"Michael Daly" wrote...

I like the wave friendliness of the
Pintail but dislike it's stodginess for pace.

I don't know anything about production kayaks. What actual speeds are you
talking about? What are the "no sweat" and hull speeds of the 2 kayaks?

For reference, my Pygmy Coho goes 3 kt at a leisurely "all day" pace (no
wind, flat water), and the hull speed is right at 5.


Also, this is an
Expedition layup model---darn, must be 80# empty.

Probably around 60-65 lb, but I know what you mean.

If you got the time, build one at closer to 42#! :-)

On Aug 6, 11:35 pm, "John Weiss" wrote:
"Michael Daly" wrote...

I like the wave friendliness of the
Pintail but dislike it's stodginess for pace.

I don't know anything about production kayaks. What actual speeds are you
talking about? What are the "no sweat" and hull speeds of the 2 kayaks?

For reference, my Pygmy Coho goes 3 kt at a leisurely "all day" pace (no
wind, flat water), and the hull speed is right at 5.

I haven't done the calculation. One seems to take all day to get
somewhere, with the other you're there in short order. Impressions
count!

I also note that yesterday I went to the Seda homepage and noticed
that they're selling the boat with a slogan like "with speed comes
safety!" I doubt that the Pintail is sold like that at all. That kinda
relates to my hunch that I posted earlier. I kinda like being able to
do a modest hour+ hop before the weather changes.

Really, these boats represent two TOTALLY DIFFERENT approaches to
touring.

I think I'll go for the Pintail for this trip. I'll take my time and
enjoy how nicely the Pintail behaves with all the biggish swells I'm
likely to get.

Also, this is an
Expedition layup model---darn, must be 80# empty.

Probably around 60-65 lb, but I know what you mean.

If you got the time, build one at closer to 42#! :-)

No time, man!

I let other guys do the work then buy their cast-offs when they get
the itch to build something new! : ) The guy who used to have both
of these boats built the Seda-copy---he said it was only about 30 lbs
before he added the hatches, lines, fixtures---now it weighs lots
more. But even at 19 feet it's still not as heavy as the 17' Pintail
with all its fixtures/lines/pump. How did they get so much weight into
such a slim, low-volume "little" boat? (Compared to the Glider, the
Pintail with its fine ends seems SMALL.) I think my pal damaged the
Pintail bottom at one point, patched it, then ended up painting most
of the bottom with some weird white epoxy paint---maybe that also
added a buncha weight. But I'm a wimp---I really prefer my 25# kevlar
C1 for daily lake use. So easy to handle off the water! (When I go
bike touring I mail most everything home after the first couple days.
I'm getting better though---to avoid starting out with too much in
first place. Yet when I go by car for a weekend outing, dang, that rig
FILLS UP.)

Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) wrote:

I also note that yesterday I went to the Seda homepage and noticed
that they're selling the boat with a slogan like "with speed comes
safety!" I doubt that the Pintail is sold like that at all.

Naah, the Pintail would be something like "With handling comes safety."
You wouldn't use downhill skis on a slalom course, no matter how
"fast" they are.

BTW - I know a lot of kayakers who paddle a Pintail at the same speed
as many can paddle a Seda under touring conditions. I also know someone
who bought a Seda (forget which model) for "speed" and spent an
incredible amount of time getting back into the kayak after tipping
over. YMMV.

Mike

On Aug 6, 11:35 pm, "John Weiss" wrote:
"Michael Daly" wrote...

I like the wave friendliness of the
Pintail but dislike it's stodginess for pace.

I don't know anything about production kayaks. What actual speeds are you
talking about? What are the "no sweat" and hull speeds of the 2 kayaks?

PS: Again, this is perhaps really a discussion about the two main
different ways of seakayaking. Curveboat or straightboat. Or, what are
the official names? Greenland style versus, uh, Euro? ...Glider vs.
Pintail... Can't get more different!

My initial readings of the differences a

*Glider: fast, awkward
"Pintail: slow, comfy

Ugh, what a dilemma!

I suppose there are (quite a few?) boats that are happy in the middle
or perhaps solve both needs. ?

Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) wrote:

I suppose there are (quite a few?) boats that are happy in the middle
or perhaps solve both needs. ?

None that I know of solve both needs. However, many are somewhere in
the middle.

Mike

"Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)" wrote...

PS: Again, this is perhaps really a discussion about the two main
different ways of seakayaking. Curveboat or straightboat. Or, what are
the official names? Greenland style versus, uh, Euro? ...Glider vs.
Pintail... Can't get more different!

My initial readings of the differences a

*Glider: fast, awkward
"Pintail: slow, comfy

Ugh, what a dilemma!

I suppose there are (quite a few?) boats that are happy in the middle
or perhaps solve both needs. ?

Again, without knowing the actual speeds attainable in each kayak, it's
impossible to suggest an "in the middle" boat. How "fast" is the glider?
How "slow" is the Pintail? Is it only a perception, or is the speed
difference real?

Also, handling is another issue. How do each of them handle in a cross- or
following sea? Do they need rudders to maintain control? If so, how much
does the rudder slow them down?

I'm a fan of KISS. I built my Coho without a rudder, and am very pleased
with its handling without one. Every time I see one of the fancy 'glass
kayaks, I wonder how they would handle without their [various] retractable
rudders & skegs. I also wonder how I would manhandle a 65#+ kayak to the
top of the car without help...

I'm going with the Pintail on this outing. (A few days kayak-tent-
touring in the Straits of Mackinaw---hooking up with folks who are
doing much of the cooking...)

My comfort curve in this boat is doubling every day. What fun!

Yeah, it's a pain to cartop but I'll deal---I'm not complaining about
a sweet boat like this that we got for $300! Sure, it's heavy but
whatever. Our local pals call it the "Lead Sled" but it's fun on the
water. I hope to find grass for dragging it to the water.

I think this boat is gonna love any kind of swells that come our way.

Today I was rolling both ways lots of times and practicing no-set-up
rolls and random tip-over rolls to either side and coming up on either
side---what fun! I couldn't do this last year---but then I'd been
practicing in my Glider! (And not practicing all that much. I'm
finally putting in some time---and finally have the mental picture
down.)

I did bail out once but then got back in easily with my paddlefloat.
Then I rolled a few times with water-heavy cockpit, no prob.

I was also doing highbraces to the point of overturning the boat and
righting again readily. It's fun putting my torso/head in the water
and coming up again. I like the semi-immersion aspect of these low
volume boats. (After spending most of my summer outdoor time on road
bikes, getting wet is a joy.)

Seems like a nice boat for a couple day semi-supported jaunt---in the
moderate conditions that I'll let myself go out in.

Onward! --JP
outyourbackdoor.com

Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) wrote:

I'm not complaining about
a sweet boat like this that we got for $300!

You got a Pintail for $300???? You suck !!!



:-)

Mike

On Aug 8, 1:05 am, Michael Daly wrote:
Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) wrote:

I'm not complaining about
a sweet boat like this that we got for $300!

You got a Pintail for $300???? You suck !!!

:-)

Mike

Got the Glider for $250...

(Special deals from a good friend for his wacky pals! The best kind of
garage sale! Heck, I think he tossed in a carbon paddle, skirts, dry-
tops, PFDs...there was one more set-up that I tried to get another pal
into but he hesitated. I recall we coulda had 3 complete rigs for $1K
total. Our "host" friend is still on the water and has plenty of
goodies for loaning out. We didn't clean him out! But he can now
almost get a car in his garage!)

--JP

Well, I had a great first seakayak tour up at the Straits of Mackinaw!

I put up a few pics and reports at my http://outyourbackdoor.com
homepage for your enjoyment.

I paddled out about 12 miles (4 hours) the first day and got to my
camping destination. The weather was calm and I could see the lake
bottom maybe 30 feet down as I approached the various islands along
the way. The first part of the day was my biggest passage, about 4
miles of open water, from St. Ignace to Mackinaw Island. It went
fine.

I thought that the Pintail was a bit slow, though! And I brought about
10 lbs too much stuff. I filled the 3 hatches right up with a total of
maybe 30 lbs.

Boy, I was tired when I got to my destination! I'm in good general
shape but not dialed in for paddling.

I mixed up my paddling techniques to use different muscle groups but a
lot of the time I tried the full-rotation method. However, what seemed
most efficient for the long-haul was to use a high cadence and to only
bury half my blades in the water! And to use only half rotation and to
keep arms lowish. To just stay relaxed and paddle quite easily,
basically. I'm sure that more fitness would help but I'd also like to
check out a Greenland paddle sometime as it seems conducive to that
technique as well as to rolling.

After a few days camping (attending the Great Lakes Primitive Skills
Gathering on Bois Blanc Island) the wind picked up and I got in a
practice session of rolling and self-rescue in sizeable waves, rolling
both ways. Good fun! (I'm new enough at rolling that I still get
disoriented when upside down. I tried a couple times to look around
when I was under but it seemed like I was facing backwards each time.
So I just skipped that. Maybe I'll try a face mask sometime.)

It looked like it would be a freshening blue day as I left homeward
bound, so I left early and paddled the first couple hours in a mild
headwind, accompanied by Monarch butterflies---I was going about their
pace.

I took a couple hour break on Mackinaw Island (to do a photostory on
island bicycles) then set out for the final 4 mile crossing. The wind
had really piped up, with whitecap waves. The boat was stable, though,
and I gave myself a test for progress and decided to go for it. It
took the same 2 hour time to cross against 20mph headwind as it did to
cross in the calm a few days earlier! It was pretty intense. My
hardest paddle ever, really. It was pretty hard work just to rotate my
torso against the wind. I paced myself and varied the effort and also
found myself doing Indian chants (never did that before!) and random
singing and whistling. The waves were a bit mixed and also altered due
to the big ferries passing just to my south. Every now and then they'd
all cancel out for a slooshy zone of about 50 yards and I'd go for it
until they got big again from the front or the side. My wrist started
to get sore just after entering the harbor on the other side! I'm glad
it held out. 2 hours isn't such a big deal---nor is a breezy, wavey,
nice blue day---but I thought it would surely be 3 hours. (Dang, come
to think of it, I didn't have a water bottle or snack outside my
sprayskirt. 3 hours would've had me bonky.)

The Pintail loved those waves and ignored the wind. I wonder how the
Glider would've done? : ) I'm basically really glad I took the
Pintail due to that last intense passage. (Although a couple hours
later the wind piped down again!)

I do look forward to testing the Glider out in wind and waves and to
seeing if I can roll it now.

--JP