"Everett" wrote in message
from the COLREGS http://www.oz.net/~papillon/kbmanual/colregs.html

"Rule 4
Application

"Rules in this section apply to any condition of visibility."

That seems to say it all. Thanks SS

Everett


What does it say? Do you have a point?

Neal's point has been (though he doesn't state it explicitly in this thread) that a
sailboat is "standon" in the thickest fog and is not required to reduce speed. He has
claimed repeatedly that rule 19 does not apply to sailboats because they are incapable of
ever traveling at an unsafe speed.

Is this point of Simon's that you're agreeing with?



"Tim Roberts" wrote in message ...
At the risk of being a pedant, the COLREGS themselves state the following;

Rule 3
General Definitions
(l) The term "restricted visibility" means any conditions in which
visibility is restricted by fog, mist, falling snow, heavy rainstorms,
sandstorms or any other similar causes.

That aside, from my own experience at sea I'd have to agree with the point
Simon is trying to make.




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Simple Simon wrote:

So, to set things straight with respect to the ongoing
and lame and just plain incorrect arguments presented
by Jeff Morris, Shenn44, Otnmbrd, and Rick, here's
four facts that cannot be disputed.

??? Why drag me into your fantasy world, Nil?

All I ever did was call you a nautical wannabe. The last thing in the
world I would ever do is argue about the COLREGS with the Cliff Claven
of a.s.a.

Shenn and Otnmbrd are unlimited masters with a career at sea actually
operating ships so I do believe they are a bit more qualified to
interpret the COLREGS than, what is it you claim to hold, a 6 pack MOTOR
ticket or something?

The only thing I can see in your post that cannot be disputed is this
determined adherence to your nautical fantasy life and your peculiar
need to shop it around so many newsgroups.

Rick

Sorry Jeff,

It seems I also missed much of the earlier thread.

I was agreeing with the point that thick fog is not the only type of
restricted visibility.

Now that I have discovered a bit more about the original thread, I should
perhaps add a couple of points;

First Point:

Rule 19 Very definitely applies to all vessels at sea by virtue of Rule 1
(Application)

'(a) These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all
waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels'


Second Point:

Did Neal really claim that you don't get wind in fog?
He perhaps needs to understand the process by which sea-fog is formed. It
happens when warm, wet air comes into contact with a sea that is colder than
it's own dew point. The only way sea fog disperses is 'normally' with a
change in wind direction which brings in dry air which is able to absorb the
moisture in the fog. Continued wind from the same direction merely feeds
more moisture, and thus, more fog! If the same wind direction continues for
long enough - the fog gets thicker and thicker.

I have certainly been in situations where I have been sailing in thick fog.
I find it safer than motoring because you can hear other vessels sound
signals much easier than with an engine on.

Sorry to bore everyone with this pedantry, but I lecture in both COLREGS and
Meteorology amongst other things.





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Hey John,
Near my home port, aircraft carriers are the thing to avoid. Of course,
one "tries" to miss the errant PWC too. G

Capt. Frank

John Cairns wrote:

"Everett" wrote in message
...

"Charles T. Low"
snip I'm left not

knowing for sure if your four conclusions are opinions, "guessed" from

the

Rules, or whether the Rules actually say what you're saying.

So, I would appreciate it if you would flesh it out a bit more.

snip

"Simple Simon"

snip

I say there is a pecking order in restricted
visibility.


Lsnip

My argument has been and is that stand-on and give-way
vessels exist in or near restricted visibility and I have proven
it below in a step-by-step, logical fashion.


snip

from the COLREGS http://www.oz.net/~papillon/kbmanual/colregs.html

"Rule 4
Application

"Rules in this section apply to any condition of visibility."

That seems to say it all. Thanks SS

Everett


And the next you're out sailing and it looks like you might be involved in a
collision with a freighter you can wave your copy of the COLREGS at them and
yell "STAND ASIDE"

John Cairns-religiously avoids collisions with 800' lake freighters

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 03:51:21 GMT, something compelled "Capt.
Frank Hopkins" , to say:

Hey John,
Near my home port, aircraft carriers are the thing to avoid.

Standing orders on USS Prairie, AD 15 read in part:*

Aircraft carriers are unpredictable and change course at will,
with little to no regard to the rest of the fleet. Whenever
steaming with an aircraft carrier, a vigilant watch will be kept
upon it, and the ship will be maneuvered out of the way as
prudent.





*As much as I remember.

Any similarity between the IMO's interpretation of the "Rules" and those of the
Simpleton Neal, are purely luck or imaginary, on Neal's part.
The only reason to read Neal's interpretations, is to learn how NOT to
interpret the rules.

Shen

"Tim Roberts" wrote in message
...
Sorry Jeff,

It seems I also missed much of the earlier thread.

I was agreeing with the point that thick fog is not the only type of
restricted visibility.

Now that I have discovered a bit more about the original thread, I should
perhaps add a couple of points;

First Point:

Rule 19 Very definitely applies to all vessels at sea by virtue of Rule 1
(Application)

'(a) These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all
waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels'


Second Point:

Did Neal really claim that you don't get wind in fog?
He perhaps needs to understand the process by which sea-fog is formed. It
happens when warm, wet air comes into contact with a sea that is colder
than
it's own dew point. The only way sea fog disperses is 'normally' with a
change in wind direction which brings in dry air which is able to absorb
the
moisture in the fog. Continued wind from the same direction merely feeds
more moisture, and thus, more fog! If the same wind direction continues
for
long enough - the fog gets thicker and thicker.

I have certainly been in situations where I have been sailing in thick
fog.
I find it safer than motoring because you can hear other vessels sound
signals much easier than with an engine on.

Sorry to bore everyone with this pedantry, but I lecture in both COLREGS
and
Meteorology amongst other things.





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No wind and fog? He has never seen the fog come in the Golden Gate! Or
over the Marin Headlands. Seems as if the CG feels that the big, dang
freighter coming in the the Gate, had priority over everything but the Blue
Angels, etc, this last Sunday. Everytime a large ship came in the gate, the
CG informed all the boats to get out of it's way because of the Col Regs as
it was restricted to channel. Also they informed the ship of the safety box
on the San Franciso waterfront during the Fleet Week airshow. They just
adjusted speed, to arrive during the breaks.
Bill

It was a great day on the bay!

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
news
No wind and fog? He has never seen the fog come in the Golden Gate! Or
over the Marin Headlands. Seems as if the CG feels that the big, dang
freighter coming in the the Gate, had priority over everything but the
Blue
Angels, etc, this last Sunday. Everytime a large ship came in the gate,
the
CG informed all the boats to get out of it's way because of the Col Regs
as
it was restricted to channel. Also they informed the ship of the safety
box
on the San Franciso waterfront during the Fleet Week airshow. They just
adjusted speed, to arrive during the breaks.
Bill

Everett wrote:

from the COLREGS http://www.oz.net/~papillon/kbmanual/colregs.html

"Rule 4
Application

"Rules in this section apply to any condition of visibility."

That seems to say it all.

To say what, exactly?

The pecking order (rule 18), stand-on (rule 17), and give-way (rule
16) stuff is not in section I of part B, to which rule 4 refers, but
in section II of part B, which is introduced by rule 11:

"Rules in this section apply to vessels in sight of one another."

So the pecking order *only* applies when in sight.

Section III which is rule 19 applies only to vessels not in
sight of one another, when in restricted visibility. This means
that, even where visibility is restricted (for any reason), as
soon as ships come close enough to see each other, section III
goes out the window and section II kicks in, restoring pecking
order *which does not exist in section III*. But this revived
pecking order may be academic if by then vessels are already
in a close quarters situation.