Once again, you demonstrate very limited experience.

There are many locations where its not possible to avoid hazards just by looking at the
water. This may be possible in the Keys or Bahamas (up to a point) but not in New England
or the Chesapeake.

Most of the hard groundings I've witnessed could have been avoided if more attention had
be paid to the depth sounder. For example, Boston Harbor has only one non-obvious hazard
near the main channel, Lower Middle. You can't get close to it without going through 100
yards of shallow water, yet someone whacks it every week. The Irwin 30 I sailed for a
season hit it the next year at 6.5 knots in a GPS assisted incident. The rudder was
broken and the engine was knocked off its mounts.

Neal, if you want to call yourself a "real sailor" you'll have to come up to New England
to complete your education.



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
You're point is not valid for sailors. Only professional motor
boaters carry on in such a stupid fashion. Only sloppy captains
like Shen44 and Otnmbrd allow such a slovenly-run ship.

Any cruising sailor worth his salt can look into and at the water
and tell immediately if he is in shoal water by the color, wave
action, shape, etc. Depth sounders are simply not a vital instrument
of navigation. I'd be willing to bet more boats go aground while
the operator is looking at the instrument than when using visual
clues of sea state, color of water, etc.

S.Simon




"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Tell that to the crew of the Royal Majesty. They traveled most of the way from
Bermuda to
Nantucket unaware that their GPS was not working. In the several hours before they
grounded a glance at the depth sounder would have shown that they were dangerously off
course.

Frankly I was appalled by this incident, since I have never relied souly on GPS, but
always verify position with soundings or bearings.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1997/mar9701.pdf


--
-jeff
"Constant Vigilance!" - Frances W. Wright


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
And, good morning to you, sir!

With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Good Morning Simple,

Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth finders
to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
accepted practest in DED piloting.

We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about 5mph
wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll probabilly
spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into play. Nice
and dry and warm.

OT

This ain't big ship....

http://www.interphase-tech.com/probe.htm

or this.....

http://www.interphase-tech.com/seascout.htm

CM


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
|
| I repeat, WE'RE NOT TALKING BIG SHIP CRAP HERE!
|
| Depth sounders give a depth for sure and generally they are
| pretty accurate. However, what good is a depth when a
| vessel could be any number of miles along a contour or on
| a flat? Answer - no good at all. What matters is lat/lon with
| high degrees of accuracy. Knowing your depth is very vague
| information at best when attempting to place a fix on a chart.
|
| Small sailing yachts can rely on GPS so they do not need depth
| sounders as much as big ships. When a small sailing yacht is
| getting into dangerously shallow water the eyes of an experienced
| will look at the wave action, color of the water etc. and be able
| to ascertain the depth to a high degree of accuracy.
|
| Now, get out of here and go back to rec.boats where you belong.
|
| S.Simon
|
| "Shen44" wrote in message
...
| Subject: Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
| From: "Simple Simon"
| Date: 10/07/2003 08:10 Pacific Standard Time
| Message-id:
|
| Bull****. A chart shows contours, bottom make up such as
| rock, sand, shell etc., possible upcoming obstructions and
| the like. This info is simply not available on a yacht depth
| sounder.
|
| S.Simon - not talking about big ship crap here . . .
|
| Not talking about "big ship crap" .... talking about Navigation.
| A chart is nothing more than a "picture" of an area that you may be in
..... by
| itself, it's useless, until you can start applying other information,
gleaned
| from other sources to locate yourself in a position on that chart.
| A fathometer, be it a recording, digital readout, or blinking light will
help
| give you information to locate that position (personally, prefer the
| recording).
| Prior to the advent of all the electronic nav aids, such as LORAN, GPS,
| fathometers were much more frequently used to check, and even locate,
ones
| position on a chart, be it in shallow or deep water.
| It's just another tool you have available .... shame you don't
understand it's
| use .... but expected .....
|
| Shen
|
|

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
| Any cruising sailor worth his salt can look into and at the water
| and tell immediately if he is in shoal water by the color, wave
| action, shape, etc.

This type of ridiculous comment can only be attributed to a tropical
backwater daysailor with severely limited experience and absolutely no clue
as to sea states North or South of the tropics.



Depth sounders are simply not a vital instrument
| of navigation. I'd be willing to bet more boats go aground while
| the operator is looking at the instrument than when using visual
| clues of sea state, color of water, etc.

I never ran aground while operating without a sounder because I carried a
lead line and exercised extreme caution knowing the my limitations and those
of my vessel. Unknown harbour ... verify chart soundings, enter dead slow,
split the entries 50/50 or favour the steep topography by 60/40. Once you've
been in... you can sail back in under full press in a gale and really wow
the rubber neckers moored inside.

CM

I was born in Somerville, Mass. I lived there until I was ten years
old - old enough to realize I never want to go back there again.

ANY water shallow enough to ground my boat will be evident
without a depth sounder. If nothing else all I have to do is watch
for wading birds.

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
Once again, you demonstrate very limited experience.

There are many locations where its not possible to avoid hazards just by looking at the
water. This may be possible in the Keys or Bahamas (up to a point) but not in New England
or the Chesapeake.

Most of the hard groundings I've witnessed could have been avoided if more attention had
be paid to the depth sounder. For example, Boston Harbor has only one non-obvious hazard
near the main channel, Lower Middle. You can't get close to it without going through 100
yards of shallow water, yet someone whacks it every week. The Irwin 30 I sailed for a
season hit it the next year at 6.5 knots in a GPS assisted incident. The rudder was
broken and the engine was knocked off its mounts.

Neal, if you want to call yourself a "real sailor" you'll have to come up to New England
to complete your education.



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
You're point is not valid for sailors. Only professional motor
boaters carry on in such a stupid fashion. Only sloppy captains
like Shen44 and Otnmbrd allow such a slovenly-run ship.

Any cruising sailor worth his salt can look into and at the water
and tell immediately if he is in shoal water by the color, wave
action, shape, etc. Depth sounders are simply not a vital instrument
of navigation. I'd be willing to bet more boats go aground while
the operator is looking at the instrument than when using visual
clues of sea state, color of water, etc.

S.Simon




"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Tell that to the crew of the Royal Majesty. They traveled most of the way from
Bermuda to
Nantucket unaware that their GPS was not working. In the several hours before they
grounded a glance at the depth sounder would have shown that they were dangerously off
course.

Frankly I was appalled by this incident, since I have never relied souly on GPS, but
always verify position with soundings or bearings.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1997/mar9701.pdf


--
-jeff
"Constant Vigilance!" - Frances W. Wright


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
And, good morning to you, sir!

With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Good Morning Simple,

Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth finders
to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
accepted practest in DED piloting.

We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about 5mph
wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll probabilly
spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into play. Nice
and dry and warm.

OT

Were did you dig up this crap Jon??? Learn how to enter correct datum and
save yourself further embarrassment.

It's a good thing both you and Neal sail in protected waters with line of
sight navigation or there would be a lot less boats around.

CM

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
| You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
| only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
| actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
| don't match long/lat info.
|
| "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| ...
| And, good morning to you, sir!
|
| With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
| position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
| depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.
|
| S.Simon
|
|
| "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| ...
| Good Morning Simple,
|
| Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth finders
| to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
| accepted practest in DED piloting.
|
| We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about 5mph
| wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
probabilly
| spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into play.
Nice
| and dry and warm.
|
| OT
|
|
|
|
|

Idiots! All there are around here are idiots.

WE'RE NOT TALKING FORWARD LOOKING SONAR HERE.

Stop trying to change the subject. We're talking about how
depth sounders are useless in very deep water and a lot of
the time in shallow water.

S.Simon


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ...
This ain't big ship....

http://www.interphase-tech.com/probe.htm

or this.....

http://www.interphase-tech.com/seascout.htm

CM


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
|
| I repeat, WE'RE NOT TALKING BIG SHIP CRAP HERE!
|
| Depth sounders give a depth for sure and generally they are
| pretty accurate. However, what good is a depth when a
| vessel could be any number of miles along a contour or on
| a flat? Answer - no good at all. What matters is lat/lon with
| high degrees of accuracy. Knowing your depth is very vague
| information at best when attempting to place a fix on a chart.
|
| Small sailing yachts can rely on GPS so they do not need depth
| sounders as much as big ships. When a small sailing yacht is
| getting into dangerously shallow water the eyes of an experienced
| will look at the wave action, color of the water etc. and be able
| to ascertain the depth to a high degree of accuracy.
|
| Now, get out of here and go back to rec.boats where you belong.
|
| S.Simon
|
| "Shen44" wrote in message
...
| Subject: Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
| From: "Simple Simon"
| Date: 10/07/2003 08:10 Pacific Standard Time
| Message-id:
|
| Bull****. A chart shows contours, bottom make up such as
| rock, sand, shell etc., possible upcoming obstructions and
| the like. This info is simply not available on a yacht depth
| sounder.
|
| S.Simon - not talking about big ship crap here . . .
|
| Not talking about "big ship crap" .... talking about Navigation.
| A chart is nothing more than a "picture" of an area that you may be in
.... by
| itself, it's useless, until you can start applying other information,
gleaned
| from other sources to locate yourself in a position on that chart.
| A fathometer, be it a recording, digital readout, or blinking light will
help
| give you information to locate that position (personally, prefer the
| recording).
| Prior to the advent of all the electronic nav aids, such as LORAN, GPS,
| fathometers were much more frequently used to check, and even locate,
ones
| position on a chart, be it in shallow or deep water.
| It's just another tool you have available .... shame you don't
understand it's
| use .... but expected .....
|
| Shen
|
|

Sorry... didn't mean to step on your last raw nerve.....
Bwahahahahahahahahaaaa

You're the one claimed depth sounders won't give you contours.

I proved you wrong... deal with it.

CM


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
| Idiots! All there are around here are idiots.
|
| WE'RE NOT TALKING FORWARD LOOKING SONAR HERE.
|
| Stop trying to change the subject. We're talking about how
| depth sounders are useless in very deep water and a lot of
| the time in shallow water.
|
| S.Simon
|
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
| This ain't big ship....
|
| http://www.interphase-tech.com/probe.htm
|
| or this.....
|
| http://www.interphase-tech.com/seascout.htm
|
| CM
|
|
| "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| ...
| |
| | I repeat, WE'RE NOT TALKING BIG SHIP CRAP HERE!
| |
| | Depth sounders give a depth for sure and generally they are
| | pretty accurate. However, what good is a depth when a
| | vessel could be any number of miles along a contour or on
| | a flat? Answer - no good at all. What matters is lat/lon with
| | high degrees of accuracy. Knowing your depth is very vague
| | information at best when attempting to place a fix on a chart.
| |
| | Small sailing yachts can rely on GPS so they do not need depth
| | sounders as much as big ships. When a small sailing yacht is
| | getting into dangerously shallow water the eyes of an experienced
| | will look at the wave action, color of the water etc. and be able
| | to ascertain the depth to a high degree of accuracy.
| |
| | Now, get out of here and go back to rec.boats where you belong.
| |
| | S.Simon
| |
| | "Shen44" wrote in message
| ...
| | Subject: Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
| | From: "Simple Simon"
| | Date: 10/07/2003 08:10 Pacific Standard Time
| | Message-id:
| |
| | Bull****. A chart shows contours, bottom make up such as
| | rock, sand, shell etc., possible upcoming obstructions and
| | the like. This info is simply not available on a yacht depth
| | sounder.
| |
| | S.Simon - not talking about big ship crap here . . .
| |
| | Not talking about "big ship crap" .... talking about Navigation.
| | A chart is nothing more than a "picture" of an area that you may be
in
| .... by
| | itself, it's useless, until you can start applying other
information,
| gleaned
| | from other sources to locate yourself in a position on that chart.
| | A fathometer, be it a recording, digital readout, or blinking light
will
| help
| | give you information to locate that position (personally, prefer the
| | recording).
| | Prior to the advent of all the electronic nav aids, such as LORAN,
GPS,
| | fathometers were much more frequently used to check, and even
locate,
| ones
| | position on a chart, be it in shallow or deep water.
| | It's just another tool you have available .... shame you don't
| understand it's
| | use .... but expected .....
| |
| | Shen
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

Wow! Neal grew up in Slummerville! That explains a lot.

Somerville is the ultimate working class 'burb. In Neal's day it was one of the most
densely populated cities in the country. It was 98% Catholic and covered entirely by
tightly packed three-deckers. Its become a bit gentrified of late, as it became an
inexpensive alternative to Cambridge.

I lived for many years on the Cambridge side of the line, and still visit often.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
I was born in Somerville, Mass. I lived there until I was ten years
old - old enough to realize I never want to go back there again.

ANY water shallow enough to ground my boat will be evident
without a depth sounder. If nothing else all I have to do is watch
for wading birds.

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Once again, you demonstrate very limited experience.

There are many locations where its not possible to avoid hazards just by looking at
the
water. This may be possible in the Keys or Bahamas (up to a point) but not in New
England
or the Chesapeake.

Most of the hard groundings I've witnessed could have been avoided if more attention
had
be paid to the depth sounder. For example, Boston Harbor has only one non-obvious
hazard
near the main channel, Lower Middle. You can't get close to it without going through
100
yards of shallow water, yet someone whacks it every week. The Irwin 30 I sailed for a
season hit it the next year at 6.5 knots in a GPS assisted incident. The rudder was
broken and the engine was knocked off its mounts.

Neal, if you want to call yourself a "real sailor" you'll have to come up to New
England
to complete your education.



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
You're point is not valid for sailors. Only professional motor
boaters carry on in such a stupid fashion. Only sloppy captains
like Shen44 and Otnmbrd allow such a slovenly-run ship.

Any cruising sailor worth his salt can look into and at the water
and tell immediately if he is in shoal water by the color, wave
action, shape, etc. Depth sounders are simply not a vital instrument
of navigation. I'd be willing to bet more boats go aground while
the operator is looking at the instrument than when using visual
clues of sea state, color of water, etc.

S.Simon




"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Tell that to the crew of the Royal Majesty. They traveled most of the way from
Bermuda to
Nantucket unaware that their GPS was not working. In the several hours before
they
grounded a glance at the depth sounder would have shown that they were dangerously
off
course.

Frankly I was appalled by this incident, since I have never relied souly on GPS,
but
always verify position with soundings or bearings.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1997/mar9701.pdf


--
-jeff
"Constant Vigilance!" - Frances W. Wright


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
And, good morning to you, sir!

With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Good Morning Simple,

Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth finders
to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
accepted practest in DED piloting.

We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about 5mph
wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll probabilly
spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into play. Nice
and dry and warm.

OT

Hey stupid, forward looking sonar and depth sounders are two
different categories of instruments.

You're becomming more stupid than some of the regular idiots
around here and that's saying a lot . . .

S.Simon


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ...
Sorry... didn't mean to step on your last raw nerve.....
Bwahahahahahahahahaaaa

You're the one claimed depth sounders won't give you contours.

I proved you wrong... deal with it.

CM


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
| Idiots! All there are around here are idiots.
|
| WE'RE NOT TALKING FORWARD LOOKING SONAR HERE.
|
| Stop trying to change the subject. We're talking about how
| depth sounders are useless in very deep water and a lot of
| the time in shallow water.
|
| S.Simon
|
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
| This ain't big ship....
|
| http://www.interphase-tech.com/probe.htm
|
| or this.....
|
| http://www.interphase-tech.com/seascout.htm
|
| CM
|
|
| "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| ...
| |
| | I repeat, WE'RE NOT TALKING BIG SHIP CRAP HERE!
| |
| | Depth sounders give a depth for sure and generally they are
| | pretty accurate. However, what good is a depth when a
| | vessel could be any number of miles along a contour or on
| | a flat? Answer - no good at all. What matters is lat/lon with
| | high degrees of accuracy. Knowing your depth is very vague
| | information at best when attempting to place a fix on a chart.
| |
| | Small sailing yachts can rely on GPS so they do not need depth
| | sounders as much as big ships. When a small sailing yacht is
| | getting into dangerously shallow water the eyes of an experienced
| | will look at the wave action, color of the water etc. and be able
| | to ascertain the depth to a high degree of accuracy.
| |
| | Now, get out of here and go back to rec.boats where you belong.
| |
| | S.Simon
| |
| | "Shen44" wrote in message
| ...
| | Subject: Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
| | From: "Simple Simon"
| | Date: 10/07/2003 08:10 Pacific Standard Time
| | Message-id:
| |
| | Bull****. A chart shows contours, bottom make up such as
| | rock, sand, shell etc., possible upcoming obstructions and
| | the like. This info is simply not available on a yacht depth
| | sounder.
| |
| | S.Simon - not talking about big ship crap here . . .
| |
| | Not talking about "big ship crap" .... talking about Navigation.
| | A chart is nothing more than a "picture" of an area that you may be
in
| .... by
| | itself, it's useless, until you can start applying other
information,
| gleaned
| | from other sources to locate yourself in a position on that chart.
| | A fathometer, be it a recording, digital readout, or blinking light
will
| help
| | give you information to locate that position (personally, prefer the
| | recording).
| | Prior to the advent of all the electronic nav aids, such as LORAN,
GPS,
| | fathometers were much more frequently used to check, and even
locate,
| ones
| | position on a chart, be it in shallow or deep water.
| | It's just another tool you have available .... shame you don't
| understand it's
| | use .... but expected .....
| |
| | Shen
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

Jon has a point. There are certain locations that are notoriously poorly charted,
datum-wise. The ChartKit I have for the Bahamas is way off. I also found that for long
stretches of the ICW, my charted position was on dry land.

For most of where I sail, however, the GPS and the chart agree to a boat length or better.


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
Were did you dig up this crap Jon??? Learn how to enter correct datum and
save yourself further embarrassment.

It's a good thing both you and Neal sail in protected waters with line of
sight navigation or there would be a lot less boats around.

CM

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
| You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
| only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
| actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
| don't match long/lat info.
|
| "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| ...
| And, good morning to you, sir!
|
| With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
| position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
| depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.
|
| S.Simon
|
|
| "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| ...
| Good Morning Simple,
|
| Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth finders
| to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
| accepted practest in DED piloting.
|
| We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about 5mph
| wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
probabilly
| spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into play.
Nice
| and dry and warm.
|
| OT
|
|
|
|
|