Donal wrote:
Common sense tells me that doing 25 kts in fog is stupid.


http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...504230-07.hcsp

http://www.shipownersclub.com/losspr...asia/39495.htm


Its Joes license at stake, the acceptable risk is his to bear.

We have similar issues in the keys running tourists to the reef: if
the weather is borderline and we cancel we lose revenue to competion
who will accept the risk.

IF We don't run , we lose needed revenue to competition. Its the
captians responsibility to assess weather for Each and Every trip. I
have run plenty of trips where conditions were fine for sailing but
not snorkelling and I have been quite clear to all passengers about
the conditions and once I explain expected conditions its common for
some to drop out, I would rather lose them upfront than have them go
and not have a good time because it was too rough. People actually
show up at the dock with winds @25knots expecting to go snorkelling in
conditions reflected by postcard photographs....
I remember explaining to one family about the rough conditions over
the phone, THEY WANTED TO GO. THEY DIDN'T CARE. When they showed up
at the dock they hadn't mentioned their small kids or the pregnant
wife in her 8&1/2 month. I thought these people were absolutely nuts
and they were quite upset when I cancelled.

(Roy G. Biv) wrote in message . com...
Donal wrote:
Common sense tells me that doing 25 kts in fog is stupid.


http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...504230-07.hcsp

Good example of a major ****-up. If Donal paid attention he would of
read that I never pass or overtake at full speed. And I always do
everything I can to talk to the other vessel and make passing
agreements. Even after talking I will creep pass the other vessel
before getting back up on plane. These idiots assumed to much and paid
for it. I always treat the other vesseel in fog like Donal is at the
wheel and expect them to do something stupid.


http://www.shipownersclub.com/losspr...asia/39495.htm

Another great example of a **** up. Both had radars set at .75 miles
moving at 30 knots. If donal read my post he would see that I set my
radars at 1.5 miles and have well over 2 minutes to stop if I meet
another crewboat doing 20 knots.
And I have time to talk and AGREE on what whistle we are going to
pass.

Dont know if you remember Donal but I told a story here once about
being on a 120 foot fully loaded crew boat named the Destiny doing
over 20 knots that had a head on collision with another 110 foot
crewboat named the Dare doing 20 knots empty. I was the relief skipper
and in the bunk expecting to wake up and off load cargo at the rig and
bring the boat back in. The show off asshole capt that was taking the
boat out made a one whistle passing agreement with the inbound boat.
My wife who was a deckhand at the time was seriously injured. Over 400
thousand dollars damage done to both boats. All because the asshole
was trying to show off and roar pass another boat as it roared in. She
said the last thing she saw before impact was a green light. I have
seen first hand what can go wrong. But I also know it can be done
safely. It's a serious business not for the meek, or the showoff.

Joe
MSV RedCloud







Its Joes license at stake, the acceptable risk is his to bear.

We have similar issues in the keys running tourists to the reef: if
the weather is borderline and we cancel we lose revenue to competion
who will accept the risk.

IF We don't run , we lose needed revenue to competition. Its the
captians responsibility to assess weather for Each and Every trip. I
have run plenty of trips where conditions were fine for sailing but
not snorkelling and I have been quite clear to all passengers about
the conditions and once I explain expected conditions its common for
some to drop out, I would rather lose them upfront than have them go
and not have a good time because it was too rough. People actually
show up at the dock with winds @25knots expecting to go snorkelling in
conditions reflected by postcard photographs....
I remember explaining to one family about the rough conditions over
the phone, THEY WANTED TO GO. THEY DIDN'T CARE. When they showed up
at the dock they hadn't mentioned their small kids or the pregnant
wife in her 8&1/2 month. I thought these people were absolutely nuts
and they were quite upset when I cancelled.

Donal is right. I never leave the slip if there's even a hint of fog.
Or if fog is predicted. Or when rain is forecast. Or winds above 6
kts.

RB

Joe wrote:
(Roy G. Biv) wrote in message . com...

Donal wrote:

Common sense tells me that doing 25 kts in fog is stupid.


http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...504230-07.hcsp


Good example of a major ****-up. If Donal paid attention he would of
read that I never pass or overtake at full speed. And I always do
everything I can to talk to the other vessel and make passing
agreements. Even after talking I will creep pass the other vessel
before getting back up on plane. These idiots assumed to much and paid
for it. I always treat the other vesseel in fog like Donal is at the
wheel and expect them to do something stupid.


http://www.shipownersclub.com/losspr...asia/39495.htm


Another great example of a **** up. Both had radars set at .75 miles
moving at 30 knots. If donal read my post he would see that I set my
radars at 1.5 miles and have well over 2 minutes to stop if I meet
another crewboat doing 20 knots.
And I have time to talk and AGREE on what whistle we are going to
pass.


Depends on where you are and what your set-up is.
If you are running HSC or the Miss., this would not be bad, especially
if you only have one set. If you had two, for that type boat, depending
on where you are, I might suggest one set at 3.0m and the other on 1.5
(scanning down on the 1.5m set, at times.)
Once clear of the channel, into the Gulf, I'd probably kick one set up
to 6.0m (at least) and the other to 3.0m (if only one set, 3.0m with
kick ups to 6.0m)then scan the 3.0m set, down, on occasion.
G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different.
For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these
conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and
take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living.

otn

So, it's OK to run over and kill people in
the name of making a living? I'd love
to be in the courtroom when you spout
that as a defense.

S.Simon

"otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net...
G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different.
For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these
conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and
take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living.

otn

Neal, you probably don't need to worry about that, since you
would likely be the dead party.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
So, it's OK to run over and kill people in
the name of making a living? I'd love
to be in the courtroom when you spout
that as a defense.

S.Simon

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
nk.net...
G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different.
For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these
conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and
take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living.

otn

Typically, uninformed statement.
In answer to your question .... No.
However, typically, commercial operators get caught in situations over
which they have no control, and have to continue on (For instance, I've
left the dock at Baton Rouge, La. and encountered fog shortly thereafter
and had no choice but to continue downriver because there was no
anchorage available.) or it's the nature of their business that they
have to go in all conditions and try to maintain a semblance of a
schedule .... which may mean that conditions will allow normal speeds,
but generally means they will frequently be slowing and then speeding
back up, or staying slow the whole way .... it's not a "yes or no"
condition.

Simple Simon wrote:
So, it's OK to run over and kill people in
the name of making a living? I'd love
to be in the courtroom when you spout
that as a defense.

S.Simon

"otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net...

G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different.
For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these
conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and
take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living.

otn

Capt. Otn,

It appears to me Joe is saying if it's a commercial
venture and not recreational boating then it's OK
to proceed in an unsafe manner while ignoring or
bending the Rules of the Road as applicable to
restricted visibility. It appears to me that you are
agreeing with him.

Appearances are sometimes misleading so I will
give you the benefit of the doubt because no
self-respecting, law abiding, USCG licensed Master
would knowingly and proudly claim he either ignores
or breaks specific COLREGS in the name of commerce.

The COLREGS apply to all vessels - there is no
distinction between commercial vessels and private
vessels when it comes to operating in restricted
visibility and to claim going 25 knots in restricted
visibility in congested areas like the lower Mississippi
and Gulf of Mexico is a safe and normal practice is
to show ignorance of the law and a disregard for
safety of life at sea. While you aren't saying this
directly your agreeing with one who IS does not
bode well for your common sense, education or
professionalism.

S.Simon




"otnmbrd" wrote in message news
Typically, uninformed statement.
In answer to your question .... No.
However, typically, commercial operators get caught in situations over
which they have no control, and have to continue on (For instance, I've
left the dock at Baton Rouge, La. and encountered fog shortly thereafter
and had no choice but to continue downriver because there was no
anchorage available.) or it's the nature of their business that they
have to go in all conditions and try to maintain a semblance of a
schedule .... which may mean that conditions will allow normal speeds,
but generally means they will frequently be slowing and then speeding
back up, or staying slow the whole way .... it's not a "yes or no"
condition.

Simple Simon wrote:
So, it's OK to run over and kill people in
the name of making a living? I'd love
to be in the courtroom when you spout
that as a defense.

S.Simon

"otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net...

G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different.
For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these
conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and
take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living.

otn

Comments interspersed:

Simple Simon wrote:
Capt. Otn,

It appears to me Joe is saying if it's a commercial
venture and not recreational boating then it's OK
to proceed in an unsafe manner while ignoring or
bending the Rules of the Road as applicable to
restricted visibility. It appears to me that you are
agreeing with him.

I can't speak for Joe, only the conditions.
First off, read rule 6 again. Each operator must consider a safe speed
under ANY conditions of visibility, the maneuverability of the
particular vessel, the navigation equipment, etc..
For you, in your vessel, in fog, to proceed at 6k, would be excessive
speed. You have no radar, and thusly, no way to closely monitor and be
aware of traffic within your area, and with your small outboard, a crash
stop will probably take a couple of boat lengths. Add to this, that you
are rarely underway, except on some weekends for a few hours and may or
may not be traveling familiar routes.
Now, let's take the "Joe's" of the world. They're running day in and day
out, on the same routes, in all conditions, and are highly familiar with
radar and what they see on it .... to them, the only difference between
a clear day and a foggy day, is how they get their visual input as to
where they are and where they're going, and their boats can stop in a
boat length or less (especially if they've slowed down for something
they're not sure of).

Are they breaking the rules? G In some cases yes. In some cases maybe,
and in some cases, not really (won't say "no", because that doesn't
exist). Do I condone this type of operation? ..... only if they make it
through their entire career, without an accident......Try to understand
this, Neal .... this paragraph applies to me as well as all others.

Appearances are sometimes misleading so I will
give you the benefit of the doubt because no
self-respecting, law abiding, USCG licensed Master
would knowingly and proudly claim he either ignores
or breaks specific COLREGS in the name of commerce.

I break specific COLREGS all the time. Rule 2, allows me to do this and
says that I will, if conditions warrant. The difference is, I try to
obey the COLREGS, whenever possible .... it's not always possible.


The COLREGS apply to all vessels - there is no
distinction between commercial vessels and private
vessels when it comes to operating in restricted
visibility and to claim going 25 knots in restricted
visibility in congested areas like the lower Mississippi
and Gulf of Mexico is a safe and normal practice is
to show ignorance of the law and a disregard for
safety of life at sea. While you aren't saying this
directly your agreeing with one who IS does not
bode well for your common sense, education or
professionalism.

G The vast majority of traffic in the lower Miss. is commercial, and
it's generally not all that congested, except to an amateur, such as
yourself. If you paid attention to the radio traffic in that area, you'd
know that all these vessels are in frequent and constant radio
communication with each other, for "passing situations", be it clear or
restricted visibility.
These people are NOT showing ignorance of the law, OR a disregard for
safety of life at sea. What they ARE doing, is operating at a level,
which FAR exceeds your understanding and abilities AND license
qualifications.
As per usual, Neal, you are trying to discuss a subject, on a level that
you have no chance of attaining, and even less, understanding.

otn

"Simple Simon" wrote in message ...
So, it's OK to run over and kill people in
the name of making a living? I'd love
to be in the courtroom when you spout
that as a defense.

S.Simon

No it's not OK to run over and kill anyone.

But most ships have radars that cost 10 times what your boat cost.
They are excellent tools that you use with radios gps,s chart plotters
ect that allow you to do a job safely, that can not be done on the
adverage recreation craft.

Plus Ships in a channel usually require pilots, guys that during an
exam have to draw a chart of a ship channel and harbor from memeory
including every aid to navigation, dock, ect. They have 100's if not
thousands of trips in that local area.

Tell me Neil, Do you have a radar endorsement on the back of your
licences? How's about a radio endorsement? How's about any
endorsements?

Didn't think so.

Your basic, and with your attitude you will stay a basic mariner,
never a master mariner.

Joe
MSV RedCloud





"otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net...
G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different.
For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these
conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and
take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living.

otn