In message .com
"ChipsCheeseandMayo" wrote:

I am a level 2 kayak coach since two years ago. I gained this
qualifcation working for a large activity holiday provider. While I
worked there we used a 3 coach to 24kid ratio and one of the coaches
was a level 3. This was good as although it was still strictly within
the one to eight you always had backup if you needed it.

Now its a 1 to eight ratio which is fine onsite. Kids fall in swim to
the side and empty their own boats. If they are freezing they go off
and get showered. (No wetsuits)

Its offsite thats the issue. I get dropped off with eight (older)
clients at the lochside. The minibus then leaves. We pile the kids
change of clothes (if they have actually managed to bring what was
asked) under a Kisu and leave them on the bank. No changing facilities
or showers. (I do have a mobile but reception is very dodgy)

So I'm there on my own with eight clients and no bank support. This is
a pretty huge loch. I explain to the clients that it is important they
stay close to the bank and to me. At first they do then they get more
confident and we end up spread over say 20 m 50m from the shore, (Why
is there always one client who just cant paddle. Another reason two
coaches is good one can help the slower ones). And probably a few
hundred m from the get in. So if someone falls in I really am on my
own. This is the scary bit.

Do your risk assessments mention wind direction and strength? A wind off the
nearest shore of a large loch is a similar risk to offshore wind at sea -
don't do it with novices.

I am a fairly experienced level 3 coach, who's done a lot of these sessions
with kids - and I wouldn't be happy in that situation.

What do you when one kid decides he/she's too scared to go paddling - you
can't leave them on the shore on their own, you can't abandon the session
because your transport has gone. You'll probably end up having to play beach
games with no advance planning and unhappy kids. I've been in that situation
with 12-year-olds and had to exert quite a lot of pressure to get them on
the water. At the very least I'd want one of the group's own adults to be
present. You shouldn't rely on mobile phones for safety - too much can go
wrong, starting with water, low batteries...

You might want to look at the "terms of reference" for a level 2 coach. I
can't find it on the BCU web site, but I think for an "inland kayak level 2"
coach it refers to "sheltered inland water". A loch doesn't qualify as
"sheltered". You would probably need a sea coach to be properly covered.
This means that your employer is being unfair to you, both in asking you to
coach like that, and in effectively threatening you when you are unhappy. It
all sounds too much like the situation at Lyme Bay.

If you haven't read that up in detail, you should. The issues were

Coaches who weren't qualified for the conditions (coastal water)
Coaches has expressed their concern to management, who didn't want to know
A group got scattered in an increasing offshore wind and several died

Fortunately for the coaches, they had expressed their concerns in writing,
which was what enabled them to avoid prosecution. The centre manager ended
up in jail.

I may be reading too much into your description. I hope so.

--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

Do your risk assessments mention wind direction and strength? A wind off the
nearest shore of a large loch is a similar risk to offshore wind at sea -
don't do it with novices.

Never mind off-shore winds, any wind coming down a glen can create a
considerable swell. We paddled (my family) down from Strathyre onto
the head of Loch Lubnaig. As we entered the loch, what was, onshore, a
mild breeze became a considerable wind, and the swell created at the
head of the loch was siderable, within about 50 metres it was such
that our boats were disappearing from view in the troughs. We turned
west and beached. Our return trip was somewhat more rapid than our
outbopund trip!

Had we been with novices there would certainly have been capsizes.



I am a fairly experienced level 3 coach, who's done a lot of these sessions
with kids - and I wouldn't be happy in that situation.

snip

You might want to look at the "terms of reference" for a level 2 coach. I
can't find it on the BCU web site, but I think for an "inland kayak level 2"
coach it refers to "sheltered inland water". A loch doesn't qualify as
"sheltered". You would probably need a sea coach to be properly covered.
This means that your employer is being unfair to you, both in asking you to
coach like that, and in effectively threatening you when you are unhappy. It
all sounds too much like the situation at Lyme Bay.

To be fair there could be sheltered areas of a loch that would be
acceptable. Most L2 Coaches forget that they are only supposed to
travel not more than 750m from base. Kind of screws up any realistic
trips. Even on canals where the paddler will never be any more than a
couple of boat lengths from the bank!

snip

I may be reading too much into your description. I hope so.

I had similar concerns.

Ewan Scott

Alan Adams wrote:

If you haven't read that up in detail, you should. The issues were

Coaches who weren't qualified for the conditions (coastal water)
Coaches has expressed their concern to management, who didn't want to
know
A group got scattered in an increasing offshore wind and several died

Fortunately for the coaches, they had expressed their concerns in
writing,
which was what enabled them to avoid prosecution. The centre manager
ended
up in jail.

And following the Lyme Bay incident, the Adventure Activities Licensing
Authority (AALA) was set up. Your centre is, I believe, legally bound
to be licensed by them. On their website (http://www.aala.org) they
have plenty of guidelines and advice. This document in particular
http://www.aala.org/pdf/02_06_10_GPinES_Version_Two.pdf
has information relevant to your situation.
If you think your employer is operating dangerously outside the
guidelines then they are the right people to deal with it.

Wow - lots of answers overnight and lots of questions

Ewan - thats a great tip about getting them to raft up as they got on -
I will definetly give it a try. I still have a concern about rafting up
- it can be pretty windy in in a raft they could get a long way
downwind during the duration of a rescue. At least if they are milling
around they can paddle to stay in the general area. But then I suppose
if a couple more capsize then I am screwed. So yes, I will try getting
them to raft up in case of capsize. I guess maybe pick out a couple of
more able novices to be my "deputies"

I did the training, the hours and passed the assessment. The training
was internal, the hours were internal and the asessment was
semi-internal. I felt qualified for what I was doing at that centre
i.e. teaching on ponds or on a loch but with 2 other back up
instructors. I had never coached on my own prior to my current
centre. I guess I question my qualification because well lets just say
- my SPA training with same employer was signed off after one day (its
meant to be 2 days min)..

I can do eskimo rescues no prob - unfortunately that is not in option
for me. They are paddling boats with no decks so they just fall out.
Perceptive comment though - paddling wherever I have done it I am
usually the only girlie. The only method I have ever seen of emptying
boats is of bloke effortlessly dragging boat over their own and
emptying - sometimes they would even empty it held over their heads
This is the method I was taught and the method I thought was right. I
was vaguely aware that you may occasionally get the victim to assist -
it never really struck me as being an OK thing to do - I always saw it
as a failure and an inadequacy on the instructors part - boy have you
guys changed my mind!

There is a sheltered(ish) area to this Loch but we tend not use it as
it tends to be older kids we take to the loch and they get really bored
in this small bay - we like to paddle them up the Loch a bit so they
feel they are really kayaking - which makes it hard to stop and play
games because I really dont want them to fall in (three hour session)

Peter, I may not have painted my current employer in a particularly
nice light but generally they are fine. Im a lot more impressed with
their ethos and safety procedures than at my previous centre.

I remember Lyme bay, and I know its the reason AALA was set up. In
really serious conditions I would turn around and say no. The problem
is (and this is probably naive) I have a certain loyalty toward my
employer. As well as safety I feel I have to consider the fact that
disappointed clients is bad. Hell, jsut writing that I realised how
stupid its sounds. The problem is, everyone else does it without a
murmur whereas I would be so much more comfortable with a second coach.
I don't believe I am operating outside the BCU guidelines, however I
have this weird theory that off-site sessions should have minimum 2
instructors in case something major happens (which it can)., As Peter
said above - he got concussed by a kid waving a paddle (even wearing a
helmet) Its that sort of extreme situation which really worries me.

The problem is we dont have enough boats or trailer space to take a
group of 16 hence they cant justify another instructor. You guys are
really helping me out though. I have never seen a coaching viewpoint
other than at my previous centre. Maybe I need to go on a coaching
processes course to open my eyes a bit...

On 4 Feb 2005 04:00:38 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

Wow - lots of answers overnight and lots of questions

Ewan - thats a great tip about getting them to raft up as they got on -
I will definetly give it a try. I still have a concern about rafting up
- it can be pretty windy in in a raft they could get a long way
downwind during the duration of a rescue. At least if they are milling
around they can paddle to stay in the general area. But then I suppose
if a couple more capsize then I am screwed. So yes, I will try getting
them to raft up in case of capsize. I guess maybe pick out a couple of
more able novices to be my "deputies"

If they don't raft up they will mill about. I'd suggest you try it in
a controlled set of circumstances where your safety boats do not get
involved but just monitor the situation. Whilst you struggle to carry
out a rescue you'r eye is off the ball. By the time you have finished
I'll warrant your milling about is all over the shop.

If you raft them up, yes they will drift, but they will be together,
and you will drift at almost the same rate as them.

I did the training, the hours and passed the assessment. The training
was internal, the hours were internal and the asessment was
semi-internal. I felt qualified for what I was doing at that centre
i.e. teaching on ponds or on a loch but with 2 other back up
instructors. I had never coached on my own prior to my current
centre. I guess I question my qualification because well lets just say
- my SPA training with same employer was signed off after one day (its
meant to be 2 days min)..

I'd guess that your centre is at fault. If anything goes pear-shaped
you are in deep ****. You are on the water, you are in charge. If you
are unhappy about the situation you are putting your own life and that
of others at risk. That is not right. You have a duty of care. Taking
8 kids out on your own with no failsafe is really risky. I usually
work with my wife and we can take 16, but we usually only take 12. if
anything goes wrong one of us is able to go for help. if I were on my
own I'd be screwed.

Ask yourself this, if I lose someone (God forbid) what will the
coronor say when I tell him I was on my own with no back up? How will
the Procurator Fiscal view the situation? And how will the High Court
view your case when the parents/partner of the victim sue for damages
- an njury has happened, there has been a failing on the centre's
part, probably on yours, and there may well be a link between the two.
In which case you are completely stuck.

I know that's a worst case scenario, but if you are earning a living
from this, or even if you just enjoy it, that is what you have to have
at the back of your mind. I'm sure that you are an able paddler and
probably a capable teacher but that doesn't mean you should allow your
centre to force you to cut corners. (I'll not comment on the SPA
signing off)

I can do eskimo rescues no prob - unfortunately that is not in option
for me. They are paddling boats with no decks so they just fall out.
Perceptive comment though - paddling wherever I have done it I am
usually the only girlie. The only method I have ever seen of emptying
boats is of bloke effortlessly dragging boat over their own and
emptying - sometimes they would even empty it held over their heads

Macho pratts. If they were actually any good as coaches they would
teach the best practice. Showing off is about the worst practice in my
book.

This is the method I was taught and the method I thought was right. I
was vaguely aware that you may occasionally get the victim to assist -
it never really struck me as being an OK thing to do - I always saw it
as a failure and an inadequacy on the instructors part - boy have you
guys changed my mind!

Glad we have helped with that at least. For an assessment you can
instruct your victim in how to help. In real life situations getting
them back in the boat is a success, anything else is a failure, how
you do it doesn't matter. Your measure of success is how short a time
they spend in the water.

There is a sheltered(ish) area to this Loch but we tend not use it as
it tends to be older kids we take to the loch and they get really bored
in this small bay - we like to paddle them up the Loch a bit so they
feel they are really kayaking - which makes it hard to stop and play
games because I really dont want them to fall in (three hour session)

Right, if they get bored it suggests an attitude problem. here's how I
sort it out.

We get in, they raft up as we get in, (if they are beginners). Then we
tell them they are going to paddle to a given point. We buddy them up
and herd them to the area we intend using. One of us whips in the
stragglers. the other stays with the main group.

When we get there, if there is any crap about it being boring we make
them capsize. In fact, with beginners we make them capsize first, if
they can do it we stick a spray deck on and make them do it again.
Then they paddle with a deck on.

We play games such as Sharks and Minnows (Bulldog on the water), they
love it. Lots of contact, lots of splashing and they get a real grasp
of the feel of the boat. (Mind you, you do need a second able paddler
as a safety boat.


Peter, I may not have painted my current employer in a particularly
nice light but generally they are fine. Im a lot more impressed with
their ethos and safety procedures than at my previous centre.

snip

The problem is we dont have enough boats or trailer space to take a
group of 16 hence they cant justify another instructor.

Believe me they will wish they had justified another instructor if
something goes wrong.

You guys are
really helping me out though. I have never seen a coaching viewpoint
other than at my previous centre. Maybe I need to go on a coaching
processes course to open my eyes a bit...

You need to work with other coaches. You need to work with different
abilities.

Listen; I've got kids we coach that we have known for years. We think
that they uinderstand us and get on with us. If i bring in another
instructor they ALWAYS learn something new from them that they haven't
from me. The thing is I learn too - sometimes it is how not to deal
with a situation too.

Ewan Scott

"If they don't raft up they will mill about. I'd suggest you try it in
a controlled set of circumstances where your safety boats do not get
involved but just monitor the situation"

What safety boats .... its just me

On 4 Feb 2005 10:05:00 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

"If they don't raft up they will mill about. I'd suggest you try it in
a controlled set of circumstances where your safety boats do not get
involved but just monitor the situation"

What safety boats .... its just me


Read what I said. Find a way of trying it out, find someone to be your
safety boat. Ask around the local clubs, arrange for a coupl of
experienced paddlers to help you out as a favour - they can just
happen to be there.

Ewan Scott

In message .com
"ChipsCheeseandMayo" wrote:

Wow - lots of answers overnight and lots of questions

Ewan - thats a great tip about getting them to raft up as they got on -
I will definetly give it a try. I still have a concern about rafting up
- it can be pretty windy in in a raft they could get a long way
downwind during the duration of a rescue. At least if they are milling
around they can paddle to stay in the general area. But then I suppose
if a couple more capsize then I am screwed. So yes, I will try getting
them to raft up in case of capsize. I guess maybe pick out a couple of
more able novices to be my "deputies"

If you're operating in this sort of wind, you need to ensure it is onshore.
Anything else, as you've found, leads to problems. A raft will drift a LOT
faster than a rescue, because for most of the time a rescue is tethered in
place by the drag of the swimmer. A raft has a lot less resistance. Sending
them to shore is possibly a better option - not doing that was highlighted
as part of the cause of the Lyme Bay incident - they rafted instead, and
drifted out to sea.

Incidentally, in windy condiions you do start your trips upwind, don't you?
The river section I've done a lot of tasters on, forces the start to be
downstream and usually downwind. 10 minutes paddling out, 40 minutes
paddling back sometimes.

I did the training, the hours and passed the assessment. The training
was internal, the hours were internal and the asessment was
semi-internal.

That's close to being unapproved - you should never be assessed and trained
by the same people, and it is better for your breadth of knowledge to do
training and assessment with different organisations. You should be learning
during both events.

I felt qualified for what I was doing at that centre
i.e. teaching on ponds or on a loch but with 2 other back up
instructors. I had never coached on my own prior to my current
centre. I guess I question my qualification because well lets just say
- my SPA training with same employer was signed off after one day (its
meant to be 2 days min)..


snip


The problem is we dont have enough boats or trailer space to take a
group of 16 hence they cant justify another instructor.

With a three hour session (now that's long) you should have time for a
double journey. If you're further from base than that, then you're really in
trouble, on your own without transport.

You guys are
really helping me out though. I have never seen a coaching viewpoint
other than at my previous centre. Maybe I need to go on a coaching
processes course to open my eyes a bit...


That sounds like a good idea. (I haven't done one yet, so I'm not sure what
it contains). I would also suggest level 3 coach training. Taking training
before you expect to be ready for assessment can be very good, as you come
out with an action plan which helps you fix up your weaker areas, and gives
you lots to think about. BUT don't do it internally - you need to see other
viewpoints, and get to talk things through with other coaches and
candidates. As you've seen from this group, other views can help. Without
that you get in a rut of thinking what you've "always done" must be OK.

Hmm... Three hour session... Too long for just "taster" activities, and yes
they will get bored if you stick to that. Long enough for those more able to
really develop away from the others. You really need to be teaching, rather
than introducing, to keep their interest. Getting the better paddlers to
help is going to be a good strategy, as it keeps them occupied and
interested, and will also help the others. Just avoid allowing them to show
off too much as it can be off-putting to those who find it difficult.


--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
I have this weird theory that off-site sessions should have minimum 2
instructors in case something major happens (which it can)., As
Peter said above - he got concussed by a kid waving a paddle (even
wearing a helmet) Its that sort of extreme situation which really
worries me.

I would agree with you. I would only be prepared to work in these
situations if I knew I could rely on the members of the group I was
instructing, or if the area being used for paddling was totally safe
(for example, if someone capsized they could stand up) and other help
was reasonably close at hand.

If you have to work in these situations, I would explain your concerns
to the kids before you start and then tell them what you would like then
to do.

In terms of rescues, have you considered asking the swimmer to use a
T-rescue where the kayak is pushed sideways up the front of your kayak.

Bill

Just got the latest Canoe and Kayak UK through the door. Interesting
article on deep water rescues. Seems to be re-iterating all the stuff I
was taught - why don't they publish some of the other methods you guys
have been teaching me? It seems that skills taught seem to be very
ingrained and people don't like to teach new (better?) ways of doing
things.

My favourite part in the article and I quote, " Sometimes people are
not physically strong enough to get back into their boat. If this does
happen you need to deal with the scenario".

Why thanks , that was really helpful - how exactly should I deal with
that scenario - growl...