On Saturday my depth guage started acting up, just as I was entering Still
Pond anchorage (the entrance is narrow, between 2 sand spits) , however, I
looked around, saw NO wading birds and proceeded to blast full speed ahead .

SV


"Simple Simon" wrote

ANY water shallow enough to ground my boat will be evident
without a depth sounder. If nothing else all I have to do is watch
for wading birds.

S.Simon

Or in the SF bay... mostly mud, some rocks, and a few crapola
hunters sitting on the bottom.

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Once again, you demonstrate very limited experience.

There are many locations where its not possible to avoid hazards just by
looking at the
water. This may be possible in the Keys or Bahamas (up to a point) but
not in New England
or the Chesapeake.

Most of the hard groundings I've witnessed could have been avoided if more
attention had
be paid to the depth sounder. For example, Boston Harbor has only one
non-obvious hazard
near the main channel, Lower Middle. You can't get close to it without
going through 100
yards of shallow water, yet someone whacks it every week. The Irwin 30 I
sailed for a
season hit it the next year at 6.5 knots in a GPS assisted incident. The
rudder was
broken and the engine was knocked off its mounts.

Neal, if you want to call yourself a "real sailor" you'll have to come up
to New England
to complete your education.



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
You're point is not valid for sailors. Only professional motor
boaters carry on in such a stupid fashion. Only sloppy captains
like Shen44 and Otnmbrd allow such a slovenly-run ship.

Any cruising sailor worth his salt can look into and at the water
and tell immediately if he is in shoal water by the color, wave
action, shape, etc. Depth sounders are simply not a vital instrument
of navigation. I'd be willing to bet more boats go aground while
the operator is looking at the instrument than when using visual
clues of sea state, color of water, etc.

S.Simon




"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Tell that to the crew of the Royal Majesty. They traveled most of the
way from
Bermuda to
Nantucket unaware that their GPS was not working. In the several
hours before they
grounded a glance at the depth sounder would have shown that they were
dangerously off
course.

Frankly I was appalled by this incident, since I have never relied
souly on GPS, but
always verify position with soundings or bearings.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1997/mar9701.pdf


--
-jeff
"Constant Vigilance!" - Frances W. Wright


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
And, good morning to you, sir!

With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Good Morning Simple,

Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth
finders
to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
accepted practest in DED piloting.

We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about
5mph
wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
probabilly
spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into
play. Nice
and dry and warm.

OT

You're joking of course. You're telling me that you rely
on GPS as the only aid to navigation? There are many
charts that are not accurate and haven't been so for years
with no updates available.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
Were did you dig up this crap Jon??? Learn how to enter correct datum and
save yourself further embarrassment.

It's a good thing both you and Neal sail in protected waters with line of
sight navigation or there would be a lot less boats around.

CM

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
| You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
| only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
| actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
| don't match long/lat info.
|
| "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| ...
| And, good morning to you, sir!
|
| With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
| position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
| depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.
|
| S.Simon
|
|
| "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| ...
| Good Morning Simple,
|
| Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth
finders
| to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
| accepted practest in DED piloting.
|
| We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about
5mph
| wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
probabilly
| spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into play.
Nice
| and dry and warm.
|
| OT
|
|
|
|
|

In your case, you're not capable of using a road map,
due to being majorly stupid, so don't worry about it.

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 11:43:47 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:

You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
don't match long/lat info.

I guess I shouldn't use a road map because sometimes they are
inaccurate, and often have the wrong names, dumbass.


Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.

And all this time I believed you actually went sailing on occasion. Booby was right - you
never have left your mooring. Anyone with half a brain would understand that its
virtually impossible to move a boat across the surface of the water without leaving a
wake. And at any speed over, say, half of hull speed it would be quite noticeable.

-jeff, whose catamaran hulls have a 12:1 L/B ratio, and so leave a very small wake, indeed


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
.

Bullcrap .... at best, works only sometimes .... what does your wake tell you?


Snipped all Shen's drivel that does not apply to small sailing yachts
because it becomes very tedious to keep trying to explain to a person
unfamiliar with sailing over and over and over again.

However, I can't resist replying to the above because cabin boy
Shen thinks he can trap me with his stupid wake question.

Well, Boy Shen, I happen to know motor vessels squat when the
water becomes very shallow. Looking at a motorboat wake can tell
you if you're fixin' to run aground. However, this has nothing to do
with sailboats that are unaffected by this sort of squatting in shallow
water because they don't make a wake because of the hull design.

Duh!

S.Simon

As an aid to navigation... Yes.. I use a GPS..... along with the other
tools... chrono, compass, log, charts, sounder, radar.


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
| You're joking of course. You're telling me that you rely
| on GPS as the only aid to navigation? There are many
| charts that are not accurate and haven't been so for years
| with no updates available.
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
| Were did you dig up this crap Jon??? Learn how to enter correct datum
and
| save yourself further embarrassment.
|
| It's a good thing both you and Neal sail in protected waters with line
of
| sight navigation or there would be a lot less boats around.
|
| CM
|
| "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
| ...
| | You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
| | only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
| | actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
| | don't match long/lat info.
| |
| | "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| | ...
| | And, good morning to you, sir!
| |
| | With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
| | position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
| | depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.
| |
| | S.Simon
| |
| |
| | "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| | ...
| | Good Morning Simple,
| |
| | Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth
| finders
| | to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
| | accepted practest in DED piloting.
| |
| | We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about
| 5mph
| | wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
| probabilly
| | spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into
play.
| Nice
| | and dry and warm.
| |
| | OT
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

Yah, like you really need all those things in a little bay you can see across
and have never sailed anyplace else.

S.Simon


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ...
As an aid to navigation... Yes.. I use a GPS..... along with the other
tools... chrono, compass, log, charts, sounder, radar.


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
| You're joking of course. You're telling me that you rely
| on GPS as the only aid to navigation? There are many
| charts that are not accurate and haven't been so for years
| with no updates available.
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
| Were did you dig up this crap Jon??? Learn how to enter correct datum
and
| save yourself further embarrassment.
|
| It's a good thing both you and Neal sail in protected waters with line
of
| sight navigation or there would be a lot less boats around.
|
| CM
|
| "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
| ...
| | You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
| | only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
| | actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
| | don't match long/lat info.
| |
| | "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| | ...
| | And, good morning to you, sir!
| |
| | With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
| | position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
| | depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.
| |
| | S.Simon
| |
| |
| | "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| | ...
| | Good Morning Simple,
| |
| | Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth
| finders
| | to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
| | accepted practest in DED piloting.
| |
| | We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about
| 5mph
| | wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
| probabilly
| | spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into
play.
| Nice
| | and dry and warm.
| |
| | OT
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

First off it's difficult to believe that any stretches of the ICW are poorly
charted. I'm not a big proponent of GPS accuracy... I do concur with Jon's
assertion that it's a tool... it has it's limits and should never be relied
on as sole source for navigation. That being said... I've seen supposedly
competent sailors use default datum or operate in 3D fix modes. What I don't
agree with is ...

A]- "You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart"
That position would have you question your radar, sonar, chronograph and
compasses.. never mind the plotting tools!

B]- "It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to actual
obstructions"

It does indeed confirm a fix if you have a chart..... so does radar.

C]- "Charts are notoriously inaccurate and don't match long/lat info

P-l-l-u-u-u-u-e-e-e-e-z-z-z-z-e-e-e...... they certainly are Not!.
Especially if
you can read one, verify fixes and have the latest datum.

CM






"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
| Jon has a point. There are certain locations that are notoriously poorly
charted,
| datum-wise. The ChartKit I have for the Bahamas is way off. I also
found that for long
| stretches of the ICW, my charted position was on dry land.
|
| For most of where I sail, however, the GPS and the chart agree to a boat
length or better.
|
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
| Were did you dig up this crap Jon??? Learn how to enter correct datum
and
| save yourself further embarrassment.
|
| It's a good thing both you and Neal sail in protected waters with line
of
| sight navigation or there would be a lot less boats around.
|
| CM
|
| "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
| ...
| | You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
| | only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
| | actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
| | don't match long/lat info.
| |
| | "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| | ...
| | And, good morning to you, sir!
| |
| | With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
| | position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
| | depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.
| |
| | S.Simon
| |
| |
| | "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| | ...
| | Good Morning Simple,
| |
| | Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth
finders
| | to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
| | accepted practest in DED piloting.
| |
| | We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about
5mph
| | wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
| probabilly
| | spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into
play.
| Nice
| | and dry and warm.
| |
| | OT
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

Good point.
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Good memory but that statement does not mean I don't simply
turn the thing off when off-soundings. What's the use of having a
depth sounder on when all it shows is no bottom?

S.Simon


"The Carrolls" wrote in message
...
Hay, you said " I don't ;ike to see readings on my depth sounder for
extended periods of time,..." I guess you also deserve to be attacked.
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Anybody running a depth sounder in water deep enough for large
whales deserves to be attacked.

S.Simon


"Sidney Greenstreet" wrote in message
ink.net...
Sydney: Marine electronics technician A.E. Patterson has discovered
that
the
depth finder used aboard a sailboat that was attacked by a whale was
faulty
and may have provoked the whale into attacking the craft.
Marine biologist Ian McDonald said the sounds from the defective
transducer
mimicked those of a territorial whale. Patterson added the
transducer
may
have given faulty depth readings as well. Yacht skipper Geoff
Whitlam
said
he noticed no malfunction of the unit at all and remarked that at
the
time
of the attack the head was clogged and being unplugged. Tommy
Woodcock,
aboard and unclogging the head at the time of attack added that the
sound of
the pumping unit was quite strange as it was filled with toilet
paper
and a
unusually large grogen. "The grogen had fermented for about a day
in
the
escape chute" Woodcock asserted. "Perhaps the aquatic mammal
recognized
the
yacht as a whale giving birth to a mutated offspring and acted
accordingly".
"Needless to say, it'll be a while before I patronize Rachel
Carson's
tuck
shop, I couldn't stomach strolling about with a trolley load of
Aussie
pies
and vegemide".

Whew. You had me worried...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
As an aid to navigation... Yes.. I use a GPS..... along with the other
tools... chrono, compass, log, charts, sounder, radar.


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
| You're joking of course. You're telling me that you rely
| on GPS as the only aid to navigation? There are many
| charts that are not accurate and haven't been so for years
| with no updates available.
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
| Were did you dig up this crap Jon??? Learn how to enter correct datum
and
| save yourself further embarrassment.
|
| It's a good thing both you and Neal sail in protected waters with line
of
| sight navigation or there would be a lot less boats around.
|
| CM
|
| "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
| ...
| | You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
| | only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
| | actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
| | don't match long/lat info.
| |
| | "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| | ...
| | And, good morning to you, sir!
| |
| | With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
| | position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
| | depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.
| |
| | S.Simon
| |
| |
| | "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| | ...
| | Good Morning Simple,
| |
| | Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth
| finders
| | to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is
an
| | accepted practest in DED piloting.
| |
| | We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about
| 5mph
| | wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
| probabilly
| | spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into
play.
| Nice
| | and dry and warm.
| |
| | OT
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|