"Jayno55" wrote in message
lkaboutboats.com...
Hmmm. Interesting suggestion. Are you guys buying ready made-up Cirrus
kayaks, or kits; how much are they; and where do you get them from in
the
UK?

Allan can tell you more. He got me my Cirrus from Eclipse who build the
Cirrus, and other racing kayaks, to order. I think some of the high spec
ones are built in Holland. My original Cirrus was a prototype and the
hull was imperfect, so I got it at a reduced price. Because of past
dealings and experiences with Eclipse, which leads me to deem them
trustworthy, I have ordered a new one without asking, and without
worrying, about the price as the new ones have improved seating and
footrest adjusters. I'm guessing prices will start around £600 but don't
hold me to it.

David
Not a fan of being tied down.

Having attracted several responses with my original post I think it is time
that I thanked everyone, so ... Thanks!

All your comments have been well received. Here is a bit of personal
feedback:

I shall certainly be going to "sit in" some kayaks in the coming weeks, as
Peter, and particularly Charlie has urged me to do. I had already done
what they advised re getting a good paddle, before I posted - I bought a
Lendal Kinetic Touring (2 piece, 215 cm, with variable joint) with a
kinked carbon-fibre shaft and nylon blades. It's a beaut.

I know I want a boat suitable for lazy recreational and modest touring use
(ie with storage facilities), but not a big capacity boat that has me
bobbing around on the top of waves when its storage holds are empty, due
to the fact that I weigh so little myself.

I am intrigued by the Cirrus suggestion from Allan and David but I would
prefer to see more images, technical/design info, supplier/pricing data
and users reviews on the net first, and I just can't find any
manaufacturer or retailer websites offering this.

I agree with Peter that the Valley Avocet RM offers a lot for someone with
my brief. In fact, I may eliminate the Vela from my list (and instead
include the Easky or Capella RM) because it is a composite and I think all
the evaluating I am doing here and elsewhere tells me a good plastic boat
would be more sensible than a composite for my first purchase, given some
of the inland settings in which I expect to paddle.

I'm pretty settled on the idea of a boat around 15' - 16' long to optimise
the tracking/maneouvrability issue. And I'm keener on a retractable skeg
model rather than a ruddered boat.

I realise I need to go for as narrow a boat as I can fit into comfortably
(to make the regular paddling angles as easy on my arms and shoulders as
possible).

I'm now mostly preoccupied with the question of pay off between initial
and secondary 'stability'. I don't want a flat bottomed boat of any
description, but I can see that a boat designed for hard-core sea kayaking
could be unnecessarily tippy on say a canal or lake.

I realise some of you might think I'm being too 'theoretical' and need to
get in a damn boat! But I am boating each week on a river or lake while
this thought process of mine is taking place. Plus, I like working things
out as well as I can before buying things.

So, that's where I've got to friends. By all means write more if you want,
as I would be keen to read your views. If not, Thanks as I said for your
contributions up till now.
:-)

Jayno55 wrote:

I agree with Peter that the Valley Avocet RM offers a lot for someone w=
ith
my brief. In fact, I may eliminate the Vela from my list (and instead
include the Easky or Capella RM) because it is a composite and I think =
all
the evaluating I am doing here and elsewhere tells me a good plastic bo=
at
would be more sensible than a composite for my first purchase, given so=
me
of the inland settings in which I expect to paddle.=20

I threw in the Avocet as just another option to show it's rather=20
difficult using paper to narrow things down. Add it to the list to try, =

don't take things off until you try them. But I wouldn't put the=20
Capella on your list, it's a big boat and a bit of a tub unladen (TSKC=20
has one).

Plastic boats are great for rocky landings. OTOH they're difficult to=20
customise much if you want to change things in future (which you might=20
as you don't know what you want yet) and they're also harder to maintain =

and repair. A white water boat getting furry doesn't matter much, a=20
tourer will get slower and harder to paddle.

I realise I need to go for as narrow a boat as I can fit into comfortab=
ly
(to make the regular paddling angles as easy on my arms and shoulders a=
s
possible).

It's not that simple. A broader boat will probably be more stable and=20
until you have more experience keeping it up with your hips you'll have=20
to do more work with braced strokes to keep a narrower, more tippy boat=20
upright. So if the conditions are less than perfect you may end up=20
doing /more/ work in a narrower boat.

I realise some of you might think I'm being too 'theoretical' and need =
to
get in a damn boat!=20

No, you need to get in several damn boats and find out if what you like=20
in theory is the same as you like in practice. For example, the broad=20
vs. narrow issue. Glass boat vs. plastic. etc.

this thought process of mine is taking place. Plus, I like working thin=
gs
out as well as I can before buying things.

So do I. but over the years I've come to learn that what I want on paper =

does not necessarily work quite as well for me in practice. I bought=20
the boat I did because it was a steal and I knew it would do what I=20
wanted, even if it wasn't my perfect boat "on paper". I'm very glad I=20
bought it, because paddling it showed there were things I'd decided I=20
wanted that turned out not to matter, and things I hadn't thought about=20
that did.

Getting out there and paddling different boats is the best way to select =

them.

And don't rule out second hand. My gf bought a nice McNulty sea boat=20
for =A3200 earlier this summer. A bit of gelcoat filler and sanding cure=
d=20
a leak and some cosmetic damage, and this winter we'll glass in an oval=20
hatch. Then she'll have a good glass touring boat for less than half=20
the price of a new plastic one.

Pete.
--=20
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

OK, I surrender Peter!

I promise I'll try every non-"tub"-like kayak I can lay my hands on, get
my bum into, and see each end of in one look - no matter what it's made
out of, whether it's space age new or steam gauge ancient, and regardless
of if it has a windscreen heater and reverse gear or not. I agree to
suppress all temptation to preconceived ideas of what will float, and I'll
even consider renting out my brick built home and living in a dormakayak
for 6 months ... (or maybe I won't) ....

Thanks for your further thoughts and good advice ;-)

In article outboats.com,
Jayno55 URL:mailto
Having attracted several responses with my original post I think it is time
that I thanked everyone, so ... Thanks!

All your comments have been well received. Here is a bit of personal
feedback:

I shall certainly be going to "sit in" some kayaks in the coming weeks, as
Peter, and particularly Charlie has urged me to do. I had already done
what they advised re getting a good paddle, before I posted - I bought a
Lendal Kinetic Touring (2 piece, 215 cm, with variable joint) with a
kinked carbon-fibre shaft and nylon blades. It's a beaut.

I know I want a boat suitable for lazy recreational and modest touring use
(ie with storage facilities), but not a big capacity boat that has me
bobbing around on the top of waves when its storage holds are empty, due
to the fact that I weigh so little myself.

I am intrigued by the Cirrus suggestion from Allan and David but I would
prefer to see more images, technical/design info, supplier/pricing data
and users reviews on the net first, and I just can't find any
manaufacturer or retailer websites offering this.

I agree with Peter that the Valley Avocet RM offers a lot for someone with
my brief. In fact, I may eliminate the Vela from my list (and instead
include the Easky or Capella RM) because it is a composite and I think all
the evaluating I am doing here and elsewhere tells me a good plastic boat
would be more sensible than a composite for my first purchase, given some
of the inland settings in which I expect to paddle.

I'm pretty settled on the idea of a boat around 15' - 16' long to optimise
the tracking/maneouvrability issue. And I'm keener on a retractable skeg
model rather than a ruddered boat.

I realise I need to go for as narrow a boat as I can fit into comfortably
(to make the regular paddling angles as easy on my arms and shoulders as
possible).

I'm now mostly preoccupied with the question of pay off between initial
and secondary 'stability'. I don't want a flat bottomed boat of any
description, but I can see that a boat designed for hard-core sea kayaking
could be unnecessarily tippy on say a canal or lake.

I realise some of you might think I'm being too 'theoretical' and need to
get in a damn boat! But I am boating each week on a river or lake while
this thought process of mine is taking place. Plus, I like working things
out as well as I can before buying things.

So, that's where I've got to friends. By all means write more if you want,
as I would be keen to read your views. If not, Thanks as I said for your
contributions up till now.
:-)

IMO, the Cirrus fits your original brief perfectly, but your conclusions
above do not agree with your brief...

Polythene is heavy, sluggish and naff. Fittings are C&N and lack comfort
and versatility.

A rudder is good enough for racing and touring boats in all conditions
including huge weir shoots, lakes and seas, but you would opt for a
retractable skeg?

I would advise you to not even try a Cirrus, it's a very practical boat,
considered to be a standard and the boat chosen for eg the London Youth
Games, but won't fit into your pre-conceived conclusions you call
theoretical, I'm afraid.


Allan Bennett
Not a fan of retraction

--

In article , Peter Clinch
URL:mailto

I realise I need to go for as narrow a boat as I can fit into comfortably
(to make the regular paddling angles as easy on my arms and shoulders as
possible).

It's not that simple.
A broader boat will probably be more stable and until you have more
experience keeping it up with your hips you'll have to do more work with
braced strokes to keep a narrower, more tippy boat upright. So if the
conditions are less than perfect you may end up doing /more/ work in a
narrower boat.

Not sure that I agree with you on this point - good forwards paddling
technique is what supports paddler and boat and, in open-cockpit boats, the
hips are not used for support or boat control. With support in the water
from the blade, the effective boat-width is the same for wide or narrow boats
(within sensible limits, of course - ie those which pertain to the boats
which I know). A brace stoke indicates a failure in paddling technique in
benign conditions at least, and a larger-volume boat will be more affected by
choppy conditions than a narrow one, so can feel more unstable to an
experienced paddler.

Obviously proper paddling techniques don't transfer to closed-cockpit boats
:-)


Allan Bennett
Not a fan of braces

--

Allan Bennett wrote:

Not sure that I agree with you on this point - good forwards paddling
technique is what supports paddler and boat and

and good forward paddling technique is employed 100% of the time in a
racing context, but people out for gentle tours who might want to stop
and look at the wildlife or take an easy snack or sun-cream break will
quite often be pausing. In the case of the sun cream break not even
holding the paddle.

in open-cockpit boats, the
hips are not used for support or boat control. With support in the water
from the blade, the effective boat-width is the same for wide or narrow boats

Ah, but see above. My perspective on how one spends time in a cockpit
on a fairly gentle tour for a novice paddler is probably nearer the OP's
than yours. We're not all experts at forward paddling who apply that
expertise 100% of the time in the boat.

Obviously proper paddling techniques don't transfer to closed-cockpit boats
:-)

It does when one is paddling, but when I'm looking at the sea otters and
puffins, or consulting a chart, or undoing a pocket to get a snack out
then I'll freely admit it isn't up to much!

Pete.
a fan of stopping to enjoy the scenery.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Allan Bennett" wrote in message
...

I would advise you to not even try a Cirrus, it's a very practical
boat,
considered to be a standard and the boat chosen for eg the London
Youth
Games, but won't fit into your pre-conceived conclusions you call
theoretical, I'm afraid.


Hmmm, nice rattle throw.

David
not a fan of twisted knickers.

Just for the record, I have now tried a few boats out and have made a
decision, or rather a split decision. I am very persuaded that the new P&H
composite Capella 163 (not on their website yet, but very much in
production) is the boat that will do what I want, and let me grow into it
as a early stage kayaker. But for my 'apprentice' phase, I have bought an
ex-demo P&H Easky because it felt good when I tried it, offers most of the
things I was after, and was available at a price I couldn't refuse. The
Capella will probably come later.

Thanks to all on here who offered me advice, including those who may have
been irritated by my newbie's ignorance. There is a learning in all manner
of reactions.

Safe paddling - Jayno :-)

"Jayno55" wrote in message
lkaboutboats.com...
Thanks to all on here who offered me advice, including those who may
have
been irritated by my newbie's ignorance.

No problem from my POV. You have to learn somehow, hopefully without too
much pain in the process.

There is a learning in all manner of reactions.

Indeed, quite so.

Safe paddling - Jayno :-)

You too.
If you want to try out a Cirrus sometime post a message here.
Email is ignored & deleted unless you are recognised by my filter.

David
Not a fan of ignorami