. Now you expect me to remember all the precise details of
something that I studied 13 years ago!

G I think you misread/understood what Joe was saying (at least, I read
his statement differently) No one runs the type of boat he was talking
about, in fog, at those speeds, under radar "alone".
The route is well known, local knowledge is extensive, tides and
currents are well known and specific, as are traffic patterns,
densities, etc., and a lookout is normal (lookout may not be on the bow
as this could be dangerous, but there will be one, though I recognize
"idiots" exist in all quarters).
Now, as to your memory ..... of course I expect you to remember those
details .... just don't expect me to remember the details of my "radar
recertification" I did @6 mos ago.

otn


Regards


Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
So, are you claiming you don't receive actual speed, or wind readings? Or
depth? Compass headings? Buoys passed? Sounds heard?

John E has obviously been through it recently, and I think that he gave a
good answer. I believe him when he says he was given some details about the
buoys passed.

As I pointed out earlier, it is 13 years since I did this stuff.



If you don't get any of this, why bother doing it on board; you could do
the
same thing in a class room.

John has also said that you will be given the compass heading if the crew
cannot maintain the course that you request.



You made one of your typical outrageous claims, and then have refused to
clarify.

Jeff, what outrageous claim do you think that I made?

I clarified to the best of my ability.

How is this not trolling?

Jeff, every post that asks for a response, is in some way a troll.

Was MC trolling when he pointed out the part of Rule 2 that you had
studiously avoided for the last couple of weeks? Or were you trolling when
you stated that a kayak "had no business" to be in a TSS. Were you
trolling when you suggested [and later retracted] that ships could keep a
lookout by radar alone?

Let's face facts Jeff. I've done something to upset you, haven't I? Was
it the position that I took in last year's "pecking order in fog"
discussion? That was a real Neal classic! I freely admit that I played
devil's advocate in that thread. As well as being quite hilarious, the
thread proved very informative, even if you never actually managed to prove
your point.

Just for the record, I *never* troll.


Regards

Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
ink.net...
Comments interspersed: See John E's response

I've seen it, and it looks like he has done the test recently.


Donal wrote:


The question was "How can this be done?".

I've tried to answer the question, but Joe doesn't want to believe me.
I've also tried to give "real life" examples.

As far as I remember, you have no inputs at all. You issue orders from
down below, and you predict your position from tide tables. etc.

I believe the "tide tables. etc." was the info joe was looking for. As I
said, I was getting a "glimmer" of this from your responses, but wasn't
absolutely sure.


I thought that I mentioned these fairly early in the conversation.




I'm only talking about standard stuff, currents, leeway, etc.

It is probably designed to show your real passage planning abilities,
and
your likely performance in fog.

.... and as you say, "passage planning" is an area that many people do
not make enough use of, and an area that can save a good deal of grief
if properly employed.

Before taking the family on cross-channel trips, I always make sure that my
wife and eldest son do a passage plan. That way, if anything happens to me
they should be able to carry on.

I've also taught my kids that using the GPS means a longer crossing, even
when you allow for the *predicted* tide. The tides are rarely exactly as
predicted. This doesn't matter much on a 12-14 hour crossing, because if
the tide goes faster one way, then it will also go faster the other way. So
we usually stick to our course. Big errors usually correct themselves when
the tide turns.





I, for one, would be interested in the specifics of this test, but from
your description, don't have a clue as to what's involved, though I'm
beginning to pick up some glimmers, that it's a basic piloting exam.


I've described the test several times.
You are sent below, where the ports(windows) have been blacked out.
You have your starting position clearly marked on the chart.. After 1/2
hour you are asked to mark your current position on the chart.

While you are below, you may issue instructions. eg course to steer.
I don't remember if you are told the speed.

The examiner will check the accuracy of your plot, and decide if you
merit
a pass. The examiner decides what accuracy he requires.

Again, see John E's response.

It's 13-14 years since I did the course, so I'm cannot give you the
specifics of what is required.

understood


13 years ago, there was far less electronics on boats. There wasn't
even
GPS.

I think it's been a bit longer than that....course, the time element of
change from "sat nav" to "gps" is kinda blurry ... sat nav being in the
early 80's

The only nav systems that I saw on boats was Decca. Maybe GPS sets were too
expensive???



Hmmm, who's trolling? Joe claims that doing 25 knots in fog under
radar
alone is safe. He refuses to believe that you can use tide tables and a
chart to plan a course that you can actually use without much further
assistance. Now you expect me to remember all the precise details of
something that I studied 13 years ago!

G I think you misread/understood what Joe was saying (at least, I read
his statement differently) No one runs the type of boat he was talking
about, in fog, at those speeds, under radar "alone".

Did you read the thread? He seemed pretty clear on the subject, and
defended his position quite vigourously.


The route is well known, local knowledge is extensive, tides and
currents are well known and specific, as are traffic patterns,
densities, etc., and a lookout is normal (lookout may not be on the bow
as this could be dangerous, but there will be one, though I recognize
"idiots" exist in all quarters).

Joe was adamant that he used radar, and didn't need any other form of
lookout.

Now, as to your memory ..... of course I expect you to remember those
details .... just don't expect me to remember the details of my "radar
recertification" I did @6 mos ago.


I've come to the conclusion that you remember the things that are of
practical use. For example, I have forgotton almost all of the morse code.

I've also forgotton what most identification lights mean. If they have
anything unusual, then I give way.


Regards


Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Hi Jeff,

"without the use of any electronic device" is the way I (and many of my
classic owning friends) still sail today as my little cruiser (195x
Hillyard) only has an electronic echo sounder (no power feed from the 195x
Stuart 2 stroke and only a 22watt solar panel for a trickle charge on the
lighting circuit), pitching the lead when single handed and closing on a lee
shore in fog is a real bummer (I have got a lead & line in the locker
though) ;-))

The whole tilt on the YachtMaster Offshore and Ocean is the practical aspect
and the ability to deliver on the water, not just in the confines of the
classroom. The YM does have a theory component but to get you ticket you
have to perform on the day on the water (as well as having the minimum time
aboard day and night and the miles logged), in my case the middle of
November, English winter, -17 chill factor and a 30Kt wind blowing. Fun?
Not!

JohnE

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the description - that makes a lot of sense. By comparison,
the test
in the US for 6-pack or 100 ton Master's includes similar chartwork, but
performed in the classroom, without a serious time limit. (And, of
course, it
assumes powerboats.) For someone experienced, its much easier than being
on
board, but it can be more difficult for some people, because the chart
used may
be completely unfamiliar and dis-orienting. (Not that its supposed to be
easy
...)

The way you say "without the use of any electronic device" makes it sound
like
its a test of ancient and arcane arts. In reality, its the way most of us
sailed up until about 10 year ago.

-jeff

"John.E" wrote in message
...
This was applied in my exam... (sailing not motoring)

I got about two minutes to fix my position from a 3point/running fix and
I
was sent then below decks (with curtains closed and no outside view)...
Once below I was then supplied with my target...
(a bouy about 6-7 Nm away along the Solent, a very busy stretch of
water
full of commercial and pleasure traffic)
I was allowed the following info...
crew were permitted to supply shape of any bouy passed within
5-10mtrs... (not colour or markings)
crew could supply compass heading if course requested heading could
not
be achieved... (under sail, no motors)
crew could supply speed through water from log reading... (no VMG or
other compute details)
crew could supply current depth from echo sounder... (I assume the a
leadline is concidered to be aboard)
charts of given exam area and tidal atlas...
The examiner would also feed me various sound signals just to spcie
things
up!

There you have it, the only info available was information that could be
gleaned without the use of any electronic device and no engines used.

JohnE

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Donal wrote in message ...

( lanods backpeddeling sniped for space)

You are sent below, where the ports(windows) have been blacked out.

Do you have a compass below?


You have your starting position clearly marked on the chart.. After 1/2
hour you are asked to mark your current position on the chart.

While you are below, you may issue instructions. eg course to steer.
I don't remember if you are told the speed.

figure the distance of the seperation of each wave. Count the number
of waves that slapped your hull and divide to get distance, take your
distance and divide by time and you should have speed. Simple, you
should have to be told your speed if your a true Yachtmaster.


The examiner will check the accuracy of your plot, and decide if you merit
a pass. The examiner decides what accuracy he requires.

It's 13-14 years since I did the course, so I'm cannot give you the
specifics of what is required.

13 years ago, there was far less electronics on boats. There wasn't even
GPS.

No kidding! Did you have loran? How about a sextant?





Simply stated, give Ole Joe some basic info to work with and maybe he'll
stop asking questions ..... or is this a troll ?


Hmmm, who's trolling? Joe claims that doing 25 knots in fog under radar
alone is safe.

Stop twisting the facts Lanod. It is safe if you know the area, know
the radar picture, and your radars ability, know how to use a radio,
and know how to pass safely.

Its not a troll when you have done it a thousand times , It's a fact.


He refuses to believe that you can use tide tables and a
chart to plan a course that you can actually use without much further
assistance.

LIAR, I can do that with ease. However I can not be put in a
wheelhouse
with the windows blackened out and navigate with no external imput
like you claimed the yachtmaster test required.

And you ought to do something about that sweating problem.


Now you expect me to remember all the precise details of
something that I studied 13 years ago!


You better go back for a refresher course lanod.



Regards


Donal
--

Joe
MSV RedCloud

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
"Joe" wrote in message
om...

snip

You certainly do not need to be told your position at the start of the
blind
test, as at that point you were not navigating blindly.

Oh OK, that makes sence. When I learned to navigate we needed to know
were we were, that was some of the basic stuff.

Exactly.
You do not ask the crew for the compass reading. As the navigator you
*tell* the crew what the compass heading should be.

But you have to look at the compass to tell what your course is,
therefore the compass is giving you imput, can you understand this
farout concept?


No, you tell the crew what course to steer. As John E has pointed out, they
may tell you if they cannot steer to your course, and tell you what course
they can make. I didn't remember the rules on the last bit, but it makes
sense.


If I am navigator, then I direct the course changes.

Not if you move blind into a strong current, the current might set
your course and drift, without external imput from your compass you
will not be able to accurately tell your deviation from orignal
heading, if you are blind that is.

I don't follow you. A strong current at sea shouldn't change the compass
heading??? It may change your course, but then again, the test is meant to
show if you are aware of the currents.

The only way that the compass reading could be affected by currents is if
the boat was being steered by the GPS.





...... go on Joe, you really want to mention "meeting" or "crossing"
situations, don't you?

Yeah and being blind without external imput meeting situation are
going to be very risky huh?


No, the crew, including the examiner won't crash the boat!




A competent navigator will have used his tide tables before he sets out
on
his trip. In fact, I mentioned this a couple of years ago. I always
insist
that my wife and my sons do independent passage plans before a long
passage
so that they will really *know* where we are if something happens to me.



Tide tables?

Yes! Navigators use them when their GPS sets break down.


They do! Wow your smart.

Why did you ask?


About as good as your description of blind navigation with no imput at
all, you know the "Waves slapping on the hull" line you spewed. Your
yachtmaster exam sounds like what a basic OS or AB would sit for.
Basic Basic Basic. Your the only one that thinks it is , difficult,
mysterious, and a great feat of navigation.

I don't think any such thing at all. I see it as a recreational boater's
qualification. AFAIK, you cannot use it to get many professional jobs.




Regards


Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
So, are you claiming you don't receive actual speed, or wind readings?
Or
depth? Compass headings? Buoys passed? Sounds heard?

John E has obviously been through it recently, and I think that he gave a
good answer. I believe him when he says he was given some details about
the
buoys passed.

As I pointed out earlier, it is 13 years since I did this stuff.



If you don't get any of this, why bother doing it on board; you could do
the
same thing in a class room.

John has also said that you will be given the compass heading if the crew
cannot maintain the course that you request.



You made one of your typical outrageous claims, and then have refused to
clarify.

Jeff, what outrageous claim do you think that I made?

I clarified to the best of my ability.

How is this not trolling?

Jeff, every post that asks for a response, is in some way a troll.

Was MC trolling when he pointed out the part of Rule 2 that you had
studiously avoided for the last couple of weeks? Or were you trolling
when
you stated that a kayak "had no business" to be in a TSS. Were you
trolling when you suggested [and later retracted] that ships could keep a
lookout by radar alone?

Let's face facts Jeff. I've done something to upset you, haven't I?
Was
it the position that I took in last year's "pecking order in fog"
discussion? That was a real Neal classic! I freely admit that I played
devil's advocate in that thread. As well as being quite hilarious, the
thread proved very informative, even if you never actually managed to
prove
your point.

Just for the record, I *never* troll.


Regards

Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
Donal wrote in message
...

( lanods backpeddeling sniped for space)

You are sent below, where the ports(windows) have been blacked
out.

Do you have a compass below?

No!




You have your starting position clearly marked on the chart.. After 1/2
hour you are asked to mark your current position on the chart.

While you are below, you may issue instructions. eg course to steer.
I don't remember if you are told the speed.

figure the distance of the seperation of each wave. Count the number
of waves that slapped your hull and divide to get distance, take your
distance and divide by time and you should have speed. Simple, you
should have to be told your speed if your a true Yachtmaster.





The examiner will check the accuracy of your plot, and decide if you
merit
a pass. The examiner decides what accuracy he requires.

It's 13-14 years since I did the course, so I'm cannot give you the
specifics of what is required.

13 years ago, there was far less electronics on boats. There wasn't
even
GPS.

No kidding! Did you have loran? How about a sextant?

No! I bought my first, and only, GPS about 6-7 years ago.






Simply stated, give Ole Joe some basic info to work with and maybe
he'll
stop asking questions ..... or is this a troll ?


Hmmm, who's trolling? Joe claims that doing 25 knots in fog under
radar
alone is safe.

Stop twisting the facts Lanod. It is safe if you know the area, know
the radar picture, and your radars ability, know how to use a radio,
and know how to pass safely.

Twisting the facts???? You've just repeated them again!



Its not a troll when you have done it a thousand times , It's a fact.


He refuses to believe that you can use tide tables and a
chart to plan a course that you can actually use without much further
assistance.

LIAR, I can do that with ease. However I can not be put in a
wheelhouse
with the windows blackened out and navigate with no external imput
like you claimed the yachtmaster test required.

Hmmmm! You have a steering wheel in the wheelhouse, don't you?

I'm beginning to think that you are confusing the word "navigate" with
"steer"!


Regards

Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
So, are you claiming you don't receive actual speed, or wind readings? Or
depth? Compass headings? Buoys passed? Sounds heard?

John E has obviously been through it recently, and I think that he gave a
good answer. I believe him when he says he was given some details about the
buoys passed.

As I pointed out earlier, it is 13 years since I did this stuff.


I didn't expect you to remember all the details, but you did say "NO external
imputs." Regardless of your memory, you have to admit this is a bit farfetched.




If you don't get any of this, why bother doing it on board; you could do
the
same thing in a class room.

John has also said that you will be given the compass heading if the crew
cannot maintain the course that you request.


John described a quite reasonable procedure.



You made one of your typical outrageous claims, and then have refused to
clarify.

Jeff, what outrageous claim do you think that I made?


You said:
Yachtmasters only have to show that they can navigate without external
inputs to prove that they understand the basic principles of navigation.

You repeated the claim of "no imputs" even after the obvious paradox was pointed
out.

I clarified to the best of my ability.

You had plenty of opportunity say "maybe we had speed and depth," but you
evaded that. That's why it was a troll.



How is this not trolling?

Jeff, every post that asks for a response, is in some way a troll.

Was MC trolling when he pointed out the part of Rule 2 that you had
studiously avoided for the last couple of weeks?

As I recall, when I said rule 2 was relevant to the kayak situation you said
that was ridiculous. Its too much work to look it up now unless you insist.

I didn't suggest rule 2 was relevant to your "25 knots in the fog" case simply
because I never denied that it would be reckless if the was no lookout, and in
any case I wasn't familiar with the area.


Or were you trolling when
you stated that a kayak "had no business" to be in a TSS.

Maybe a bit, but I was willing to back up my claim. However, with the exception
of you and Rick, no one disagreed with me. The only issue in question was the
legality, not the propriety.

Were you
trolling when you suggested [and later retracted] that ships could keep a
lookout by radar alone?

I never said that and you know it. My "retraction" was the very next sentence,
not a later post. This is why I consider you a cowardly liar, and a troll of
the lowest order. I take that back, RB has at times been worse, so I guess its
a tossup.


Let's face facts Jeff. I've done something to upset you, haven't I?

No not at all! I rather enjoy it. Its just that after a while you get to be an
embarrassment!

Was
it the position that I took in last year's "pecking order in fog"
discussion? That was a real Neal classic! I freely admit that I played
devil's advocate in that thread.

You certainly didn't play an intelligent person.

As well as being quite hilarious, the
thread proved very informative, even if you never actually managed to prove
your point.

Prove my point? I didn't have to "prove my point" since everyone except you and
Neal agreed with me. Neal was resorting to claiming that the Naval Academy
textbook was part of a left wing conspiracy! I only persisted because I was
afraid that some naive fool (maybe even you?) might believe Neal's claim that
sailboats are the stand-on vessel in the fog.

BTW, an odd coincidence: I received the Ocean Navigator "Rules of the Road
Newsletter" yesterday and it describes a radar-assisted collision between a ship
and a sailboat. It was a generally confused situation where the sailboat
thought it was the stand-on vessel. On this point the newsletter says:
"regardless of those two possible assumptions, stand-on/give-way do not exist
when the vessels are not in sight."


Just for the record, I *never* troll.

Then why did I respond?

-jeff

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Donal wrote:
"otnmbrd" wrote in message


.... and as you say, "passage planning" is an area that many people do
not make enough use of, and an area that can save a good deal of grief
if properly employed.


Before taking the family on cross-channel trips, I always make sure that my
wife and eldest son do a passage plan. That way, if anything happens to me
they should be able to carry on.

I've also taught my kids that using the GPS means a longer crossing, even
when you allow for the *predicted* tide. The tides are rarely exactly as
predicted. This doesn't matter much on a 12-14 hour crossing, because if
the tide goes faster one way, then it will also go faster the other way. So
we usually stick to our course. Big errors usually correct themselves when
the tide turns.

One of the "problems" with using GPS exclusively for navigation, is that
often we either forget or never learn some of the "old" tricks that were
used, prior to GPS.
For instance, there are many routes that people take, where they knew
the effects of current and didn't bother with course change that the GPS
may show as needed to make point "B" from point "A". Prior to GPS, you'd
set one course and never change it (on these routes) and no matter how
far you wandered off the base course line, you left the course alone,
because when you got to point "B", you'd have wandered back to where you
wanted to be.


13 years ago, there was far less electronics on boats. There wasn't

even

GPS.

I think it's been a bit longer than that....course, the time element of
change from "sat nav" to "gps" is kinda blurry ... sat nav being in the
early 80's


The only nav systems that I saw on boats was Decca. Maybe GPS sets were too
expensive???

Until GPS, SAT NAV sets tended to be expensive, required (initially)
knowing antenna height, and only gave positions when they had satellites
aligned (visible) so they may not give you positions as and when you
really needed them, which meant you best be using other methods also.



Hmmm, who's trolling? Joe claims that doing 25 knots in fog under

radar

alone is safe. He refuses to believe that you can use tide tables and a
chart to plan a course that you can actually use without much further
assistance. Now you expect me to remember all the precise details of
something that I studied 13 years ago!

G I think you misread/understood what Joe was saying (at least, I read
his statement differently) No one runs the type of boat he was talking
about, in fog, at those speeds, under radar "alone".


Did you read the thread? He seemed pretty clear on the subject, and
defended his position quite vigourously.

Been following it all along. We are obviously interpreting it differently.



The route is well known, local knowledge is extensive, tides and
currents are well known and specific, as are traffic patterns,
densities, etc., and a lookout is normal (lookout may not be on the bow
as this could be dangerous, but there will be one, though I recognize
"idiots" exist in all quarters).


Joe was adamant that he used radar, and didn't need any other form of
lookout.

I read he was using radar as his most immediate and important source of
traffic and navigation information, not his only source. If he didn't
have a second pair of eyes from among the crew, also watching from some
position, then shame on him.


Now, as to your memory ..... of course I expect you to remember those
details .... just don't expect me to remember the details of my "radar
recertification" I did @6 mos ago.



I've come to the conclusion that you remember the things that are of
practical use. For example, I have forgotton almost all of the morse code.

still remember that

I've also forgotton what most identification lights mean. If they have
anything unusual, then I give way.

G good reason to always have the "Rules" book handy. I try to read it
cover to cover every 6 mos, and frequently thumb through the "lights"
section at other times, especially if I've been caught short on making
an identity, while underway.

To be honest, getting into these discussions, has and is an excellent
way to maintain "Rules" currency.
Were you aware, that the latest change to rule 8(a), was mainly an
attempt to emphasis the rule regarding changing course to port to avoid
a collision? BG Just thought I'd throw that in there.

otn


Regards


Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
So, are you claiming you don't receive actual speed, or wind readings?
Or
depth? Compass headings? Buoys passed? Sounds heard?

John E has obviously been through it recently, and I think that he gave a
good answer. I believe him when he says he was given some details about
the
buoys passed.

As I pointed out earlier, it is 13 years since I did this stuff.

snip

Donal
--


Prior to a key press from our 5yr old this is what I intended to post...

Donal, I did my exam around 11 years ago. I had just started sailing and was
studying my CC, DS, CS and YMOf & YMOc at the time you claim to have passed
yours.
I can not say I noticed the exam guideline or curriculum changing in that
time. Which leads to my questions...

Do really have a YM?
Which is it?
What endorsments do you carry?
What is your issue number? At the rate they were/are awarded I would imagine
we will be within 1000 of each other.

Go on, be brave, face me down on this one. I will eat humble pie if needed
but IMO you are a faker!

JohnE

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

Donal wrote:



I've also forgotton what most lights mean. If they have
anything unusual, then I give way.


Even to channel markers?
;-P
Cheers

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

John.E wrote:

Hi Jeff,

"without the use of any electronic device" is the way I (and many of my
classic owning friends) still sail today as my little cruiser (195x
Hillyard) only has an electronic echo sounder (no power feed from the 195x
Stuart 2 stroke and only a 22watt solar panel for a trickle charge on the
lighting circuit), pitching the lead when single handed and closing on a lee
shore in fog is a real bummer (I have got a lead & line in the locker
though) ;-))

The whole tilt on the YachtMaster Offshore and Ocean is the practical aspect
and the ability to deliver on the water, not just in the confines of the
classroom. The YM does have a theory component but to get you ticket you
have to perform on the day on the water (as well as having the minimum time
aboard day and night and the miles logged), in my case the middle of
November, English winter, -17 chill factor and a 30Kt wind blowing. Fun?
Not!

Not only that, what about the case in Heavy Weather sailing where a
whole YM
examination class set sail into a full gale!

Cheers MC

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"Lanods latest words of wisdom"

Hmmmm! You have a steering wheel in the wheelhouse, don't you?

No I have a helm.



I'm beginning to think that you are confusing the word "navigate" with
"steer"!

Steering in the right direction is navigating you dunce. If your down
below and the guy above on the steering wheel (helm) is going in
circles and figure 8's it kind of hard to Navigate without any imput
with no compass below.

At least I'm smart enough to put a compass over my bunk and one at my
nav station. Guess your are blacked out like a true Yachtmasters
should be.


Joe
MSV RedCloud





Regards

Donal
--

A Tachtmaster wanna be said
 

"John.E" wrote in message m...
This was applied in my exam... (sailing not motoring)

I got about two minutes to fix my position from a 3point/running fix and I
was sent then below decks (with curtains closed and no outside view)...
Once below I was then supplied with my target...
(a bouy about 6-7 Nm away along the Solent, a very busy stretch of water
full of commercial and pleasure traffic)
I was allowed the following info...
crew were permitted to supply shape of any bouy passed within
5-10mtrs... (not colour or markings)
crew could supply compass heading if course requested heading could not
be achieved... (under sail, no motors)
crew could supply speed through water from log reading... (no VMG or
other compute details)
crew could supply current depth from echo sounder... (I assume the a
leadline is concidered to be aboard)
charts of given exam area and tidal atlas...
The examiner would also feed me various sound signals just to spcie things
up!

There you have it, the only info available was information that could be
gleaned without the use of any electronic device and no engines used.

JohnE

Thanks John,

Excellent description.

With so many clues and imputs it seems to be fairly basic. With the
shapes of bouys who needs to know the color, and with the spacing
being far enough apart its real easy to reckon. With sound signals and
depth reading you should be able to stay in a channel and know exactly
were you are, or know when your getting out of it, and perhaps plot
your progress thru any area that has a bottom that varies in depth.
All this information that can be combined on any detailed chart for a
fairly accurate fix.

One mistake., You said all the information must be gleened without the
use of any electronic aids. And unless your using a lead line you were
cheating.

Joe
MSV RedCloud



"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

No external imput at all.

How can this be done?

Joe
MSV RedCloud