"~^ beancounter ~^" wrote:
yep, for folks with cash in hand...there are now, and will be grat
deals
avail...at least thst's what i am discovering...i started a boat corp
and we ( 5 members ) *are shopping right now for a used ericson
38-200...

shoppin' and browsing the net, i see some great deals out there...i
bid on a 1976 ericson 35 in tx w/rub rail damage...not major....and
missed
by aprox $8,500 getting it...i bid a max of $2,500 and it sold for
$10k
or so...

not the boat i/we wanted.....but a heck of a deal...."cash in hand"
talks
in a recession, that's for sure......

cheers everyone......

Frankly, I don't see 99% of boats on the market right now as a
"bargain" unless you have very limited sailing plans.

First of all, most boats are mass-produced dockominiums that don't
sail all that well and are not designed or equipped for serious
sailing or cruising. They're nice for drinking beer at the dock, so if
that's what you wanna do, then you can get a good deal.

2nd, most boats on the 2nd-hand market are badly neglected. Very few
are reasonably equipped for anything other than mild weather (see #1
above) and all will need skilled work plus at least a few BOAT unit$
for repair, maintenance, upgrades etc. Many have been neglected to the
point of needing major work.

When I was boat-shopping this past spring, it was a buyer's market
although not as much so as now; and of the boat within the size & type
range I was looking at, I didn't see a single one I considered a
bargain. Most I would not have accepted if offered to me for free.

But then, I'm kinda picky. YMMV

Ericsons are pretty good boats, but even at serious discount you will
probably sink more $$ into it than you'll ever get out, and that's not
putting a dollar value on your time & work. Remember, when good times
come again, it will most likely still be a buyer's market and the boat
will be older yet. So, pick a boat you really really like and will
find rewarding to own & sail. Then it will be worth the work & effort
you put into it.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

wrote in message
...
"~^ beancounter ~^" wrote:
yep, for folks with cash in hand...there are now, and will be grat
deals
avail...at least thst's what i am discovering...i started a boat corp
and we ( 5 members ) are shopping right now for a used ericson
38-200...

shoppin' and browsing the net, i see some great deals out there...i
bid on a 1976 ericson 35 in tx w/rub rail damage...not major....and
missed
by aprox $8,500 getting it...i bid a max of $2,500 and it sold for
$10k
or so...

not the boat i/we wanted.....but a heck of a deal...."cash in hand"
talks
in a recession, that's for sure......

cheers everyone......

Frankly, I don't see 99% of boats on the market right now as a
"bargain" unless you have very limited sailing plans.

But Doug, mass produced boats are not marketed for the slim 1%



First of all, most boats are mass-produced dockominiums that don't
sail all that well and are not designed or equipped for serious
sailing or cruising. They're nice for drinking beer at the dock, so if
that's what you wanna do, then you can get a good deal.


That's what sailing and for the most part, the American way of life has
become. Look at Robbie - tricked out flimsy racer for daysails, a turbo
coupe for grocery runs. Image sells but doesn't make up for lack of
character


2nd, most boats on the 2nd-hand market are badly neglected. Very few
are reasonably equipped for anything other than mild weather (see #1
above) and all will need skilled work plus at least a few BOAT unit$
for repair, maintenance, upgrades etc. Many have been neglected to the
point of needing major work.

Most boats? What is your sample size for this conclusion?


When I was boat-shopping this past spring, it was a buyer's market
although not as much so as now; and of the boat within the size & type
range I was looking at, I didn't see a single one I considered a
bargain. Most I would not have accepted if offered to me for free.

This begs the question: are you realistic?


But then, I'm kinda picky. YMMV

Ericsons are pretty good boats, but even at serious discount you will
probably sink more $$ into it than you'll ever get out, and that's not
putting a dollar value on your time & work. Remember, when good times
come again, it will most likely still be a buyer's market and the boat
will be older yet. So, pick a boat you really really like and will
find rewarding to own & sail. Then it will be worth the work & effort
you put into it.

I think that is what most people do. The problem is you don't like 99%
of boats and other people may like 20% or 50% of boats

If people wait until the end of next summer then they'll see the
bargains

Since the Democratic controlled Congress and the future administration
will be and are saddling our children with massive debt, I doubt boats will
be in the game plan for many in decades to come. There will be no rebound
for boats. Yachts will become what they once were - toys for the very, very
wealthy.



Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Frankly, I don't see 99% of boats on the market right now as a
"bargain" unless you have very limited sailing plans.


"Charles Momsen" wrote:
But Doug, mass produced boats are not marketed for the slim 1%


Maybe not, but they bring a lot of needless frustration & difficulty
to the 99%

For example, look at the large number of 'production boats' that have
winches in unworkable locations. Can the boat be sailed in anything
but a drifter without using the winches? No.

Another example... mooring cleats. Undersized, not fastened or bedded
or backed properly. Guaranteed heaache to use, a safety issue, a
maintenance issue... the builders & sellers assume that the buyers are
idiots.

I could go on & on & on....

Why are 99% of boats on the market designed & built to be sold to
idiots? It's not that the buyers *are* idiots, it's that most want a
boat really badly and there's nothing else to choose from.





2nd, most boats on the 2nd-hand market are badly neglected.


Most boats? What is your sample size for this conclusion?


At least a couple of hundred. I go to a lot of different marinas &
sailing clubs and have a habit of taking a look around at each... heck
there are at least 60 boats for sale in the 5 marinas and 2 sailing
clubs that I go to regularly (right in our area). It doesn't take a
genius so see frayed lines, corroded fittings, etc etc on almost all
the ones with 'for sale' signs... heck it's nothing special, close to
50% of all the boats I see are prety badly neglected. Probably at
least 50% of the boats in these places have been sailed less than 10
times in the past 5 years.





..... So, pick a boat you really really like and will
find rewarding to own & sail. Then it will be worth the work & effort
you put into it.

I think that is what most people do. The problem is you don't like 99%
of boats and other people may like 20% or 50% of boats


Prob'ly right.

Like I said, I'm picky! Either that or I'm spoiled, having owned a
series of boats & dogs that were far above the average.


Since the Democratic controlled Congress and the future administration
will be and are saddling our children with massive debt, I doubt boats will
be in the game plan for many in decades to come. There will be no rebound
for boats. Yachts will become what they once were - toys for the very, very
wealthy.


And you can be sure it's all the Democrats fault.... not a single
Republican has any share of the blame!

Isn't democracy just awful, the way you brilliant & perfect people
have to suffer the voting mistakes of the average folk? It's a shame
that President Bush & Vice President Cheney didn't just outlaw the
Democratic Party back when they had full control. Think what the
country would be like if they'd put all those libby-rulls in re-
education camps!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

wrote in message
...
Frankly, I don't see 99% of boats on the market right now as a
"bargain" unless you have very limited sailing plans.


"Charles Momsen" wrote:
But Doug, mass produced boats are not marketed for the slim 1%


Maybe not, but they bring a lot of needless frustration & difficulty
to the 99%

Maybe not so. Maybe those people just don't care.



For example, look at the large number of 'production boats' that have
winches in unworkable locations. Can the boat be sailed in anything
but a drifter without using the winches? No.

Another example... mooring cleats. Undersized, not fastened or bedded
or backed properly. Guaranteed heaache to use, a safety issue, a
maintenance issue... the builders & sellers assume that the buyers are
idiots.

I could go on & on & on....

It's costly to build a good boat and most people can't afford them. If one
wants to sell boats to the masses it appears corners must be cut.


Why are 99% of boats on the market designed & built to be sold to
idiots? It's not that the buyers *are* idiots, it's that most want a
boat really badly and there's nothing else to choose from.

They can try to buy a good boat, but it might be out of their means.

Name 5 great blue water cruisers 30 feet or more for less than 100K new.
Less than 150K. Less than 200K. Less than 250K.

Off all the boats sold, what percentage is over 100K?






2nd, most boats on the 2nd-hand market are badly neglected.


Most boats? What is your sample size for this conclusion?


At least a couple of hundred. I go to a lot of different marinas &
sailing clubs and have a habit of taking a look around at each... heck
there are at least 60 boats for sale in the 5 marinas and 2 sailing
clubs that I go to regularly (right in our area). It doesn't take a
genius so see frayed lines, corroded fittings, etc etc on almost all
the ones with 'for sale' signs... heck it's nothing special, close to
50% of all the boats I see are prety badly neglected. Probably at
least 50% of the boats in these places have been sailed less than 10
times in the past 5 years.

Doug, all fittings corrode and lines do fray. If it's for sale the owner may
not want to sink money and effort into new lines or removing corrosion. The
bright side (no pun intended) is that half of the boats are low mileage. I
don't think a sample of 200-300 boats is enough to make conclusions for all
boats. But it is true that most of the boats for sale you have seen are
badly neglected. Can you say the same for boats you have seen that are not
for sale? For the most part I think people sell their boats because they
have lost interest in them.






..... So, pick a boat you really really like and will
find rewarding to own & sail. Then it will be worth the work & effort
you put into it.

I think that is what most people do. The problem is you don't like
99%
of boats and other people may like 20% or 50% of boats


Prob'ly right.

Like I said, I'm picky! Either that or I'm spoiled, having owned a
series of boats & dogs that were far above the average.

Would you say that Hunter you had was far above average? Was it that way
from the factory or did you make it above average?



Since the Democratic controlled Congress and the future
administration
will be and are saddling our children with massive debt, I doubt boats
will
be in the game plan for many in decades to come. There will be no rebound
for boats. Yachts will become what they once were - toys for the very,
very
wealthy.


And you can be sure it's all the Democrats fault.... not a single
Republican has any share of the blame!

Blame them too if you like. I'm simply holding the Democrats to their word.
They were going to get us out of Iraq. Remember pay-go? Bush's failed
policies? I do.


Isn't democracy just awful, the way you brilliant & perfect people
have to suffer the voting mistakes of the average folk?

It's not as bad as the marketplace where you brilliant and perfectly
knowledgeable sailors have to suffer the consequences of mass marketed boats
for idiots.


It's a shame
that President Bush & Vice President Cheney didn't just outlaw the
Democratic Party back when they had full control. Think what the
country would be like if they'd put all those libby-rulls in re-
education camps!

FYI: I'm not a Republican and it's more fun to wind the liberals up. BTW, do
you still think the Fed is doing a great job?



Fresh Breezes- Doug King