I guess in pieman land you get light fog only. Here in North Calif you get
friggin fog so thick you can not see the front of the car from the drivers
seat!
Bill

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Extremely thick fog is mostly a myth. Yes, it occurs on
occassion but the general run of the mill fog is not so thick
that vessels can collide without ever seeing one another.

At any rate, the worst case scenario of pea soup thick fog
is but one case of restricted visibility and the majority of
the other cases definitely allow in-sight situations in or
near an area of restricted visibility. In sight situations
are ruled by the in sight rules which specify give-way and
stand-on status for vessels in sight of one another.

Jeff, Otnmbrd, Shen44 and Rick have up till now maintained
there is NEVER a stand-on vessel in or near an area of
restricted visibility while I have maintained there IS a stand-on
and give-way vessel in or near an area of restricted visibility.

I'm right and they're wrong - that's the bottom line.

I maintain that my sailboat even in a thick fog is going at
a safe speed by virtue of the fact that the hull speed is less
than seven knots max. Many fogs have little or no wind so
I may well be going even slower. Even if the winds are brisk
in a fog and I'm going hull speed I'm still going at a safe speed.
In effect, I'm standing on and I'm doing it completely legally.

If I hear the fog signal of a motor vessel I know right away
if and when we come in sight of each other I am the stand-on
vessel and the motor vessel is the give way vessel unless I'm
overtaking the motor vessel which is not likely at all considering
they all think safe speed is 10-15 knots instead of the usual
20-30 knots - let's face the facts here for once. Therefore,
I keep going at my safe speed of five or six knots and try
to determine by the sound signal if there's a danger of collision.
If I determine there is a danger of collision I change course -
I'm certainly not going to take all sails down and come to
a stop and become a sitting duck to be run over and sunk
by a ship not keeping an adequate lookout and going too
fast for the conditions. This would be causing a collision and
not avoiding a collision - a violation of the RULES.

Yet this what the arrogant tugboat captains are saying the
Rules require me to do. WRONG! When a motor vessel
hears the fog signal of a sailboat or any other boat above
it in the pecking order it knows before even coming in sight
of that vessel that the motor vessel is the give way vessel
in a close quarters situation and a close quarters situation
in most cases of restricted visibility in an in sight situation.

This is what I call the abbreviated pecking order. That
there is an abbreviated pecking order proves there is a
give-way and stand-on vessel in restricted visibility.

If and when the motor vessel and sailing vessels come
within sight of one another the motor vessel already knows
it is the give-way vessel in all but the overtaking situation.
(we're not talking narrow channels, traffic schemes, etc,
here - we're talking at sea.) This means the
give-way/stand-on status exists in or near an area of
restricted visibility.


S.Simon - knows the practical application
as well as the letter of the Rules.



"Tim Roberts" wrote in message
...
Sorry Jeff,

It seems I also missed much of the earlier thread.

I was agreeing with the point that thick fog is not the only type of
restricted visibility.

Now that I have discovered a bit more about the original thread, I
should
perhaps add a couple of points;

First Point:

Rule 19 Very definitely applies to all vessels at sea by virtue of Rule
1
(Application)

'(a) These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in
all
waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels'


Second Point:

Did Neal really claim that you don't get wind in fog?
He perhaps needs to understand the process by which sea-fog is formed.
It
happens when warm, wet air comes into contact with a sea that is colder
than
it's own dew point. The only way sea fog disperses is 'normally' with a
change in wind direction which brings in dry air which is able to absorb
the
moisture in the fog. Continued wind from the same direction merely
feeds
more moisture, and thus, more fog! If the same wind direction continues
for
long enough - the fog gets thicker and thicker.

I have certainly been in situations where I have been sailing in thick
fog.
I find it safer than motoring because you can hear other vessels sound
signals much easier than with an engine on.

Sorry to bore everyone with this pedantry, but I lecture in both COLREGS
and
Meteorology amongst other things.





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Simon, you wrote:

If I determine there is a danger of collision I change course -
I'm certainly not going to take all sails down and come to
a stop and become a sitting duck


Are you saying that in restricted visibility, you would change course
regardless of whether you had a visual confirmation of the other vessels
position?




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Yet more comments interspersed ....


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
And, as usual, you're twisting the facts into a pretzel you
can munch with copious quantities of beer when you're
motoring along in your twin-diesel powered catamaran!

Comments interspersed.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Yes Charles, you missed the beginning of this discussion, which has gone on for about
a
year.

Neal has always maintained that Rule 19 doesn't apply to sailboats - they are not
required
to slow down in the fog. He's trying to weasel out it now by claiming that since
there
are some situations where you might apply "in sight" rules that could also qualify as
"restricted visibility" that sailboats are always standon.

I only maintained the part of Rule 19 that says all vessels must slow
down to a safe speed only applies to those vessels NOT already
going at a safe speed. You have steadfastly refused to recognize
the fact that slowing down to a safe speed applies only to those
vessels going at a fast and unsafe speed for the conditions. My
little sailboat going at hull speed of a little over six knots is going
at a safe speed therefore I am not required by the Rules to slow
down.

Once again you show your total ignorance of the rules! Rule 19 does not require boats to
slow to a safe speed, its Rule 6:

"Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she
can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped
within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and
conditions."

All vessels must always proceed at a safe speed - this is one of the basics. Rule 19 says
that sometimes you have to go even slower. Rule 19 specifically addresses restricted
visibilty, and says:

"(e) Except where it has been determined that a risk of collision does
not exist, every vessel which hears apparently forward of her beam the
fog signal of another vessel, or which cannot avoid a close-quarters situation
with another vessel forward of her beam, shall reduce her
speed to the minimum at which she can be kept on her course. She
shall if necessary take all her way off and in any event navigate with
extreme caution until danger of collision is over."

The central issue of this discussion has been your insistance that there is no situation
where a sailboat must slow down. Yet rule 19 unequivocally mandates that "ALL VESSELS ...
SHALL REDUCE SPEED TO A MINIMUM..." What can be clearer than that?

You've claimed that its impossible for a sailboat to slow down, but that only proves you
don't know how to sail. I suggest take a beginners sailing class if you don't understand
how to control your speed.


As for the in-sight situation it is common to have in-sight situations
in or near an area of restricted visibility so it follows that in-sight
Rules often apply in or near an area of restricted visibility so it
becomes apparent that stand-on/give-way does indeed exist in
or near an area of restricted visibility, hence a pecking order
exists in all its glorious ramifications.


I've often admitted that in light fog there can be situations where the "in sight" rules
take affect. However, in thick fog, two vessel making 7 knots each can be closing at 24
feet/second. In 50 foot visibilty, this does not leave enough time to even react. This
is why there can be no pecking order in thick fog - ALL VESSELS have an equal
responsibilty to REDUCE SPEED TO A MINIMUM!




Neal started by claiming sailboats should travel at full speed since it was unsafe for
them to slow down. He claimed there is never wind in fog, and that thick fog was a
myth
that didn't really exist. He claimed that sailboats don't have to slow down because
they
are inherently incapable to going at unsafe speeds, regardless of the conditions. Now
he's trying to construct a grey area scenario do prove his case.


I never said 'should' I said 'could'. There is a difference ya know. I said most
fogs don't have winds. Sail on an inland lake, sail in southern Florida, sail on
a river and you will find many situations where there is fog and little of no wind.


By claiming a vessel is "standon" you imply it must maintain course and speed. But even
so, claiming a sailboat "could" proceed a full speed in thick fog also blatantly wrong.


I did say small cruising sailboats like mine with hull speeds of six knots
or less are already going at a safe speed so they are not required by the
Rules to slow down to a safe speed. This is so obvious I'm surprised you
keep failing to get it.


For many situations, you may be correct. However, in thick fog, 6 knots is too fast, even
for a small boat. The rules are quite explicit. The courts have also been very specific
on this, holding vessels at fault because they did not anchor immediately.

BTW, just a month ago you claimed your hull speed was 7 knots. Did you suddenly slow
down?

As for a gray area. I'm doing nothing but giving concrete situations that
happen day in and day out and applying the Rules to them to come to
my valid conclusions that you happen to disagree with but have little
or nothing to support your opinions when I clearly do.


No, you've merely claimed rules that protect boats in thick fog don't make sense because
sometimes there isn't thick fog. This is nonsensical!

S.Simon - does not allow people to spin the facts in typical
liberal fashion.

Jeff Morris wrote:

Once again you show your total ignorance of the rules! Rule 19 does not
require boats to slow to a safe speed, its Rule 6:

On the contrary.

Rule 6 requires speeds to be safe at all times, there is no explicit
mention of reducing to a safe speed. Not even in 19b. Only in 19e.

Both 6 and 19b *imply* that a reduction might be mandated in some
circumstances, but only 19e makes *explicit* mention of reduction,
and then only in specific circumstances.

All vessels must always proceed at a safe speed - this is one of the
basics. Rule 19 says that sometimes you have to go even slower.

Even slower than safe speed? No, it only means that "safe" may at
times mean very slow.

The central issue of this discussion has been your insistance that there
is no situation where a sailboat must slow down.

In this he is of course mistaken.

Yet rule 19 unequivocally mandates that "ALL VESSELS ...
SHALL REDUCE SPEED TO A MINIMUM..." What can be clearer than that?

Careful, you're misquoting. It says "...to the minimum at which she can
be kept on her course", which means the vessel in question doesn't need
to go any slower than the speed at which steerage can be maintained,
unless (as required be the following sentence) it becomes necessary to
take all way off. But remember that the whole of 19e only applies to
vessels which have heard another vessel's fog signal from apparently
forward, or where an unavoidable close quarters situation already exists.

Comments interspersed:

Simple Simon wrote:
Extremely thick fog is mostly a myth. Yes, it occurs on
occassion but the general run of the mill fog is not so thick
that vessels can collide without ever seeing one another.

Wrong and immaterial to the discussion. The discussion is how vessels
react and there responsibility when they can see each other, and when
they can not see each other.

At any rate, the worst case scenario of pea soup thick fog
is but one case of restricted visibility and the majority of
the other cases definitely allow in-sight situations in or
near an area of restricted visibility. In sight situations
are ruled by the in sight rules which specify give-way and
stand-on status for vessels in sight of one another.

Jeff, Otnmbrd, Shen44 and Rick have up till now maintained
there is NEVER a stand-on vessel in or near an area of
restricted visibility while I have maintained there IS a stand-on
and give-way vessel in or near an area of restricted visibility.

Absolutely wrong. What you seem unable to comprehend is that when
vessels can not see each other due to some form of restricted
visibility, that there is no stand-on/priveleged status ..... both
vessels must navigate with extreme caution.
IF .... while in fog or some other form of restricted visibility, the
two vessels should come in sight of each other (yes, they may well still
be in restricted visibility) then, and only then, do give-way, stand-on
conditions apply, unless, of course, they are so close, that BOTH
vessels must maneuver to avoid collision.
The very simple governing phrases you seem unable to comprehend and
apply to the terms "fog" and "restricted visibility", are "in sight of"
and "not in sight of".

I'm right and they're wrong - that's the bottom line.

nope

I maintain that my sailboat even in a thick fog is going at
a safe speed by virtue of the fact that the hull speed is less
than seven knots max. Many fogs have little or no wind so
I may well be going even slower. Even if the winds are brisk
in a fog and I'm going hull speed I'm still going at a safe speed.
In effect, I'm standing on and I'm doing it completely legally.

Wrong again. Safe speed must be adapted to the prevailing circumstances.
If you are doing seven knots and can barely see your bow or just beyond,
you will never maneuver in time if something should appear. Sorry, rules
for speed apply to sail also.

If I hear the fog signal of a motor vessel I know right away
if and when we come in sight of each other I am the stand-on
vessel and the motor vessel is the give way vessel unless I'm
overtaking the motor vessel
or we are so close that both vessel's must maneuver to avoid collision.
(I'll ignore TSS or narrow channels)
What do you do if you are hearing the fog signal of what turns out to be
a 6000 hp Z-drive tug pushing a 150' deck barge (i.e. a vessel blowing
the same signal you are)

which is not likely at all considering
they all think safe speed is 10-15 knots instead of the usual
20-30 knots - let's face the facts here for once.

immaterial

Therefore,
I keep going at my safe speed of five or six knots and try
to determine by the sound signal if there's a danger of collision.
If I determine there is a danger of collision I change course -

Potentially unsafe practices (Notice, it's perfectly OK for Neal to keep
sailing at 5-6 k, but not a motor vessel)

I'm certainly not going to take all sails down and come to
a stop and become a sitting duck to be run over and sunk
by a ship not keeping an adequate lookout and going too
fast for the conditions. This would be causing a collision and
not avoiding a collision - a violation of the RULES.

Garbage and shows limited sailing skills.. Rules tell you to take all
way off if necessary.

Yet this what the arrogant tugboat captains are saying the
Rules require me to do. WRONG! When a motor vessel
hears the fog signal of a sailboat or any other boat above
it in the pecking order it knows before even coming in sight
of that vessel that the motor vessel is the give way vessel
in a close quarters situation and a close quarters situation
in most cases of restricted visibility in an in sight situation.

More garbage. There is no pecking order of any kind, in fog, when two
vessels cannot see each other, no matter what the different signals may
be. There is, also, no way for a motor vessel to tell if it is dealing
with a sailboat, by whistle signals alone.
Here again we can see Neals problem grasping the terms "in sight" and
"not in sight" and relating (or separating them, if you will) with the
terms "fog" and/or "restricted visibility".

This is what I call the abbreviated pecking order. That
there is an abbreviated pecking order proves there is a
give-way and stand-on vessel in restricted visibility.

Again, the problem relating to terminology .... and ....no pecking
order.... and again you've proved nothing.

If and when the motor vessel and sailing vessels come
within sight of one another the motor vessel already knows
it is the give-way vessel in all but the overtaking situation.
(we're not talking narrow channels, traffic schemes, etc,
here - we're talking at sea.) This means the
give-way/stand-on status exists in or near an area of
restricted visibility.

.........ONLY if the vessels can see each other (you're still ignoring
rule 17(b) and how it would affect stand-on status).
So, how's the license renewal coming, Neal? Sure hope they don't make
you take a "Rules" test (open book or otherwise)BG

otn

Simple Simon wrote:

At any rate, the worst case scenario of pea soup thick fog
is but one case of restricted visibility and the majority of
the other cases definitely allow in-sight situations in or
near an area of restricted visibility. In sight situations
are ruled by the in sight rules which specify give-way and
stand-on status for vessels in sight of one another.

Jeff, Otnmbrd, Shen44 and Rick have up till now maintained
there is NEVER a stand-on vessel in or near an area of
restricted visibility while I have maintained there IS a stand-on
and give-way vessel in or near an area of restricted visibility.

I'm right and they're wrong - that's the bottom line.

Correct, if you replace IS with CAN BE. The in sight rules don't
just suddenly become invalid just because visibility becomes
restricted. The definitions are clear: "in sight" and "restricted
visibility" are not 100% mutually exclusive. That's why the "in
sight" rules apply not when visibility is not restricted, but
when one vessel can be observed visually from the other.

I maintain that my sailboat even in a thick fog is going at
a safe speed by virtue of the fact that the hull speed is less
than seven knots max.

That's crap. There is no way you can seriously claim that
7 knots is a safe speed in thick fog. You should surrender your
master's licence immediately and take up golf.

Many fogs have little or no wind so
I may well be going even slower. Even if the winds are brisk
in a fog and I'm going hull speed I'm still going at a safe speed.

Wrong.

In effect, I'm standing on and I'm doing it completely legally.

Even wronger. In thick fog you would not be under in-sight rules
and so could not possibly be legally standing-on.

If I hear the fog signal of a motor vessel I know right away
if and when we come in sight of each other I am the stand-on
vessel and the motor vessel is the give way vessel.

Nice try, and I admit there is some logic in this approach, but
it is nevertheless a flagrant violation of 19b, 19c, and 19e,
the point being that sound signals do not allow either you or
the motor boat to determine what your likely relative positions
are going to be once your range closes sufficiently for you
to be able to see each other. The whole point of 19 is that
it recognises that there might not be enough time for whichever
vessel would become the give-way vessel, once the in-sight rules
kick in, to take effective action to avoid collision.

"Tim Roberts" wrote in message ...


Simon, you wrote:

If I determine there is a danger of collision I change course -
I'm certainly not going to take all sails down and come to
a stop and become a sitting duck


Are you saying that in restricted visibility, you would change course
regardless of whether you had a visual confirmation of the other vessels
position?


Yes I would. The Rules require me to.

S.Simon

Sea fog and land fog are two different animals.


"Calif Bill" wrote in message nk.net...
I guess in pieman land you get light fog only. Here in North Calif you get
friggin fog so thick you can not see the front of the car from the drivers
seat!
Bill

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Extremely thick fog is mostly a myth. Yes, it occurs on
occassion but the general run of the mill fog is not so thick
that vessels can collide without ever seeing one another.

At any rate, the worst case scenario of pea soup thick fog
is but one case of restricted visibility and the majority of
the other cases definitely allow in-sight situations in or
near an area of restricted visibility. In sight situations
are ruled by the in sight rules which specify give-way and
stand-on status for vessels in sight of one another.

Jeff, Otnmbrd, Shen44 and Rick have up till now maintained
there is NEVER a stand-on vessel in or near an area of
restricted visibility while I have maintained there IS a stand-on
and give-way vessel in or near an area of restricted visibility.

I'm right and they're wrong - that's the bottom line.

I maintain that my sailboat even in a thick fog is going at
a safe speed by virtue of the fact that the hull speed is less
than seven knots max. Many fogs have little or no wind so
I may well be going even slower. Even if the winds are brisk
in a fog and I'm going hull speed I'm still going at a safe speed.
In effect, I'm standing on and I'm doing it completely legally.

If I hear the fog signal of a motor vessel I know right away
if and when we come in sight of each other I am the stand-on
vessel and the motor vessel is the give way vessel unless I'm
overtaking the motor vessel which is not likely at all considering
they all think safe speed is 10-15 knots instead of the usual
20-30 knots - let's face the facts here for once. Therefore,
I keep going at my safe speed of five or six knots and try
to determine by the sound signal if there's a danger of collision.
If I determine there is a danger of collision I change course -
I'm certainly not going to take all sails down and come to
a stop and become a sitting duck to be run over and sunk
by a ship not keeping an adequate lookout and going too
fast for the conditions. This would be causing a collision and
not avoiding a collision - a violation of the RULES.

Yet this what the arrogant tugboat captains are saying the
Rules require me to do. WRONG! When a motor vessel
hears the fog signal of a sailboat or any other boat above
it in the pecking order it knows before even coming in sight
of that vessel that the motor vessel is the give way vessel
in a close quarters situation and a close quarters situation
in most cases of restricted visibility in an in sight situation.

This is what I call the abbreviated pecking order. That
there is an abbreviated pecking order proves there is a
give-way and stand-on vessel in restricted visibility.

If and when the motor vessel and sailing vessels come
within sight of one another the motor vessel already knows
it is the give-way vessel in all but the overtaking situation.
(we're not talking narrow channels, traffic schemes, etc,
here - we're talking at sea.) This means the
give-way/stand-on status exists in or near an area of
restricted visibility.


S.Simon - knows the practical application
as well as the letter of the Rules.



"Tim Roberts" wrote in message
...
Sorry Jeff,

It seems I also missed much of the earlier thread.

I was agreeing with the point that thick fog is not the only type of
restricted visibility.

Now that I have discovered a bit more about the original thread, I
should
perhaps add a couple of points;

First Point:

Rule 19 Very definitely applies to all vessels at sea by virtue of Rule
1
(Application)

'(a) These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in
all
waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels'


Second Point:

Did Neal really claim that you don't get wind in fog?
He perhaps needs to understand the process by which sea-fog is formed.
It
happens when warm, wet air comes into contact with a sea that is colder
than
it's own dew point. The only way sea fog disperses is 'normally' with a
change in wind direction which brings in dry air which is able to absorb
the
moisture in the fog. Continued wind from the same direction merely
feeds
more moisture, and thus, more fog! If the same wind direction continues
for
long enough - the fog gets thicker and thicker.

I have certainly been in situations where I have been sailing in thick
fog.
I find it safer than motoring because you can hear other vessels sound
signals much easier than with an engine on.

Sorry to bore everyone with this pedantry, but I lecture in both COLREGS
and
Meteorology amongst other things.





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Sorry Simon,

You are totally wrong.

If you hear a sound signal in fog but have not clearly identified the other
vessel visually, how the hell do you know where they are?

Sound in fog is like sound in water - it's very difficult to tell which
direction it's coming from. If you alter course without knowing where the
other vessel is, you could increase the risk of collision.

The ONLY sensible and safe course of action is to slow down, post as many
lookouts as you can (difficult if your single handing) and be ready to move
quickly once you get a visual. With luck, the sound signal will get quieter
as the other vessel passes away from you - but in my experience (and i've
sailed a lot in fog in the North Sea and English Channel) this is not
likely.

I hope I never have to sail anywhere with you when there is a risk of fog.
You're a downright danger to yourself and to other shipping.





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Yes they are both different, but they are equally hazardous to shipping and
should be treated accordingly.

I suppose you are implying that there is no wind when you are dealing with
land fog?

What do you think causes the land fog to move out to sea?
The Wind.

Drainage winds and katabatic winds can both move off land out to sea and
carry fog with them.




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