Paddling single in a tandem - what about weight?
 

After several years of renting, I purchased a tandem [Necky Amaruk] a
couple of weeks ago. I figure either my wife or my daughter will
accompany me most of the time. However, I anticipate that I'll be more
fanatical than they. So, on those days when I'm alone, are there
recommendations re weight distribution? Is it much of an issue? Should
I place dead weight on the forward cockpit? Should I place dead weight
near the bow? Any good ideas re dead weight; I'm thinking of bottled
water in a mesh bag.

Thanks in advance.

frtzw906

On 2 Mar 2005 10:16:46 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:

After several years of renting, I purchased a tandem [Necky Amaruk] a
couple of weeks ago. I figure either my wife or my daughter will
accompany me most of the time. However, I anticipate that I'll be more
fanatical than they. So, on those days when I'm alone, are there
recommendations re weight distribution? Is it much of an issue? Should
I place dead weight on the forward cockpit? Should I place dead weight
near the bow? Any good ideas re dead weight; I'm thinking of bottled
water in a mesh bag.

A friend does this with his smallish 2 person canoe going solo, but
with just him in it he reverses the bow and stern to get better
balance with less ballast, and a better position for paddling.

Obviously easier with two pointy ends. ;-)

Just be clear which bottles have known drinkable water, and which have
river water.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

I do it all the time. I don't usually add weight to my boat just to get
the trim right, but if I have camping gear, etc., then I will try to use
it to trim the boat level.

I paddle the boat backwards, sitting on the "front" seat. When the
situation merits, I kneel and move forward to the center thwart, which
gets me close to the center of the boat.

Be aware that when the wind is strong, trim is critical, and the high
end of the boat will tend to point downwind. You may need to change
position (trim) if you have high wind. The classic error is sitting in
the rear of the boat trying to go against a headwind. It can look
pretty comical, if you are on shore. Better to turn around and put the
high end of the boat downwind.

Richard


BCITORGB wrote:
After several years of renting, I purchased a tandem [Necky Amaruk] a
couple of weeks ago. I figure either my wife or my daughter will
accompany me most of the time. However, I anticipate that I'll be more
fanatical than they. So, on those days when I'm alone, are there
recommendations re weight distribution? Is it much of an issue? Should
I place dead weight on the forward cockpit? Should I place dead weight
near the bow? Any good ideas re dead weight; I'm thinking of bottled
water in a mesh bag.

Thanks in advance.

frtzw906

==========
I paddle the boat backwards, sitting on the "front" seat. When the
situation merits, I kneel and move forward to the center thwart, which
gets me close to the center of the boat.
=======================

I'm thinking this suggestion will be difficult with the rudder in the
stern GRIN. Is your suggestion canoe-specific?

The Necky Amaruk is a tandem kayak.

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
After several years of renting, I purchased a tandem [Necky Amaruk] a
couple of weeks ago. I figure either my wife or my daughter will
accompany me most of the time. However, I anticipate that I'll be more
fanatical than they. So, on those days when I'm alone, are there
recommendations re weight distribution? Is it much of an issue? Should
I place dead weight on the forward cockpit? Should I place dead weight
near the bow? Any good ideas re dead weight; I'm thinking of bottled
water in a mesh bag.

Paddling a tandem solo is generally a bad idea, as it can become
completely uncontrollable in any significant wind and waves, due to poor
weight distribution.

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
==========
I paddle the boat backwards, sitting on the "front" seat. When the
situation merits, I kneel and move forward to the center thwart, which
gets me close to the center of the boat.
=======================

I'm thinking this suggestion will be difficult with the rudder in the
stern GRIN. Is your suggestion canoe-specific?

===========================
The classic error is sitting in
the rear of the boat trying to go against a headwind. It can look
pretty comical, if you are on shore.
=============================

I'm thinking that this statement, as it appears, is pretty comical. g

--riverman

Sorry guys, I was talking about a canoe.

Richard


BCITORGB wrote:
==========
I paddle the boat backwards, sitting on the "front" seat. When the
situation merits, I kneel and move forward to the center thwart, which
gets me close to the center of the boat.
=======================

I'm thinking this suggestion will be difficult with the rudder in the
stern GRIN. Is your suggestion canoe-specific?

The Necky Amaruk is a tandem kayak.

frtzw906

Brian says:
=======
Paddling a tandem solo is generally a bad idea, as it can become
completely uncontrollable in any significant wind and waves, due to
poor
weight distribution.
===============

Are there any recommendations then about adding weight, distributing it
appropriately, and ensuring that it doesn't shift?

Wilf

BCITORGB wrote:
Brian says:
=======
Paddling a tandem solo is generally a bad idea, as it can become
completely uncontrollable in any significant wind and waves, due to
poor
weight distribution.
===============

Are there any recommendations then about adding weight, distributing
it
appropriately, and ensuring that it doesn't shift?

Wilf

Simple enough. put your stuff in the front hatch or fill it with juggs
of water , put a spray cover or cockpit cover over the forward combing
and paddle away. The boat is heavy, long and kind of slow with one
paddler. Don't go out in 50 MPH winds and you should be fine.
Even if you put nothing up front you will be OK. I have paddled these
things a fair bit. ( I hate them , they are not my Capella or Explorer
). but it will work.
Anyone wanting to sell a single should get the posters address, he will
be after a single soon.
There are some great expeditions done with double kayaks paddled by a
lone paddler needing more carrying capacity.
You will want wheels for that monster. it is 100 lbs or close enough.
Good Luck
Alex

wrote in message
oups.com...

BCITORGB wrote:
Brian says:
=======
Paddling a tandem solo is generally a bad idea, as it can become
completely uncontrollable in any significant wind and waves, due to
poor
weight distribution.
===============

Are there any recommendations then about adding weight, distributing
it
appropriately, and ensuring that it doesn't shift?

Wilf

Simple enough. put your stuff in the front hatch or fill it with juggs
of water , put a spray cover or cockpit cover over the forward combing
and paddle away. The boat is heavy, long and kind of slow with one
paddler. Don't go out in 50 MPH winds and you should be fine.
Even if you put nothing up front you will be OK. I have paddled these
things a fair bit. ( I hate them , they are not my Capella or Explorer
). but it will work.
Anyone wanting to sell a single should get the posters address, he will
be after a single soon.
There are some great expeditions done with double kayaks paddled by a
lone paddler needing more carrying capacity.
You will want wheels for that monster. it is 100 lbs or close enough.
Good Luck
Alex


The only time I have seen someone paddle single in tandems, he sat in the
FRONT cockpit. He said that it was easier to 'drag' the rest of the boat
behind him and maneuver through rocks, currents, etc, than it was to 'push'
the front of the boat through turns.

YMMV, I'm an openboater. I sit in the middle.

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in
:


wrote in message
oups.com...

BCITORGB wrote:
Brian says:
=======
Paddling a tandem solo is generally a bad idea, as it can become
completely uncontrollable in any significant wind and waves, due to
poor weight distribution.
===============

Are there any recommendations then about adding weight, distributing
it appropriately, and ensuring that it doesn't shift?

Wilf

Simple enough. put your stuff in the front hatch or fill it with juggs
of water , put a spray cover or cockpit cover over the forward combing
and paddle away. The boat is heavy, long and kind of slow with one
paddler. Don't go out in 50 MPH winds and you should be fine.
Even if you put nothing up front you will be OK. I have paddled these
things a fair bit. ( I hate them , they are not my Capella or Explorer
). but it will work.
Anyone wanting to sell a single should get the posters address, he
will be after a single soon.
There are some great expeditions done with double kayaks paddled by a
lone paddler needing more carrying capacity.
You will want wheels for that monster. it is 100 lbs or close enough.
Good Luck
Alex


The only time I have seen someone paddle single in tandems, he sat in
the FRONT cockpit. He said that it was easier to 'drag' the rest of the
boat behind him and maneuver through rocks, currents, etc, than it was
to 'push' the front of the boat through turns.

Sounds like a lot of trouble to me. The obvious solution, of course, it to
buy a solo kayak. While the Necky Amaruk is fine affordable tandem, it's
just not intended for solo paddling.

YMMV, I'm an openboater. I sit in the middle.

For now...that is, if you can get your canoes to Hong Kong. Are you still
considering going over to the dark side and doing some kayak touring? As
much as I'm sure you'd hate to do it you may want to consider selling the
canoes and picking up a kayak in HK. Since someone else mentioned the
possibility of limited storage space, a folding kayak might be a good
option.

John F comments:
==============
The obvious solution, of course, it to
buy a solo kayak. While the Necky Amaruk is fine affordable tandem,
it's
just not intended for solo paddling.
================

As I've just purchased the Amaruk, I'm quite sure a solo is not in the
budget.

Perhaps I'm too obtuse or don't want to get the message "don't do it"
if that's what people are saying. Or are they saying it's not ideal?

I'm willing to deal with less than ideal conditions in terms of things
like paddling harder and moving slower. What I really need, however, is
people with expertise to weigh in with input on the extent this becomes
a safety issue. For example, by way of comparison (if that's even
possible), would I be safer in a 13'7"x24" Necky Zoar solo kayak or the
17'10"x28.5" Amaruk tandem (paddling solo - with about 100 pounds of
weight foreward)?

As an inexperienced kayaker, I realise my fixation on simply putting
weight in the foreward cockpit or hatch may be completely nutty and too
simplistic and may be missing other important variables. That's where
I'd appreciate the veterans' input.

As an aside (don't let my wife see this), I'm not sure my wife would
constitute much more than just dead weight (although more than 100
pounds).

Supplementary question: on longer, group expeditions, would a tandem
kayak be used (solo) to freight provisions?

frtzw906

I think you just need to go try it out. With the knowledge that you have a
disadvantage in high wind or strong current. With these in mind I think you
will be able to enjoy solo time in your boat. I have seen a very large
double used solo to gather firewood and it worked quite well. While you may
be limited in the conditions that you may use the boat solo there should be
no reason not to go out to a nice protected area and see how it feels.

--- This disadvantage could result in not being able to get back to shore.
Please explore the boats operation someplace where this is not a problem.
i.e. - Lake not Ocean

Ken

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
John F comments:
==============
The obvious solution, of course, it to
buy a solo kayak. While the Necky Amaruk is fine affordable tandem,
it's
just not intended for solo paddling.
================

As I've just purchased the Amaruk, I'm quite sure a solo is not in the
budget.

Perhaps I'm too obtuse or don't want to get the message "don't do it"
if that's what people are saying. Or are they saying it's not ideal?

I'm willing to deal with less than ideal conditions in terms of things
like paddling harder and moving slower. What I really need, however, is
people with expertise to weigh in with input on the extent this becomes
a safety issue. For example, by way of comparison (if that's even
possible), would I be safer in a 13'7"x24" Necky Zoar solo kayak or the
17'10"x28.5" Amaruk tandem (paddling solo - with about 100 pounds of
weight foreward)?

As an inexperienced kayaker, I realise my fixation on simply putting
weight in the foreward cockpit or hatch may be completely nutty and too
simplistic and may be missing other important variables. That's where
I'd appreciate the veterans' input.

As an aside (don't let my wife see this), I'm not sure my wife would
constitute much more than just dead weight (although more than 100
pounds).

Supplementary question: on longer, group expeditions, would a tandem
kayak be used (solo) to freight provisions?

frtzw906

No spam said:
=================
While you may
be limited in the conditions that you may use the boat solo there
should be
no reason not to go out to a nice protected area and see how it feels.
==================

Thanks! That might be a good start. I'm within minutes of a bay where I
could paddle for almost 2 hours and never have to be more than a few
meters from the shore (and where the shore is lined with residential
neighborhoods). That seems safe enough.

When I've tried it, I'll report back.

Cheers,
Wilf
================

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
John F comments:
==============
The obvious solution, of course, it to
buy a solo kayak. While the Necky Amaruk is fine affordable tandem,
it's
just not intended for solo paddling.
================

As I've just purchased the Amaruk, I'm quite sure a solo is not in the
budget.

Perhaps I'm too obtuse or don't want to get the message "don't do it"
if that's what people are saying. Or are they saying it's not ideal?

I'm willing to deal with less than ideal conditions in terms of things
like paddling harder and moving slower. What I really need, however, is
people with expertise to weigh in with input on the extent this becomes
a safety issue. For example, by way of comparison (if that's even
possible), would I be safer in a 13'7"x24" Necky Zoar solo kayak or the
17'10"x28.5" Amaruk tandem (paddling solo - with about 100 pounds of
weight foreward)?

As an inexperienced kayaker, I realise my fixation on simply putting
weight in the foreward cockpit or hatch may be completely nutty and too
simplistic and may be missing other important variables. That's where
I'd appreciate the veterans' input...

I can only speculate about kayaks, but I've done this many times in a 17
foot aluminum canoe. On occasions when I couldn't conveniently find enough
weight (I tended to rely on whatever I could find where I launched) the bow
would ride high and could get squirrelly in wind, otherwise it worked
beautifully. Obviously, it helps to get the weight as far forward as
possible. I'd guess I typically used about 60-75 lbs. or so forward of the
front seat.

Here's the speculation part: From what little I've seen of them, the seats
in two seater kayaks appear to be closer together and nearer the center of
the boat than is typical in a canoe. In theory, this means anyone soloing
from the back seat would have less affect on trim than in a canoe, and it
should be easier to balance. Unfortunately, the other seat is also closer
to center which means it would take more weight to counterbalance there. On
the other hand, if there is a forward hatch or some other way to get weight
up near the bow, it would take considerably less to do the job.

I can't think of any reason that dead weight should be a safety issue. I've
never paddled one of these boats, so I have no idea whether paddling alone
is a safety issue........but I wouldn't hesitate to try it myself.

Wolfgang

Melissa mentioned:
===================
If you have the workspace, a few basic wood working tools, and a bit
of time, you can build a very nice "high performance" skin on frame
single kayak for $200 USD or less!
==================

Thanks for the tip. I chuckled when I read it, because I had just come
in from the carport where I was fashioning a home-built dolly for my
kayak. I was, unfortunately, cursed with two left hands, making even
this simple project very challenging (and I asked myself why I hadn't
just gone out to buy one). The thought of me building a kayak was,
well... frightening.

Having said that, however, I love these sites, and I love stories of
people who can actually do real work with their hands.

Cheers,
Wilf
===============

Wolfgang says:
==============
In theory, this means anyone soloing
from the back seat would have less affect on trim than in a canoe, and
it
should be easier to balance. Unfortunately, the other seat is also
closer
to center which means it would take more weight to counterbalance
there. On
the other hand, if there is a forward hatch or some other way to get
weight
up near the bow, it would take considerably less to do the job.
===============

Wolfgang, that was pretty much my thinking as well, but I thought,
given the wealth of experience around this forum, that I'd ask.

It would be just like me to have given this a theoretical one-over,
only to have missed some fairly obvious practical variables. As a
lifetime klutz, I speak from experience. If it can be screwed up, I'll
be the one to do it (reality NEVER correlates with my abstractions!).

Wilf
=============

Melissa:
===========
Here are some pictures of the boat I built all by myself:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v61/watersprite/Kayak/

If *I* can do that, I'm sure you can! :-)
===========

WOW! WOW! You can be proud of that! Trust me, I couldn't do anything
like that. But my 16-year old daughter is doing amazing stuff in shop
at school. Perhaps I could interest her (she wants a kayak but blew her
budget on an up-coming school trip to Mexico).

Anyway, WOW! once more.

Wilf

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
ups.com...
Wolfgang says:
==============
In theory, this means anyone soloing
from the back seat would have less affect on trim than in a canoe, and
it
should be easier to balance. Unfortunately, the other seat is also
closer
to center which means it would take more weight to counterbalance
there. On
the other hand, if there is a forward hatch or some other way to get
weight
up near the bow, it would take considerably less to do the job.
===============

Wolfgang, that was pretty much my thinking as well, but I thought,
given the wealth of experience around this forum, that I'd ask.

It would be just like me to have given this a theoretical one-over,
only to have missed some fairly obvious practical variables. As a
lifetime klutz, I speak from experience. If it can be screwed up, I'll
be the one to do it (reality NEVER correlates with my abstractions!).

So, what's the worst that can happen? You die, right? :)

Wolfgang
um.......you won't sue me, will you? :(

Wolfgang opines:
=============
So, what's the worst that can happen? You die, right? :)

Wolfgang
um.......you won't sue me, will you? :(
====================

On the second point, my name's neither Tinker nor Weiser.

On the first point, in light of the reaction you got on the Florida
accident thread, I'll just leaving sleeping dogs lie. My theoretical
abstractions never include death, but, with reality, you can never be
sure.

Wilf

hi frtz
i always load my boat thean shove it out( holding a long line) and
look at it's attitude . if you do this enough and know your boat
,lading will become a breeze. shooter

shooter:
============
i always load my boat thean shove it out( holding a long line) and
look at it's attitude . if you do this enough and know your boat
,lading will become a breeze. shooter
==============

Thanks. Nice, practical approach to levelling out. I'll give it a shot.

Cheers,
Wilf

Melissa wrote in
:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Hi Wilf,

On 5 Mar 2005 12:28:17 -0800, you wrote:

Having said that, however, I love these sites, and I love stories of
people who can actually do real work with their hands.

I'm preparing to build my first skin on frame boat, but this past
summer, I finally finished building a wood/fiberglass Stitch & Glue
boat from a kit; an Arctic Hawk, built from a Chesapeake Light Craft
(CLC) kit. Before I built this boat, the only wood working
experience I had was a chessboard I built in a Jr. High School shop
class! Here are some pictures of the boat I built all by myself:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v61/watersprite/Kayak/

If *I* can do that, I'm sure you can! :-)

Mellissa's story is not unique. I know of two other women that built a
kayak (also from a kit) even though they had essentially no woodworking
experience whatsoever. One of them built a real nice Pygmy Coho in her
living room and there was a woman from NYC that had a web site up showing
the building of a S&G kayak in a second story apartment.

Having built a stitch-n-glue boat from a kit and also a cedar strip kayak
(http://caddis.mannlib.cornell.edu/paddle/outerisland) I didn't find the
cedar strip boat to be much more difficult. It was a more tedious, and took
considerably longer to build, but working with cedar strips is very
forgiving. I also ended up spending less on the cedar strip boat (about
$750) than on the S&G kit, primarily because I was able to use some of the
required tools that I had bought for the first boat (mostly a random orbital
sander, and lots of clamps).

Mellissa mentions the traditional skin-on-frame boats that can be built very
economically. Here's another option: http://yostwerks.com/MainMenu.html

That is most likely the next boat I will build, and I'll probably build two
of them. One for me, and one that my son can use when he gets old enough to
paddle (and that my nieces can use till then).

"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
"riverman" wrote in
:

YMMV, I'm an openboater. I sit in the middle.

For now...that is, if you can get your canoes to Hong Kong. Are you still
considering going over to the dark side and doing some kayak touring? As
much as I'm sure you'd hate to do it you may want to consider selling the
canoes and picking up a kayak in HK. Since someone else mentioned the
possibility of limited storage space, a folding kayak might be a good
option.

Hey John:
I heard from the school today that they have a fleet of ocean kayaks and I
have access. I think I'll get a folboat (canoe) for the interrum, and start
getting into seayaking. Sounds like a better way to get around in open water
than a canoe, if I can learn to get my lower back to bend enough!

--riverman

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
ups.com...
Wolfgang says:
==============
In theory, this means anyone soloing
from the back seat would have less affect on trim than in a canoe, and
it
should be easier to balance. Unfortunately, the other seat is also
closer
to center which means it would take more weight to counterbalance
there. On
the other hand, if there is a forward hatch or some other way to get
weight
up near the bow, it would take considerably less to do the job.
===============

Wolfgang, that was pretty much my thinking as well, but I thought,
given the wealth of experience around this forum, that I'd ask.

It would be just like me to have given this a theoretical one-over,
only to have missed some fairly obvious practical variables. As a
lifetime klutz, I speak from experience. If it can be screwed up, I'll
be the one to do it (reality NEVER correlates with my abstractions!).



One problem you'll have from sitting in the stern and putting weight in the
bow, wilf, is that your boat will be a lot harder to turn. Normally, the bow
paddler turns the front of the boat for you, so you will definately notice
their absence if you replace them with a rock or two.

The reason that solo boats tend to have the paddler in the middle (or just a
tiny bit astern) is that you can pivot the boat around the center of gravity
(your butt) with wide, circular sweeping strokes. However, if you sit in the
stern seat and put enough weight in the bow seat to keep the vessel trim,
you are too far behind the center of gravity to effectively rotate the boat
with paddling strokes. Instead, your turns tend to be 'driving strokes' as
you drive around a circle, or relatively inefficient draw strokes as you
drag the butt end of your boat around the center of gravity. Fine enough in
a lake, if you don't mind adding a few dozen yards and strokes to all of
your changes of direction, but very difficult to manage in a moving river,
where you often want to realign your boat direction without actually
changing the drift you are on.

In canoes, Wolfie, its pretty common (assuming the style of seat allows it)
to turn the boat around and sit in the 'bow seat', as this puts your body
closer to the center of the boat. Often, this maintains the proper trim by
itself, without having to add a load in the bow. Similarly, when loading
canoes for trips, you tend to put the heavier gear in the center of the boat
(water bottles, beer, pots and pans) and the lighter stuff (duffel, trash
bags, empty coffee pots) out near the ends, as they won't effect your
ability to pivot so much.

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in
:


"BCITORGB" wrote in message
ups.com...
Wolfgang says:
==============
In theory, this means anyone soloing
from the back seat would have less affect on trim than in a canoe, and
it should be easier to balance. Unfortunately, the other seat is also
closer to center which means it would take more weight to
counterbalance there. On
the other hand, if there is a forward hatch or some other way to get
weight up near the bow, it would take considerably less to do the job.
===============

Wolfgang, that was pretty much my thinking as well, but I thought,
given the wealth of experience around this forum, that I'd ask.

It would be just like me to have given this a theoretical one-over,
only to have missed some fairly obvious practical variables. As a
lifetime klutz, I speak from experience. If it can be screwed up, I'll
be the one to do it (reality NEVER correlates with my abstractions!).



One problem you'll have from sitting in the stern and putting weight in
the bow, wilf, is that your boat will be a lot harder to turn.
Normally, the bow paddler turns the front of the boat for you, so you
will definately notice their absence if you replace them with a rock or
two.

On the other hand, if someone is paddling a tandem kayak solo the stern seat
is the only one that might have rudder peddles.

John Fereira wrote:
=============
Mellissa mentions the traditional skin-on-frame boats that can be built
very
economically. Here's another option:
http://yostwerks.com/MainMenu.html
=============

Very interesting. I spent a good (FUN!) hour looking at those detailed
pics and instructions. I saw 1,001 places where I could screw up, but
were others could have a ball creating an interesting craft.

Thanks, John.

Cheers,
Wilf
============

"riverman" wrote in message
...

...In canoes, Wolfie, its pretty common (assuming the style of seat allows
it) to turn the boat around and sit in the 'bow seat', as this puts your
body closer to the center of the boat. Often, this maintains the proper
trim by itself, without having to add a load in the bow.

Yeah, I've tried that. I didn't like it. For one thing, while it does put
you closer to the center of the boat, in the case of my boat the difference
is not enough to eliminate the need for counterbalancing altogether.....the
bow still tended to ride high. Second, and more important, as you approach
the center of the canoe, the boat gets wider and you have to reach out
further to clear the gunwales. Probably not all that important from the
standpoint of mechanics, but it annoyed me.

Similarly, when loading canoes for trips, you tend to put the heavier gear
in the center of the boat (water bottles, beer, pots and pans) and the
lighter stuff (duffel, trash bags, empty coffee pots) out near the ends,
as they won't effect your ability to pivot so much.

Pivoting was never an issue for me. I spent all of my canoeing time on
lakes or low gradient rivers. There was never a single instance (aside from
trying to play a fish....in which cases both hands were busy anyway) when I
needed to be able to turn sharply.

Now that I think about it, I guess that what I really like about kayaking is
the relative freedom of motion versus canoeing and that I can do it alone
without having to make compromises enforced by the inherent limitations of
the craft.

Wolfgang

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

"riverman" wrote in message
...

...In canoes, Wolfie, its pretty common (assuming the style of seat
allows it) to turn the boat around and sit in the 'bow seat', as this
puts your body closer to the center of the boat. Often, this maintains
the proper trim by itself, without having to add a load in the bow.

Yeah, I've tried that. I didn't like it. For one thing, while it does
put you closer to the center of the boat, in the case of my boat the
difference is not enough to eliminate the need for counterbalancing
altogether.....the bow still tended to ride high. Second, and more
important, as you approach the center of the canoe, the boat gets wider
and you have to reach out further to clear the gunwales. Probably not all
that important from the standpoint of mechanics, but it annoyed me.

Similarly, when loading canoes for trips, you tend to put the heavier
gear in the center of the boat (water bottles, beer, pots and pans) and
the lighter stuff (duffel, trash bags, empty coffee pots) out near the
ends, as they won't effect your ability to pivot so much.

Pivoting was never an issue for me. I spent all of my canoeing time on
lakes or low gradient rivers. There was never a single instance (aside
from trying to play a fish....in which cases both hands were busy anyway)
when I needed to be able to turn sharply.

Now that I think about it, I guess that what I really like about kayaking
is the relative freedom of motion versus canoeing and that I can do it
alone without having to make compromises enforced by the inherent
limitations of the craft.



Heh heh heh, you're stepping in a minefield here, buddy. Those of us who are
diehard openboaters will be quick to challenge that there are any
'compromises enforced by inherent limitations' of canoes. They do what they
do...its not a compromise. And they do a lot more than it seems. An
openboater who is comfortable with their boat can paddle all day on a lake
without getting tired, or having the boat go in s-curves while they are
paddling straight, and would consider sitting down as low as a kayak getting
dripped on all day by that top blade as a compromise. Its an endless debate
with no solution, but I would mention that your leanings in the above post,
as well as in some others, tells me that you are lost to the dark side. Too
bad....you might have made a good open boater....

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in message
...

Heh heh heh, you're stepping in a minefield here, buddy.

"I can dance, I can dance, I can dance, I can dance.........."

Those of us who are diehard openboaters will be quick to challenge that
there are any 'compromises enforced by inherent limitations' of canoes.
They do what they do...its not a compromise. And they do a lot more than
it seems. An openboater who is comfortable with their boat can paddle all
day on a lake without getting tired, or having the boat go in s-curves
while they are paddling straight,

Compromise isn't an attribute of inanimate objects. You're right, canoes do
what they do. It's ME that has to compromise. I can sit in the middle of a
canoe, with all the advantages of maneuverability that this position
provides......and be uncomfortable in the process. Or, I can sit in the
stern where I am more comfortable and still have all the maneuverability
that I've ever needed. I'm willing to sacrifice the extra (and, for me,
unneeded) maneuverability. I find this to be an eminently reasonable
compromise.

and would consider sitting down as low as a kayak getting dripped on all
day by that top blade as a compromise.

And that's o.k. For me, on the other hand, this is not a compromise.

Its an endless debate with no solution,

It's only a debate for those who choose to participate in a debate. For
myself, I remain uncompromising in allowing every individaul to choose his
or her own path to hell......so long as they don't drag anyone unwilling
parties with them.

but I would mention that your leanings in the above post, as well as in
some others, tells me that you are lost to the dark side.

It's fun. Buy now, pay later.* :)

Too bad....you might have made a good open boater....

Been there. Used to do some racing back in the day. And remember, I DO
still own an open boat.

Wolfgang
*um.....dorian gray.......if memory serves.

BCITORGB wrote:
Wolfgang opines:
=============
So, what's the worst that can happen? You die, right? :)

Wolfgang
um.......you won't sue me, will you? :(
====================

On the second point, my name's neither Tinker nor Weiser.

On the first point, in light of the reaction you got on the Florida
accident thread, I'll just leaving sleeping dogs lie. My theoretical
abstractions never include death, but, with reality, you can never be
sure.

Wilf

Now BCITORGB, or is it Wilf, or frtwz906, I dont know who you really
are to file any legal papers, so you are safe for the time being! :)

I can't speak for SW, whether he knows anything about putting rocks in
kayaks or not. I know I would not recommend it, especially if you just
load the bottom of the boat with loose stones. Big problems result, in
a kayak that perchance should roll, and the inside of the top, becomes
the inside of the bottom, now all loaded down with all those loose
stones. Makes rolling back up with you on now the bottom, upside down
very difficult, as in how long can you hold your breath!

Even a wet exit and subsequent attempt to drain boat that is now full
of water, in addition to all those rocks, may be difficult if not
impossible to T-Bone your kayak if you have assistance, or especially
self rescuing. In other words, the solution for wrong design, is not to
upset the design stability of the boat, by loading the keel with
ballast.

Unnecessary dead weight adversely affect the design characteristics of
the boat, the limit of the offset is dependent on your paddling skill
and strength. I suspect that what the riverman can manage is a distant
vision for most of us mere mortals. The only solution is a different
design, or as has been recommended moving the live weight nearer the
center of effort, or the center of motion back to the center of effort,
which is you.

The easiest design change would be a larger rudder in your boat, which
would require more leg strength and action to maintain control. Don't
think of the rudder as a steering device, but as a trim device, to
control windage or current. Most paddle boats, even with rudder are
best steered with proper paddling technique, not the rudder!

An additional device that I have heard of, though not seen, is a strap
on skeg. Though the strap creates some additional drag, it would be a
small price to pay, for the increase in control under the windy
conditions. Also the skeg works better than the rudder if there is wave
action that is lifting the rudder clear of the water. The rudder does
no good when out of the water, and can actually act as a sail under the
"wrong" conditions. Causing even more steering difficulties, so the
first option of a larger rudder can also be counter-productive. Plus
for the rudder to be effective, you must maintain forward motion that
becomes less in abundance as you try to paddle into a head wind or
cross wind, and the boat tries to turn down wind.

The third option is to stay home with a cup of warm chocolate, setting
in the easy chair. Now the suggestor of these suggestions, accepts no
liabilities for any of the above recommendation, and all
recommendations are subject to peer review. Hence there can be no law
suits, or wet suits, or dry suits filed that would hinder your
enjoyment, or my enjoyment of the compromises of life!

BTW give a trip report of your weekend travels! TnT

Melissa wrote:
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Hash: RIPEMD160

Hi John,

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 19:11:29 GMT, you wrote:

On the other hand, if someone is paddling a tandem kayak solo the
stern seat is the only one that might have rudder peddles.

Or pedals! Sorry John...the sometimes annoyingly picky Virgo in my
just couldn't resist! ;-)

- --
Melissa

PGP Public Keys: http://www.willkayakforfood.tk

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Actually, a nice bouquet attached to my rudder, would give new meaning
to the very reflective sport of still-water kayaking! TnT

riverman wrote:
"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
"riverman" wrote in
:

YMMV, I'm an openboater. I sit in the middle.

For now...that is, if you can get your canoes to Hong Kong. Are
you still
considering going over to the dark side and doing some kayak
touring? As
much as I'm sure you'd hate to do it you may want to consider
selling the
canoes and picking up a kayak in HK. Since someone else mentioned
the
possibility of limited storage space, a folding kayak might be a
good
option.

Hey John:
I heard from the school today that they have a fleet of ocean kayaks
and I
have access. I think I'll get a folboat (canoe) for the interrum, and
start
getting into seayaking. Sounds like a better way to get around in
open water
than a canoe, if I can learn to get my lower back to bend enough!

--riverman

Way to go riverman! A new Folboter is born! TnT

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:49:08 +0100, "riverman" wrote:

Hey John:
I heard from the school today that they have a fleet of ocean kayaks and I
have access. I think I'll get a folboat (canoe) for the interrum, and start
getting into seayaking. Sounds like a better way to get around in open water
than a canoe, if I can learn to get my lower back to bend enough!

--riverman

Hey riverman, send me an email and I'll tell you about a really nifty deal
on a Folbot.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Illiterate? Write for FREE help

Galen Hekhuis wrote:
On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:49:08 +0100, "riverman"
wrote:

Hey John:
I heard from the school today that they have a fleet of ocean kayaks
and I
have access. I think I'll get a folboat (canoe) for the interrum,
and start
getting into seayaking. Sounds like a better way to get around in
open water
than a canoe, if I can learn to get my lower back to bend enough!

--riverman

Hey riverman, send me an email and I'll tell you about a really nifty
deal
on a Folbot.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA

Illiterate? Write for FREE help

riverman, I was also going to mention the Folbot Edisto, which is an
foldable open boat, with a full removable spray skirt. I have never
seen one, but I know that RkyMtnRay has one and is enthusiatic. You
might be able to find him on the Folbotforum. Evidently it can be
paddled open, decked, and with a full spray skirt. I have also heard
that they are outfitting with sails. I can see you with pictures of a
Junk sail and a flyrod! TnT

Tink requests a trip report:

OK, Tink, here goes...

This was the shake-down cruise for Barbie (my 15-year old) and me and,
of course, the Necky Amaruk. There were a number of things that we
needed to figure out. Yesterday we turned back because it was a bit too
windy and choppy. Under normal circumstances (that is, not a shake-down
cruise) we would clearly have ventured out. However, as we were trying
to get a feel for the craft, we thought discretion the better part of
valor.

As part of the shake-down, I wanted to determine if I could get the
kayak onto the roof-rack by myself. For starters, I'd affixed two
pool noodles to the front and back struts of the roof rack.

The process I'd decided on involved opening the front passenger door
and placing a third pool noodle (with a longitudinal slice to the
mid-point) over/along the top of the door frame. The kayak was then
placed on the ground at an angle -- with a vertex just past the right
rear bumper and with the kayak veering just to the right of the open
passenger door. I then lifted the front end of the kayak onto the open
door. With the front end of the kayak secure (OK, it was wobbly) on top
of the front door frame, I then walked to the back of the kayak and
hoisted the back end onto the roof rack. Next, back to the front end,
and lifting the front off the door frame and onto the front of the roof
rack. Voila! Now it was just a matter of tying down the kayak. This
could easily be done by me (a little more height would have been
advantageous). A plastic dairy crate came in handy when tying the boat
to the car.

NOTE: I'M OPEN TO ALTERNATE, BETTER WAYS OF GETTING A 90+ POUND KAYAK
ONTO AN AEROSTAR VAN

To get the kayak off the van, we reversed the process. Barbie and I
then walked the boat down the concrete boat ramp and into the water. I
was wearing shorts and sandals, so I walked the boat through the
shallow waters away from the ramp and onto the sandy beach. One of our
objectives was to see if Barbie could stay entirely dry.

At the beach, we put our spray skirts and life jackets on. Barbie
stepped into the front cockpit and remained dry in doing so. After
she's secured her spray skirt, I straddled the kayak and got in.
Barbie paddled away from shore as I worked on securing my spray skirt.
As I have a very negative Ape Coefficient (also known as short, stubby
arms) I've always had trouble with reaching around to get the back of
spray skirts secured. No different this time. Eventually I decided to
go with the front of the skirt around the coaming and I don't know
what happening in the back. Suffice to say, this is something I'll
have to work on. Nonetheless, the front portion of the skirt stayed in
place throughout and kept paddle droplets from splashing my bare legs.

From the Ambleside Sailing Club beach, Barbie and I headed east, past
Ambleside Beach and past the doggie beach just to the east. East of the
doggie beach, we turned northward into the mouth of the Capilano River.
As it was high tide, we were able to pass under the railway bridge
(just as the CNR was shunting a freight train across it) and proceed
about 200 meters further up the river.

We then returned to the mouth of the Capilano and headed west, with the
bow pointed toward the John Lawson Park jetty. On our westward trip, we
passed the doggie park once more, with several dogs frolicking in the
water or chasing sticks their owners had thrown. Once we passed
Ambleside Point and its First Nations totem with out-stretched,
welcoming arms, we turned in towards the beach. Here, a few families
were strolling along the beach combing for treasures. As we neared the
Ambleside Sailing Club clubhouse, the spot of our launch, we veered
south so as to get past the Ambleside jetty. Several fishermen had
lines out into the water and we made a wide berth around so as to not
disturb these lines. A number of ropes into the water also indicated
that someone had placed crab traps there.

From the Ambleside jetty to the John Lawson Park jetty we were careful
to avoid logs and other wood debris that the high tide had floated.
Once past the John Lawson Park jetty we retraced our path to Ambleside
and the beach where we'd launched.

As this was our shake-down cruise, we still had a few objectives to
meet. We successfully beached the kayak and Barbie was able to get out
without getting her feet wet. Getting the kayak back on to the van was
trouble-free. Within 15 minutes we were on the road. Five minutes later
we pulled into the driveway at home.

A successful first trip (4.2 kilometers) in gorgeous, by now, 15C,
bright, sunny, weather.

Can't wait to get out again. Weather forecast calls for more good
weather (possibly up to 19C -- that's "double it and add 30" for the
metrically impaired, as per an ancient Bob and Doug MacKenzie skit)
tomorrow.

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink requests a trip report:

OK, Tink, here goes...

This was the shake-down cruise for Barbie (my 15-year old) and me
and,
of course, the Necky Amaruk. There were a number of things that we
needed to figure out. Yesterday we turned back because it was a bit
too
windy and choppy. Under normal circumstances (that is, not a
shake-down
cruise) we would clearly have ventured out. However, as we were
trying
to get a feel for the craft, we thought discretion the better part of
valor.

As part of the shake-down, I wanted to determine if I could get the
kayak onto the roof-rack by myself. For starters, I'd affixed two
pool noodles to the front and back struts of the roof rack.

The process I'd decided on involved opening the front passenger door
and placing a third pool noodle (with a longitudinal slice to the
mid-point) over/along the top of the door frame. The kayak was then
placed on the ground at an angle -- with a vertex just past the right
rear bumper and with the kayak veering just to the right of the open
passenger door. I then lifted the front end of the kayak onto the
open
door. With the front end of the kayak secure (OK, it was wobbly) on
top
of the front door frame, I then walked to the back of the kayak and
hoisted the back end onto the roof rack. Next, back to the front end,
and lifting the front off the door frame and onto the front of the
roof
rack. Voila! Now it was just a matter of tying down the kayak. This
could easily be done by me (a little more height would have been
advantageous). A plastic dairy crate came in handy when tying the
boat
to the car.

NOTE: I'M OPEN TO ALTERNATE, BETTER WAYS OF GETTING A 90+ POUND KAYAK
ONTO AN AEROSTAR VAN

To get the kayak off the van, we reversed the process. Barbie and I
then walked the boat down the concrete boat ramp and into the water.
I
was wearing shorts and sandals, so I walked the boat through the
shallow waters away from the ramp and onto the sandy beach. One of
our
objectives was to see if Barbie could stay entirely dry.

At the beach, we put our spray skirts and life jackets on. Barbie
stepped into the front cockpit and remained dry in doing so. After
she's secured her spray skirt, I straddled the kayak and got in.
Barbie paddled away from shore as I worked on securing my spray
skirt.
As I have a very negative Ape Coefficient (also known as short,
stubby
arms) I've always had trouble with reaching around to get the back of
spray skirts secured. No different this time. Eventually I decided to
go with the front of the skirt around the coaming and I don't know
what happening in the back. Suffice to say, this is something I'll
have to work on. Nonetheless, the front portion of the skirt stayed
in
place throughout and kept paddle droplets from splashing my bare
legs.

From the Ambleside Sailing Club beach, Barbie and I headed east,
past
Ambleside Beach and past the doggie beach just to the east. East of
the
doggie beach, we turned northward into the mouth of the Capilano
River.
As it was high tide, we were able to pass under the railway bridge
(just as the CNR was shunting a freight train across it) and proceed
about 200 meters further up the river.

We then returned to the mouth of the Capilano and headed west, with
the
bow pointed toward the John Lawson Park jetty. On our westward trip,
we
passed the doggie park once more, with several dogs frolicking in the
water or chasing sticks their owners had thrown. Once we passed
Ambleside Point and its First Nations totem with out-stretched,
welcoming arms, we turned in towards the beach. Here, a few families
were strolling along the beach combing for treasures. As we neared
the
Ambleside Sailing Club clubhouse, the spot of our launch, we veered
south so as to get past the Ambleside jetty. Several fishermen had
lines out into the water and we made a wide berth around so as to not
disturb these lines. A number of ropes into the water also indicated
that someone had placed crab traps there.

From the Ambleside jetty to the John Lawson Park jetty we were
careful
to avoid logs and other wood debris that the high tide had floated.
Once past the John Lawson Park jetty we retraced our path to
Ambleside
and the beach where we'd launched.

As this was our shake-down cruise, we still had a few objectives to
meet. We successfully beached the kayak and Barbie was able to get
out
without getting her feet wet. Getting the kayak back on to the van
was
trouble-free. Within 15 minutes we were on the road. Five minutes
later
we pulled into the driveway at home.

A successful first trip (4.2 kilometers) in gorgeous, by now, 15C,
bright, sunny, weather.

Can't wait to get out again. Weather forecast calls for more good
weather (possibly up to 19C -- that's "double it and add 30" for the
metrically impaired, as per an ancient Bob and Doug MacKenzie skit)
tomorrow.

frtzw906

Hey frtwz, I'll give you an "A+" for the trip, and an "A++" for the
first trip report. Especially the part about taking your daughter out.
Those are some of the best times shared. So congradulations to her
also! Any trip that ends with just wet feet, and a happy heart is good
for an "A+"!


Next time though, start your shake down cruise on the dry land before
getting in the water, practice putting the skirt on while setting on
dry land, have your partner check that you are doing it right. Nothing
can ruin your trip, like shipping a boat load of water and then playing
submarine. Not that the kayak will likely sink, since you have lots of
flotation, but it can sure **** off your partner, if they get wet and
have to swim for it.

Also practice releasing the skirt, once you have it properly on.
Nothing can ruin your day, if you are upside down, and find that the
pull loop is stuck inside, or the skirt is so tight that you can't get
it to release, or your gloves are in the way, and you're running out of
air.

I had to learn both the above lessons the hard way, luckily, not the
hardest way. By that I mean, after I almost drown my wife and I, and
she got all wet swimming in our scummy pond water, she began talking to
me about a month later. Sucking an excess of water would have been
easier! :)

Also remember it is not air temp that is the most important, but water
temp. You mention wearing shorts and sandles. I also read your post
about wetsuits earlier, and wondered how cold the water was. Did you
try swimming in it, to see the effect on you. I read an account one
time about Navy SEALS that drowned while trying to swim just a short
distance to shore, in the cold water, and these guys were strong
swimmers. In other words don't take the cold water too lightly. You did
not say how far out from shore you were, but unless you can stand on
the bottom, you had better be prepared to swim. I am just getting to
know and like you, and would not want anything nasty to happen to you.

But good report, anyway, and I enjoyed reading it since I have been
stuck inside today. Weather here in Denver is weird at times, in fact
most of the time. Last week we had temps in the high 60F, and today the
heaviest snow of the winter. But it melts fast, and the grass will
start coming up green in a short while, and the ice is off the lake, so
soon I will be out chasing rainbows and pirate ships, or whatever it is
that drives us to leave a perfectly good sofa, and go paddle! TnT

Tink says:
=============
Also remember it is not air temp that is the most important, but water
temp. You mention wearing shorts and sandles. I also read your post
about wetsuits earlier, and wondered how cold the water was. Did you
try swimming in it, to see the effect on you. I read an account one
time about Navy SEALS that drowned while trying to swim just a short
distance to shore...
==============

My budget doesn't allow for a wetsuit yet (Father's Day perhaps... I
keep hinting), so shorts and sandals will have to do. As to swimming in
the water, not me my friend. However, both daughters are cold-blooded
and have been known to "swim" in January or February, but, I need to
add, NOT serious "I'm swimming for my life"-type swimming. But I take
your point. You need to know, however, we're ALWAYS wearing our PFD's.

As to distance from the sho 5 meters to 300 meters (max).

I'm a pedal and paddle fan. I have two daughters, one shares my pedal
passion, the other prefers the paddling. Either way, I've got a
partner.

I got a chuckle out of your anecdote about dumping your wife. Many
years ago, I (we?) owned a 21' sailboat. I'd sailed all my life, but my
wife had NEVER been on a sailboat. For the first trip, I decided
(foolish me) to take the boat within 500 meters of the open Pacific at
Nootka Sound (plenty of valor, very little discretion!). Needless to
say, that began the process of selling the sailboat. I've had a hard
time building up "outdoorsy" credibility with my wife since. Bottom
line: never dunk your wife or scare her sh*tless with the open Pacific
in May.

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink says:
=============
Also remember it is not air temp that is the most important, but
water
temp. You mention wearing shorts and sandles. I also read your post
about wetsuits earlier, and wondered how cold the water was. Did you
try swimming in it, to see the effect on you. I read an account one
time about Navy SEALS that drowned while trying to swim just a short
distance to shore...
==============

My budget doesn't allow for a wetsuit yet (Father's Day perhaps... I
keep hinting), so shorts and sandals will have to do. As to swimming
in
the water, not me my friend. However, both daughters are cold-blooded
and have been known to "swim" in January or February, but, I need to
add, NOT serious "I'm swimming for my life"-type swimming. But I take
your point. You need to know, however, we're ALWAYS wearing our
PFD's.

PFD's, are designed to help the Coasties find your ...er, remains! Next
time down at the water, go for a swim with the PFD on. You can't really
swim, and you don't float that well either. Now I speak from the
perspective of weighing in at around 265-280 lbs, stark naked. Not a
pretty thing to see!

I think class III PFD provides for 15 lbs of flotation. That won't even
keep my head up. After a serious thump on the head, while wind surfing,
I wear a helmet most of the time now. Those Biking helmet made out of
styrofoam with a cover, add some flotation, don't weigh to much, and
protect from the incidental thump. One story I read was of a experience
sea kayaker who got caught in the surf zone, and after about 15 rolls
in the rocks, was finally able to wet exit. His helmet was smashed, but
luckily his head survived still attached with some bruises.

I also went for FJ wetsuit with flotation jacket, and an oversized PFD
that I wear over the standard if things get too hairy. I can hear some
out there saying what a wuss, but I figured that 15 lbs of flotation on
a 150 lb person, or 10% was good for them, then I need around 30 lbs
for me. There is never enough flotation.

I am also experimenting with using a boogie board as a self rescue
device. I have heard mixed reports about using paddle floats for self
rescue. Under the conditions that you would likely use a paddle float,
heavy seas, you might find them less than ideal. Something more to play
with when you are out there shaking down the boat, remember to shake
down the crew, and all your gear! That's the great part about boating,
you can get more money tied up in the incidentals than in the boat
itself! :-)

Now try swiming, and you realize even with the flotation, I would have
a hard time making it 300 meters to shore. The Navy SEALs were less
than 50 meters!

I heard the definition of a Boat: A boat is a hole in the water that
you dump money into to fill, and it just gets bigger!

As to distance from the sho 5 meters to 300 meters (max).

I'm a pedal and paddle fan. I have two daughters, one shares my pedal
passion, the other prefers the paddling. Either way, I've got a
partner.

I got a chuckle out of your anecdote about dumping your wife. Many
years ago, I (we?) owned a 21' sailboat. I'd sailed all my life, but
my
wife had NEVER been on a sailboat. For the first trip, I decided
(foolish me) to take the boat within 500 meters of the open Pacific
at
Nootka Sound (plenty of valor, very little discretion!). Needless to
say, that began the process of selling the sailboat. I've had a hard
time building up "outdoorsy" credibility with my wife since. Bottom
line: never dunk your wife or scare her sh*tless with the open
Pacific
in May.

frtzw906

My wife and I went peddaling on our first and almost last date. We
laugh about it yet today, if I get to busy telling her how to do
something. But as you know, I don't really have a problem with that at
all! :)

Whatever you do, keep it fun! TnT

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink says:
=============
Also remember it is not air temp that is the most important, but
water
temp. You mention wearing shorts and sandles. I also read your post
about wetsuits earlier, and wondered how cold the water was. Did you
try swimming in it, to see the effect on you. I read an account one
time about Navy SEALS that drowned while trying to swim just a short
distance to shore...
==============

My budget doesn't allow for a wetsuit yet (Father's Day perhaps... I
keep hinting), so shorts and sandals will have to do. As to swimming
in
....snip...

frtzw906

I meant to mention regarding "wet suits", there is a fellow paddler up
your way that I have conversed with regularly, by the name of Dave
Kruger. I think he is actually down in Columbia River/Portland area,
but closer than Denver for sure and familiar with ocean paddling. Dave
strongly recommends wet suit over dry suits, and is often on Paddlewise
discussion group.

I got mine on Ebay, brand new, for 25% of what I would have paid in
store. I had to wait for the right size to come along, XXXL-Long, but
was worth the wait. Try some on at a dive store to get your size, then
watch eBay, and unless your a paddling oddity like me, you can probably
pick up something for you and your partner for not too much. Remember
you both need one! TnT