On 13 Mar 2005 12:57:34 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:


(snipped)

The process I'd decided on involved opening the front passenger door
and placing a third pool noodle (with a longitudinal slice to the
mid-point) over/along the top of the door frame. The kayak was then
placed on the ground at an angle -- with a vertex just past the right
rear bumper and with the kayak veering just to the right of the open
passenger door. I then lifted the front end of the kayak onto the open
door. With the front end of the kayak secure (OK, it was wobbly) on top
of the front door frame, I then walked to the back of the kayak and
hoisted the back end onto the roof rack. Next, back to the front end,
and lifting the front off the door frame and onto the front of the roof
rack. Voila! Now it was just a matter of tying down the kayak. This
could easily be done by me (a little more height would have been
advantageous). A plastic dairy crate came in handy when tying the boat
to the car.

NOTE: I'M OPEN TO ALTERNATE, BETTER WAYS OF GETTING A 90+ POUND KAYAK
ONTO AN AEROSTAR VAN

Well, if you're willing to take the chance that you'll be driving home
without a door on the side of your van, I suppose your way is okay.
Careless though I am, I like to have my doors stay on the vehicle.

I have a friend with a Suvvie. He had the same problem. There's an
attachment that you can put on your rack that has a nice firm bar
sticking out from the side of the vehicle. You put one end of the
'yak on the bar and lift the other end onto the rack, then move the
first end over to the rack, remove the bar, and you're set. He loves
it. I don't know where he bought it, but I think he just went back to
where he got his rack. If it's expensive (I didn't ask him), you can
probably do something makeshift with a metal or pvc pipe.

Since I'm hard on things and don't care about scratches, I'd just put
one end leaning against the back of the vehicle and start lifting and
shoving the other end. Or get a rope up front and pull. Or any
combination of the above. I don't regard my vehicles (or my boats) as
being up there with the Mona Lisa. They get scratched, so what?

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 03:50:26 -0600, Cyli
wrote:

On 13 Mar 2005 12:57:34 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:

The process I'd decided on involved opening the front passenger door
and placing a third pool noodle (with a longitudinal slice to the
mid-point) over/along the top of the door frame. The kayak was then
placed on the ground at an angle -- with a vertex just past the right
rear bumper and with the kayak veering just to the right of the open
passenger door. I then lifted the front end of the kayak onto the open
door. With the front end of the kayak secure (OK, it was wobbly) on top

NOTE: I'M OPEN TO ALTERNATE, BETTER WAYS OF GETTING A 90+ POUND KAYAK
ONTO AN AEROSTAR VAN

Well, if you're willing to take the chance that you'll be driving home
without a door on the side of your van, I suppose your way is okay.
Careless though I am, I like to have my doors stay on the vehicle.

I have a friend with a Suvvie. He had the same problem. There's an
attachment that you can put on your rack that has a nice firm bar
sticking out from the side of the vehicle. You put one end of the
'yak on the bar and lift the other end onto the rack, then move the
first end over to the rack, remove the bar, and you're set. He loves
it. I don't know where he bought it, but I think he just went back to
where he got his rack. If it's expensive (I didn't ask him), you can
probably do something makeshift with a metal or pvc pipe.

I think it is Thule which has an extension bar that fits inside the
regular crossbar. 547 - Outrigger Lift Assist.

This is used as you describe, by pulling it out, resting one end of
the boat on it, then lifing the other end onto the other crossbar,
then sliding the first end onto the crossbar.

This puts weight only on the rack, and no contact with the vehicle.

They are soon adding a device which will lift the boat onto the roof,
once you place it at waist level.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Cyli says:
=============
Well, if you're willing to take the chance that you'll be driving home
without a door on the side of your van, I suppose your way is okay.
Careless though I am, I like to have my doors stay on the vehicle.
================

Hmmmm... now you've got me worried. Just to check, do you have
expertise re van doors? I don't, hence my worry. I wouldn't have
thought that approx 50 pounds at the mid-point of the door frame would
be too much for the door-to-frame connection to withstand. However, I
haven't a clue. Does anyone else out there have any opinions?

Cheers,
Wilf

On 14 Mar 2005 19:02:10 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:

Cyli says:
=============
Well, if you're willing to take the chance that you'll be driving home
without a door on the side of your van, I suppose your way is okay.
Careless though I am, I like to have my doors stay on the vehicle.
================

Hmmmm... now you've got me worried. Just to check, do you have
expertise re van doors? I don't, hence my worry. I wouldn't have
thought that approx 50 pounds at the mid-point of the door frame would
be too much for the door-to-frame connection to withstand. However, I
haven't a clue. Does anyone else out there have any opinions?

Vehicle doors derive a fair amount of their strength from being
attached to the frame. I would not assume that a weight will not
bother them.

You also need to consider worst case, such as the weight resting on
the outer end of the door (more leverage) as well as a heavier boat,
as well as an impact which multiplies the force of the same item
resting at that point.

Anyone who has seen the Jaws of Life in action would not consider
vehicle doors as being strong.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

On 14 Mar 2005 19:02:10 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:

(snipped)

Hmmmm... now you've got me worried. Just to check, do you have
expertise re van doors? I don't, hence my worry. I wouldn't have
thought that approx 50 pounds at the mid-point of the door frame would
be too much for the door-to-frame connection to withstand. However, I
haven't a clue. Does anyone else out there have any opinions?

Cheers,
Wilf

Only a few damaged car doors. Not by boats, but by kids. The doors
did stay on as long as they were kept locked closed and tied to the
frames if necessary, but that mean exiting through the car window,
which could be undignified, especially in a skirt or dress.

Look at what holds your doors on. In a car it's two hinges. Stress
compounded with leverage is probably not a good thing for hinges. Look
at how many square inches of hinge there are. Look at the door.

You may decide to just lean it against the top and lever it that way
until you cobble up or buy a rack extender. Paint scrapes just need
some repair (or, in my case, some ignoring), but a damaged door is
more expensive in time and money and safety.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

Cyli says:
================
Look at what holds your doors on. In a car it's two hinges. Stress
compounded with leverage is probably not a good thing for hinges. Look
at how many square inches of hinge there are. Look at the door.

You may decide to just lean it against the top and lever it that way
until you cobble up or buy a rack extender. Paint scrapes just need
some repair (or, in my case, some ignoring), but a damaged door is
more expensive in time and money and safety.
=====================

I take your point.

Last yesterday PM I was already at a hardware scouting out the
materials to cobble together a rack extender. My initial thoughts are
electrical conduit -- 2 different diameters. I would clamp (using
something like hose clamps) the larger diameter conduit to the front
roof rack crossbeam. Then, the other piece of conduit would slide in
and out as needed; held in place (either in or out) by a cotter pin or
some such gismo.

My only concerns a will I have enough of the smaller diameter
conduit extended to hold the kayak (approx 24" - but I'll need some
slack as the back of the kayak is pulled around, so let's say 28"). OR
If too much of the smaller conduit is extended, will I still have (a)
"stability" due to the "play" between the two pieces of conduit and (b)
since I'm no electrician, at what point (weight of kayak) can I expect
the conduit to bend?

Any thoughts? Improvements? Recommendations?

Cheers,
Wilf

BCITORGB wrote:
Cyli says:
================
Look at what holds your doors on. In a car it's two hinges. Stress
compounded with leverage is probably not a good thing for hinges.
Look
at how many square inches of hinge there are. Look at the door.

You may decide to just lean it against the top and lever it that way
until you cobble up or buy a rack extender. Paint scrapes just need
some repair (or, in my case, some ignoring), but a damaged door is
more expensive in time and money and safety.
=====================

I take your point.

Last yesterday PM I was already at a hardware scouting out the
materials to cobble together a rack extender. My initial thoughts are
electrical conduit -- 2 different diameters. I would clamp (using
something like hose clamps) the larger diameter conduit to the front
roof rack crossbeam. Then, the other piece of conduit would slide in
and out as needed; held in place (either in or out) by a cotter pin
or
some such gismo.

My only concerns a will I have enough of the smaller diameter
conduit extended to hold the kayak (approx 24" - but I'll need some
slack as the back of the kayak is pulled around, so let's say 28").
OR
If too much of the smaller conduit is extended, will I still have (a)
"stability" due to the "play" between the two pieces of conduit and
(b)
since I'm no electrician, at what point (weight of kayak) can I
expect
the conduit to bend?

Any thoughts? Improvements? Recommendations?

Cheers,
Wilf

Hey Wilf, You never said that I can find, what sort of roof rack do you
have? Is it a Commercial unit? If so, most of them have some sort of
extender system already made. No point in reinventing the wheel.

The problem with electrical conduit is two fold. First it is steel and
would begin to get nasty fast when exposed to salt water. Secondly, it
is designed to bend, which is great in some projects, but you would not
want it to decide to bend when you have the kayak on it and lifting
other end. It would result in a loud crash, and possibly a broken boat
or twisted back as you try to keep the loud crash from happening. Any
of these scenarios being bad.

I think you will also find that the commercial extender systems do not
extend as far as you are thinking like up to 28". So, though they use
extruded, hardened Aluminum, which is amazingly strong, they only go
out like maybe 15". Go out any further, and they don't bend, they break
right of, and you end up with a similar scenario as above.

So it may be time to go back to the drawing board! You might think in
terms of Titanium, and then you begin talking real money, though with
the aircraft industry up there, you may have a cheaper source!

What you need is a material that can take the extended end loading, you
might think of a fiber glass or Kevlar pole, which could be extended
out beyond the side of vehicle, and supported in the middle folcrum on
the roof gutter independent from the existing rack. This pole could
extend across the top of the vehicle and be attached for loading to the
other end of the rack. Think in terms of a teeter-totter, with one end
held down, and the other end sticking out beyond the side of your car.
The right material can carry a significant load.

The right material could even be just a clear of knots, straight
grained piece of Douglas Fir. A hand selected 2x4, from the local
lumber yard. Trees are subject to end loading by the wind, and are
incredibly strong.

When you are done loading your boat, the system will not fold up all
nice on top like a commercial unit would, but you could pull it and
place inside vehicle, or lash along side the kayak on top.

Now your car begins to look like a kayakers car should look. Check out
the pictures on Wilko's website, and you will get a better idea of
where this is headed. :-)

My only other suggestion also, is that when you lift the front end up
on the extension, that you tie a loop of rope around it to act as a
safety to keep it from slipping off the extension as you lift the back
end. this would be especially important if it is windy, or you are
parked on a slope, which could result in the front end sliding off or
deciding to take a lesson in "flying like a kite!" and you are holding
on to the little end of the kite.

I am sort of like a bull, when it comes to loading stuff as you know
(:-), and I just lift my 70 lb boat onto the top of my Caravan. One
time the wind caught the boat as I had it overhead and did a windvane
number on my back. I am re-thinking my loading procedure even as I
write this all to you. It is amazing how you get smarter each time you
try to break something. TnT

Cyli wrote:

On 14 Mar 2005 19:02:10 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:

(snipped)

Hmmmm... now you've got me worried. Just to check, do you have
expertise re van doors? I don't, hence my worry. I wouldn't have
thought that approx 50 pounds at the mid-point of the door frame would
be too much for the door-to-frame connection to withstand. However, I
haven't a clue. Does anyone else out there have any opinions?

Cheers,
Wilf


Only a few damaged car doors. Not by boats, but by kids. The doors
did stay on as long as they were kept locked closed and tied to the
frames if necessary, but that mean exiting through the car window,
which could be undignified, especially in a skirt or dress.

To what kind of forces were these doors subjected?
I know that all the doors on our cars can easily take my full 170 lbs at
the very end of the door frame without any damage to the hinges or parts
and would be totally unconcerned about putting the bow of my double on
top of the door temporarily for loading. My roof rack bars extend out a
few inches so I use that extra space for holding the bow while I walk
back to the stern and pivot it up, but the door frame would seem to work
ok as well if protected from scratches by a towel

Look at what holds your doors on. In a car it's two hinges. Stress
compounded with leverage is probably not a good thing for hinges. Look
at how many square inches of hinge there are. Look at the door.

Yup, those are the things I looked at before putting my weight on the
door. The hinges and attachment points looked like they were made to
handle some serious torque.

"Peter" wrote in message
...

Snip

Yup, those are the things I looked at before putting my weight on the
door. The hinges and attachment points looked like they were made to
handle some serious torque.


Depends on the car. My 21 year old diesel Mercedes - yep! My friend's old
Nissan - Nope! I tore a door just like his off at the scene of an accident
to clear the way to remove the driver (no tools - just pulled up really hard
and then down and a kick or 2. It tore the sheet metal of the door. The
hinge was intact but unattached). You did make me go look at the wife's Jeep
Grand Cherokee. I think I would set a boat on that door, seems plenty strong
enough to hold 40-80 lbs extra.


Ken

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hey Wilf, You never said that I can find, what sort of roof rack do you
have? Is it a Commercial unit? If so, most of them have some sort of
extender system already made. No point in reinventing the wheel.

The problem with electrical conduit is two fold. First it is steel and
would begin to get nasty fast when exposed to salt water. Secondly, it
is designed to bend, which is great in some projects, but you would not
want it to decide to bend when you have the kayak on it and lifting
other end. It would result in a loud crash, and possibly a broken boat
or twisted back as you try to keep the loud crash from happening. Any
of these scenarios being bad.

I think you will also find that the commercial extender systems do not
extend as far as you are thinking like up to 28". So, though they use
extruded, hardened Aluminum, which is amazingly strong, they only go
out like maybe 15". Go out any further, and they don't bend, they break
right of, and you end up with a similar scenario as above.

So it may be time to go back to the drawing board! You might think in
terms of Titanium, and then you begin talking real money, though with
the aircraft industry up there, you may have a cheaper source!

What you need is a material that can take the extended end loading, you
might think of a fiber glass or Kevlar pole, which could be extended
out beyond the side of vehicle, and supported in the middle folcrum on
the roof gutter independent from the existing rack. This pole could
extend across the top of the vehicle and be attached for loading to the
other end of the rack. Think in terms of a teeter-totter, with one end
held down, and the other end sticking out beyond the side of your car.
The right material can carry a significant load.

The right material could even be just a clear of knots, straight
grained piece of Douglas Fir. A hand selected 2x4, from the local
lumber yard. Trees are subject to end loading by the wind, and are
incredibly strong.

When you are done loading your boat, the system will not fold up all
nice on top like a commercial unit would, but you could pull it and
place inside vehicle, or lash along side the kayak on top.

Now your car begins to look like a kayakers car should look. Check out
the pictures on Wilko's website, and you will get a better idea of
where this is headed. :-)

My only other suggestion also, is that when you lift the front end up
on the extension, that you tie a loop of rope around it to act as a
safety to keep it from slipping off the extension as you lift the back
end. this would be especially important if it is windy, or you are
parked on a slope, which could result in the front end sliding off or
deciding to take a lesson in "flying like a kite!" and you are holding
on to the little end of the kite.

I am sort of like a bull, when it comes to loading stuff as you know
(:-), and I just lift my 70 lb boat onto the top of my Caravan. One
time the wind caught the boat as I had it overhead and did a windvane
number on my back. I am re-thinking my loading procedure even as I
write this all to you. It is amazing how you get smarter each time you
try to break something. TnT


How about seeing if you can get a section of Schedule 40 pipe about 3ft long
by 1 1/2 to 2 inches and attach it to the rack (no rust). Then get a good
length of hardwood dowel that fits inside. It could be very loose fitting if
you have 3 ft of it inside the pipe. I'm thinking 1 1/2 inch OD pipe should
work great with a 1 inch or 1 1/4 inch dowel - like you buy to hang the
cloths up in your closet. Toss the dowel inside the car when done (if the
paddles fit, so will it). A dowel this size with 3 ft of support should hold
for most boats. I would think it would hold 100 lbs distributed across the 2
ft or so you have sticking out. -- Stress test away from the car - I don't
want to get blamed for a paint job after it breaks ;

The beauty of using wood is you should hear it start to fail before it lets
go. Unlike the conduit which may just fold-up without a sound.

Ken

No Spam wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hey Wilf, You never said that I can find, what sort of roof rack do
you
have? Is it a Commercial unit? If so, most of them have some sort
of
extender system already made. No point in reinventing the wheel.

The problem with electrical conduit is two fold. First it is steel
and
would begin to get nasty fast when exposed to salt water. Secondly,
it
is designed to bend, which is great in some projects, but you would
not
want it to decide to bend when you have the kayak on it and lifting
other end. It would result in a loud crash, and possibly a broken
boat
or twisted back as you try to keep the loud crash from happening.
Any
of these scenarios being bad.

I think you will also find that the commercial extender systems do
not
extend as far as you are thinking like up to 28". So, though they
use
extruded, hardened Aluminum, which is amazingly strong, they only
go
out like maybe 15". Go out any further, and they don't bend, they
break
right of, and you end up with a similar scenario as above.

So it may be time to go back to the drawing board! You might think
in
terms of Titanium, and then you begin talking real money, though
with
the aircraft industry up there, you may have a cheaper source!

What you need is a material that can take the extended end loading,
you
might think of a fiber glass or Kevlar pole, which could be
extended
out beyond the side of vehicle, and supported in the middle folcrum
on
the roof gutter independent from the existing rack. This pole could
extend across the top of the vehicle and be attached for loading to
the
other end of the rack. Think in terms of a teeter-totter, with one
end
held down, and the other end sticking out beyond the side of your
car.
The right material can carry a significant load.

The right material could even be just a clear of knots, straight
grained piece of Douglas Fir. A hand selected 2x4, from the local
lumber yard. Trees are subject to end loading by the wind, and are
incredibly strong.

When you are done loading your boat, the system will not fold up
all
nice on top like a commercial unit would, but you could pull it and
place inside vehicle, or lash along side the kayak on top.

Now your car begins to look like a kayakers car should look. Check
out
the pictures on Wilko's website, and you will get a better idea of
where this is headed. :-)

My only other suggestion also, is that when you lift the front end
up
on the extension, that you tie a loop of rope around it to act as a
safety to keep it from slipping off the extension as you lift the
back
end. this would be especially important if it is windy, or you are
parked on a slope, which could result in the front end sliding off
or
deciding to take a lesson in "flying like a kite!" and you are
holding
on to the little end of the kite.

I am sort of like a bull, when it comes to loading stuff as you
know
(:-), and I just lift my 70 lb boat onto the top of my Caravan. One
time the wind caught the boat as I had it overhead and did a
windvane
number on my back. I am re-thinking my loading procedure even as I
write this all to you. It is amazing how you get smarter each time
you
try to break something. TnT


How about seeing if you can get a section of Schedule 40 pipe about
3ft long
by 1 1/2 to 2 inches and attach it to the rack (no rust). Then get a
good
length of hardwood dowel that fits inside. It could be very loose
fitting if
you have 3 ft of it inside the pipe. I'm thinking 1 1/2 inch OD pipe
should
work great with a 1 inch or 1 1/4 inch dowel - like you buy to hang
the
cloths up in your closet. Toss the dowel inside the car when done (if
the
paddles fit, so will it). A dowel this size with 3 ft of support
should hold
for most boats. I would think it would hold 100 lbs distributed
across the 2
ft or so you have sticking out. -- Stress test away from the car - I
don't
want to get blamed for a paint job after it breaks ;

The beauty of using wood is you should hear it start to fail before
it lets
go. Unlike the conduit which may just fold-up without a sound.

Ken

Ken, the only thing I would question, is that where the dowel comes out
of the pipe, would represent a sheer line. All the load on the extended
dowel would be concentrated at the sheer line as a breaking force. You
would not be able to take advantage really of the flex of the dowel
inside the tube, to dissipate the energy as a flexing force, and it
would tend to break at that sheer line.

You are right on though about hearing the dowel break.

Another function of the safety line that I recommended, is that if the
extension collapses, the boat would not fall clear to the ground.
Considering the car paint though, it might be equally important to use
some cushions in strategic spots in case the boat fell. You could just
hang a long noodle on the side of the car to take the bang.

or like Cyli indicated, you just don't worry about the paint! :) TnT

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...
Snip

Ken, the only thing I would question, is that where the dowel comes out
of the pipe, would represent a sheer line. All the load on the extended
dowel would be concentrated at the sheer line as a breaking force. You
would not be able to take advantage really of the flex of the dowel
inside the tube, to dissipate the energy as a flexing force, and it
would tend to break at that sheer line.

You are right on though about hearing the dowel break.

Another function of the safety line that I recommended, is that if the
extension collapses, the boat would not fall clear to the ground.
Considering the car paint though, it might be equally important to use
some cushions in strategic spots in case the boat fell. You could just
hang a long noodle on the side of the car to take the bang.

or like Cyli indicated, you just don't worry about the paint! :) TnT


You are correct about the shear at the point of entry but I think a hardwood
dowel of this size will take this force without complaint. My uncle used to
hang an old wood extension ladder on dowel pegs and it took 2 people to lift
that thing down. The flex in the exposed dowel would take the force of the
jolt of rough handling of the boat though. I did some google searching but
cannot find the shear strength of a dowel but I would guess that a 1 inch
hardwood dowel would take at least 500 pounds of pure shear force before it
would break. I have a 1 1/2 inch dowel here and I just stood on the end of
it with the other end wedged under my work bench -- yep lifted the bench
right up - the dowel flexed a little but easily handled me 275 lbs out about
a foot from the support.

Ken

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:50:11 -0800, Peter
wrote:

Cyli wrote:

On 14 Mar 2005 19:02:10 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:

(snipped)

Hmmmm... now you've got me worried. Just to check, do you have
expertise re van doors? I don't, hence my worry. I wouldn't have
thought that approx 50 pounds at the mid-point of the door frame would
be too much for the door-to-frame connection to withstand. However, I
haven't a clue. Does anyone else out there have any opinions?

Cheers,
Wilf


Only a few damaged car doors. Not by boats, but by kids. The doors
did stay on as long as they were kept locked closed and tied to the
frames if necessary, but that mean exiting through the car window,
which could be undignified, especially in a skirt or dress.

To what kind of forces were these doors subjected?

Damfino. It was kids. They stutter and stammer and wobble when
questioned. They evade and say that they don't know or XXX did it.
In one case, the car was that way when the kid bought it.

All 3 on inexpensive American mid sized cars built in the 60s to 80s.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

No Spam wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...
Snip

Ken, the only thing I would question, is that where the dowel comes
out
of the pipe, would represent a sheer line. All the load on the
extended
dowel would be concentrated at the sheer line as a breaking force.
You
would not be able to take advantage really of the flex of the dowel
inside the tube, to dissipate the energy as a flexing force, and it
would tend to break at that sheer line.

You are right on though about hearing the dowel break.

Another function of the safety line that I recommended, is that if
the
extension collapses, the boat would not fall clear to the ground.
Considering the car paint though, it might be equally important to
use
some cushions in strategic spots in case the boat fell. You could
just
hang a long noodle on the side of the car to take the bang.

or like Cyli indicated, you just don't worry about the paint! :)
TnT


You are correct about the shear at the point of entry but I think a
hardwood
dowel of this size will take this force without complaint. My uncle
used to
hang an old wood extension ladder on dowel pegs and it took 2 people
to lift
that thing down. The flex in the exposed dowel would take the force
of the
jolt of rough handling of the boat though. I did some google
searching but
cannot find the shear strength of a dowel but I would guess that a 1
inch
hardwood dowel would take at least 500 pounds of pure shear force
before it
would break. I have a 1 1/2 inch dowel here and I just stood on the
end of
it with the other end wedged under my work bench -- yep lifted the
bench
right up - the dowel flexed a little but easily handled me 275 lbs
out about
a foot from the support.

Ken

Ken, Wilf, is talking about extending the dowel out 28", see what
loading the dowel breaks under now. This will prevent Wilf from falling
off his workbench, and you seemed more inclined to do this sort of
stuff! :) I mean testing, not falling off your bench! TnT

Hey, you guys have been great! I still don't have my solution, but I
think we're getting there.

In review, my own particulars a a '94 Ford Aerostar where dents and
scratches are not an issue (Hell! It's an Aerostar! Was there ever a
cheaper van made?!), no commercial roof rack, just the thing that all
Aerostars come with, and a short (5'7"), stocky guy who can carry and
horizontal lift the 90 pound kayak to a height of about 4.5' (I've not
tried clean-and-jerk... maybe after a few beer). After just two trips,
I've just about perfected (and really like) the "front end on the front
door" maneuver. BUT, Cyli's got me worried and thinking alternatives.

I think Tink has a point re the conduit; after all, it was made to be
bent. I went to the hardware store this morning and tried a bit of
pressure on the pipe and I was able to put a bit of a bend on it
without much effort. I then thought of going one dimension larger for
each of the pipes (greater diameter = more difficult to bend, right?).
I would have purchased right away had it not been for the price. I need
to find me an electrical shop that has "ends" (about 4-6 feet worth of
ends) kicking about.

As an alternative (and it was something one of you said, I'm sure), I
could go very crude and very elemental (if the material strength is up
to the task). Tell me what you think...

Two approx 7' pieces of 1X4. Place one lengthwise, on the left-hand
side of the van, under both roof rack crossbeams. Then, place the other
1X4 under, and at 90 degrees to the first 1X4, with about 3' jutting
out over the right-hand side of the van for me to place the kayak on
(this piece would be secured, with rope, to the crossbeam to ensure it
doesn't slip as the weight of the boat is placed on it).

Why 1X4? Because nothing thicker than 1" will fit under the crossbeams
and still allow another timber to be placed under it.

Question to all you bright guys: will the 1X4 be strong enough to hold
the kayak?

Cheers,
Wilf

Tink says:
===========
Ken, Wilf, is talking about extending the dowel out 28", see what
loading the dowel breaks under now. This will prevent Wilf from falling
off his workbench, and you seemed more inclined to do this sort of
stuff! :) I mean testing, not falling off your bench! TnT
==============

I'm with you on this Tink -- as far as a 275 pound guy is concerned.
The question is, as you point out, what happens when the dowel is
extended out 28" and approx 50 pounds is placed essentially at the 14"
mark (although, what with twisting and turning, the full 50 pounds
could, momentarily anyway, be way out there at the 28" mark)?

Tink, you mentioned that you're an electrician: do you think 50 pounds
could bend the larger diameter conduit?

Cheers,
Wilf

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink says:
===========
Ken, Wilf, is talking about extending the dowel out 28", see what
loading the dowel breaks under now. This will prevent Wilf from
falling
off his workbench, and you seemed more inclined to do this sort of
stuff! :) I mean testing, not falling off your bench! TnT
==============

I'm with you on this Tink -- as far as a 275 pound guy is concerned.
The question is, as you point out, what happens when the dowel is
extended out 28" and approx 50 pounds is placed essentially at the
14"
mark (although, what with twisting and turning, the full 50 pounds
could, momentarily anyway, be way out there at the 28" mark)?

Tink, you mentioned that you're an electrician: do you think 50
pounds
could bend the larger diameter conduit?

Cheers,
Wilf

Wilf, you say you are with me on this, do mean the testing, or falling
off the workbench? :)

I am not sure what you mean by large diameter. We bend conduit all the
time with bending tools up to 1". Beyond that we have hydralic benders.
This is mainly to provide a standard radius that the wire can be pulled
through inside. Otherwise if you were to take the conduit, and bend it
over a sharp edge, as soon as the radius of the tube is broken, the
tube will easily collapse. There is a certain structural strength to
the tube, but once it is compromised, the tube material is pretty soft
and malleable.

One person that you might check with, is Michael Daly. Recently I saw
him post, that he is a structural engineer. He could probably give some
good suggestions on real data base. I mostly figure stuff off the seat
of my pants, hence the Tinker. My name is a double or triple entendo
(sp)! Given enough time, as a practical engineer, I can usually cobble
something together! Though it is the sort of stuff you might see on the
Red/Green Show.

I guess one thing I might ask you though, is how did you come up with
the 28" number? Also is your rack a commercial unit, or is it standard
Ford issue on Aerostar?

As you load the kayak, can you come in at a larger angle to get the bow
more up on the vehicle to start. That way the extension would not need
to be so long. You would then be standing further out from the vehicle
as you lift the stern, lift it higher so that the front does not get
pivoted off the front rack, and swing the stern up on the rear rack.

Also did you understand about the safety line, which should help keep
the bow in place. TnT

Tinkerntom wrote:
BCITORGB wrote:
Tink says:
===========
Ken, Wilf, is talking about extending the dowel out 28", see what
loading the dowel breaks under now. This will prevent Wilf from
falling
off his workbench, and you seemed more inclined to do this sort of
stuff! :) I mean testing, not falling off your bench! TnT
==============

I'm with you on this Tink -- as far as a 275 pound guy is
concerned.
The question is, as you point out, what happens when the dowel is
extended out 28" and approx 50 pounds is placed essentially at the
14"
mark (although, what with twisting and turning, the full 50 pounds
could, momentarily anyway, be way out there at the 28" mark)?

Tink, you mentioned that you're an electrician: do you think 50
pounds
could bend the larger diameter conduit?

Cheers,
Wilf

Wilf, you say you are with me on this, do mean the testing, or
falling
off the workbench? :)

I am not sure what you mean by large diameter. We bend conduit all
the
time with bending tools up to 1". Beyond that we have hydralic
benders.
This is mainly to provide a standard radius that the wire can be
pulled
through inside. Otherwise if you were to take the conduit, and bend
it
over a sharp edge, as soon as the radius of the tube is broken, the
tube will easily collapse. There is a certain structural strength to
the tube, but once it is compromised, the tube material is pretty
soft
and malleable.

One person that you might check with, is Michael Daly. Recently I saw
him post, that he is a structural engineer. He could probably give
some
good suggestions on real data base. I mostly figure stuff off the
seat
of my pants, hence the Tinker. My name is a double or triple entendo
(sp)! Given enough time, as a practical engineer, I can usually
cobble
something together! Though it is the sort of stuff you might see on
the
Red/Green Show.

I guess one thing I might ask you though, is how did you come up with
the 28" number? Also is your rack a commercial unit, or is it
standard
Ford issue on Aerostar?

As you load the kayak, can you come in at a larger angle to get the
bow
more up on the vehicle to start. That way the extension would not
need
to be so long. You would then be standing further out from the
vehicle
as you lift the stern, lift it higher so that the front does not get
pivoted off the front rack, and swing the stern up on the rear rack.

Also did you understand about the safety line, which should help keep
the bow in place. TnT

Sorry Wilf, I answered your second post before I saw the first, will
reread and get back to you later, TnT

Tink says:
=============
I am not sure what you mean by large diameter. We bend conduit all the
time with bending tools up to 1".
=================

Right, but even to bend 1" pipe, surely you use a "bending device" (my
family would disown me for that... both father and brother are
electricians and I spent a few summers as an electrician's helper, but
am a complete nerd about practical matters... so, I don't recall what
that fulcrum thingy is called). Anyway, I'm guessing that the larger
diameter pipes cannot be bent, readily, without mechanical assistance.
Hence my thought that, if a human can't readily bend it, a 100 pound
kayak is not likely to bend it either (even at 50 pounds times, let's
say, 30 inches). But, as I say, I'm not the electrician, I'm the geek.

Tink says:
================
My name is a double or triple entendo
(sp)! Given enough time, as a practical engineer, I can usually cobble
something together! Though it is the sort of stuff you might see on the
Red/Green Show.
===========

And you likely thought ALL Canadians were like Red Green, eh? GRIN

Cheers,
Wilf

BCITORGB wrote:
Hey, you guys have been great! I still don't have my solution, but I
think we're getting there.

In review, my own particulars a a '94 Ford Aerostar where dents
and
scratches are not an issue (Hell! It's an Aerostar! Was there ever a
cheaper van made?!), no commercial roof rack, just the thing that all
Aerostars come with, and a short (5'7"), stocky guy who can carry and
horizontal lift the 90 pound kayak to a height of about 4.5' (I've
not
tried clean-and-jerk... maybe after a few beer). After just two
trips,
I've just about perfected (and really like) the "front end on the
front
door" maneuver. BUT, Cyli's got me worried and thinking alternatives.

I think Tink has a point re the conduit; after all, it was made to be
bent. I went to the hardware store this morning and tried a bit of
pressure on the pipe and I was able to put a bit of a bend on it
without much effort. I then thought of going one dimension larger for
each of the pipes (greater diameter = more difficult to bend,
right?).
I would have purchased right away had it not been for the price. I
need
to find me an electrical shop that has "ends" (about 4-6 feet worth
of
ends) kicking about.

As an alternative (and it was something one of you said, I'm sure), I
could go very crude and very elemental (if the material strength is
up
to the task). Tell me what you think...

Two approx 7' pieces of 1X4. Place one lengthwise, on the left-hand
side of the van, under both roof rack crossbeams. Then, place the
other
1X4 under, and at 90 degrees to the first 1X4, with about 3' jutting
out over the right-hand side of the van for me to place the kayak on
(this piece would be secured, with rope, to the crossbeam to ensure
it
doesn't slip as the weight of the boat is placed on it).

Why 1X4? Because nothing thicker than 1" will fit under the
crossbeams
and still allow another timber to be placed under it.

Question to all you bright guys: will the 1X4 be strong enough to
hold
the kayak?

Cheers,
Wilf

I think you are right, we are getting there.

Starting with your roof rack, it is held on to the top of the van with
sheet metal screws, and kf you look carefully you will find a "Do Not
Exceed" label, which refers to the Max weight the rack can support.
Most are in the range of 100 lbs. This is somewhat misleading because
as you are driving down the road you could easily have several hundred
pounds of wind resistance trying to take the rack right off the top of
the car.

This happens every year here, we will read an article in the news about
someone losing their roof rack with Kayaks still attached, as they are
driving down the road. Happens with skis as well, and typically skis
would weigh much less than 100 lbs. For the record, put your skis on
the rack with them pointing to the rear. Again typically, it is when
the rack gets hit by a gust of wind as you are driving down the
highway, that the load limit will be exceded. The carnage that results
is not pretty, especially if it is your kayak, vehicle, or friends in
the following car that meet your flying load up close and personal.

There was a recent thread here or on RBP about how to properly tie your
boat on top of car. Basically, you need to use lines tied to bow and
stern, tied to the car structure proper. Like a hitch in back, the
front can be more problematic. Anyway check the thread, riverman had
some good experience recommedations.

Now as far as the need for the extension, it becomes clearer now. The
standard rack is inset in from the edge of the roof. Also being 57"
precludes you just lifting the boat on top of van. I am 74", and take
some things for granted. But then you can get into a smaller boat and
be comfortable. I get into my Overflow, which is one of the bigger WW
boats, and it becomes a squirt boat or submarine. To say nothing about
the fact that my feet are all scrunched up. I was reading that Wilko is
80" if I read it right, so I don't know how he does it. Will have to
ask him.

Anyway, back to your rack, I would look into using a 2x4, U-bolted on
top of the existing rack to the side runners, and allow the 2x4 to
extend out beyond the side of the van. You could also use 3/4 in
galvanized pipe that would resist the salt water better. The ends would
be threaded so that you can install end caps. You would not have either
of these extending beyond the side of the van further than 4". But if
they extended that far, you may be able to hook the end of the boat on
that. If not you may still have to work on an extention, but this would
give you a base to mount the extention on. See what you think of this,
TnT

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink says:
=============
I am not sure what you mean by large diameter. We bend conduit all
the
time with bending tools up to 1".
=================

Right, but even to bend 1" pipe, surely you use a "bending device"
(my
family would disown me for that... both father and brother are
electricians and I spent a few summers as an electrician's helper,
but
am a complete nerd about practical matters... so, I don't recall what
that fulcrum thingy is called). Anyway, I'm guessing that the larger
diameter pipes cannot be bent, readily, without mechanical
assistance.
Hence my thought that, if a human can't readily bend it, a 100 pound
kayak is not likely to bend it either (even at 50 pounds times, let's
say, 30 inches). But, as I say, I'm not the electrician, I'm the
geek.

Tink says:
================
My name is a double or triple entendo
(sp)! Given enough time, as a practical engineer, I can usually
cobble
something together! Though it is the sort of stuff you might see on
the
Red/Green Show.
===========

And you likely thought ALL Canadians were like Red Green, eh? GRIN

Cheers,
Wilf

And all US are like Archie!

I would suggest that you take a piece of pipe, extend it out the
desired distance from edge of workbench, attach stationary end, and
then start loading the extended end with weights to see when it bends.

I know that if there was a piece of conduit sticking out from the side
of a building, 10 stories up, I would not trust it to step out on it
with even a portion of my weight. Now obviously this is not the same,
but you could still get hurt if the extension collapsed and you caught
the full weight of the boat.

Your 1x4 would probably not be strong enough, but again you can test
it.


TnT

KMAN wrote:
in article ,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/16/05 1:18 AM:


BCITORGB wrote:
Tink says:
=============
I am not sure what you mean by large diameter. We bend conduit all
the
time with bending tools up to 1".
=================

Right, but even to bend 1" pipe, surely you use a "bending device"
(my
family would disown me for that... both father and brother are
electricians and I spent a few summers as an electrician's helper,
but
am a complete nerd about practical matters... so, I don't recall
what
that fulcrum thingy is called). Anyway, I'm guessing that the
larger
diameter pipes cannot be bent, readily, without mechanical
assistance.
Hence my thought that, if a human can't readily bend it, a 100
pound
kayak is not likely to bend it either (even at 50 pounds times,
let's
say, 30 inches). But, as I say, I'm not the electrician, I'm the
geek.

Tink says:
================
My name is a double or triple entendo
(sp)! Given enough time, as a practical engineer, I can usually
cobble
something together! Though it is the sort of stuff you might see
on
the
Red/Green Show.
===========

And you likely thought ALL Canadians were like Red Green, eh?
GRIN

Cheers,
Wilf

And all US are like Archie!

More like Moose!

We have a few of them around here, but I understand that there are a
lot more up there. What are they like? TnT

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...

No Spam wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...
Snip

Ken, the only thing I would question, is that where the dowel comes
out
of the pipe, would represent a sheer line. All the load on the
extended
dowel would be concentrated at the sheer line as a breaking force.
You
would not be able to take advantage really of the flex of the dowel
inside the tube, to dissipate the energy as a flexing force, and it
would tend to break at that sheer line.

You are right on though about hearing the dowel break.

Another function of the safety line that I recommended, is that if
the
extension collapses, the boat would not fall clear to the ground.
Considering the car paint though, it might be equally important to
use
some cushions in strategic spots in case the boat fell. You could
just
hang a long noodle on the side of the car to take the bang.

or like Cyli indicated, you just don't worry about the paint! :)
TnT


You are correct about the shear at the point of entry but I think a
hardwood
dowel of this size will take this force without complaint. My uncle
used to
hang an old wood extension ladder on dowel pegs and it took 2 people
to lift
that thing down. The flex in the exposed dowel would take the force
of the
jolt of rough handling of the boat though. I did some google
searching but
cannot find the shear strength of a dowel but I would guess that a 1
inch
hardwood dowel would take at least 500 pounds of pure shear force
before it
would break. I have a 1 1/2 inch dowel here and I just stood on the
end of
it with the other end wedged under my work bench -- yep lifted the
bench
right up - the dowel flexed a little but easily handled me 275 lbs
out about
a foot from the support.

Ken

Ken, Wilf, is talking about extending the dowel out 28", see what
loading the dowel breaks under now. This will prevent Wilf from falling
off his workbench, and you seemed more inclined to do this sort of
stuff! :) I mean testing, not falling off your bench! TnT


Unfortunately I don't have enough dowel to anchor it and have 28 inches left
over or I would gladly give it a try - I've ended up on my backside in the
name of learning before. I think it would break if I were to put my full
weight at 28 inches out, but that is not what we are talking about when we
are loading a boat. You will have much less than half my weight and it will
be more distributed. At any rate I think the schedule 40 pipe on the car is
the ticket because it will not rust and it should hold just fine. The only
thing to do now is find something that fits inside it that will take the
weight. Get some conduit and some dowel and anything else that is lying
around and see what happens. Good luck.

Ken

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...

KMAN wrote:
in article ,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/16/05 1:18 AM:


BCITORGB wrote:
Tink says:
=============
I am not sure what you mean by large diameter. We bend conduit all
the
time with bending tools up to 1".
=================

Right, but even to bend 1" pipe, surely you use a "bending device"
(my
family would disown me for that... both father and brother are
electricians and I spent a few summers as an electrician's helper,
but
am a complete nerd about practical matters... so, I don't recall
what
that fulcrum thingy is called). Anyway, I'm guessing that the
larger
diameter pipes cannot be bent, readily, without mechanical
assistance.
Hence my thought that, if a human can't readily bend it, a 100
pound
kayak is not likely to bend it either (even at 50 pounds times,
let's
say, 30 inches). But, as I say, I'm not the electrician, I'm the
geek.

Tink says:
================
My name is a double or triple entendo
(sp)! Given enough time, as a practical engineer, I can usually
cobble
something together! Though it is the sort of stuff you might see
on
the
Red/Green Show.
===========

And you likely thought ALL Canadians were like Red Green, eh?
GRIN

Cheers,
Wilf

And all US are like Archie!

More like Moose!

We have a few of them around here, but I understand that there are a
lot more up there. What are they like? TnT

I'm talking Archie...Moose...and in your case, Jughead. Go back to your
Bunker.

Again, thanks to everyone for all your input.

While in the shower this morning, I had a flash of brilliance as my
father's words came back to me: "avoid moving parts whenever possible
and shun automation!". While this little project hardly concerns
automation, and not much in the way of moving parts, the general gist
of his admonition was KISS.

So, along those lines, I started thinking simple (and crude). Here's
what I'm going to try. Take a 8'-2X4 and place it across the front of
the van roof, by the front roofrack crossbar. Now lash it into place
along the crossbar. Now I should have about 3.5' of 2X4 jutting out
past the side of the van. While I know I'm an idiot in terms of things
practical and mechanical, but I can't see a 2X4 not holding up this
kayak. What do you guys think?

Then, when I'm done, the 2X4 stays up on the rack next to the kayak.

Are there any flaws in this crude version of an extension bar?

Cheers,
Wilf
==================

Tink, thanks for the 2X4 tip and the U-bolts. I read this after I
posted my crude 2X4 solution. Your U-boly idea would likely be better
(more rigid) than my idea of lashing the 2X4. I'll hunt around the
hardware store for the ingredients for this stew.

Thanks,
Wilf

On 16 Mar 2005 09:07:17 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:

So, along those lines, I started thinking simple (and crude). Here's
what I'm going to try. Take a 8'-2X4 and place it across the front of
the van roof, by the front roofrack crossbar. Now lash it into place
along the crossbar. Now I should have about 3.5' of 2X4 jutting out
past the side of the van. While I know I'm an idiot in terms of things
practical and mechanical, but I can't see a 2X4 not holding up this
kayak. What do you guys think?

Then, when I'm done, the 2X4 stays up on the rack next to the kayak.

Are there any flaws in this crude version of an extension bar?

Depends on the state, but generally it is not legal to drive with
something on the roof which extends beyond the footprint of the car.

You would need to slide the 2x4 back onto the roof when loaded.

Note that this also means that it is not legal to put 78" bars on the
top of your compact car.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Gary says:
===============
Depends on the state, but generally it is not legal to drive with
something on the roof which extends beyond the footprint of the car.

You would need to slide the 2x4 back onto the roof when loaded.
===================

ROTFL! No, here in Canada we get to have all sorts of things jutting
out past the car's footprint. It might have something to do with our
British heritage: jousting and all, don't you know.... GRIN....

Yes, of course the 2X4 with be fastened length-wise.

Cheers,
Wilf
===============

Back to my original "dead weight" question.

I tried paddling solo with 24 liters of water as dead weight in the
forward cockpit. The conditions were ideal for this experiment, and I
can report complete success. The rudder on the Amaruk is AWESOME.
Further, I did not feel that the bow was riding too high.

Trip Report:
C:\My Web Sites\pedalpaddleinbc\k050314buntzen.htm

Cheers, and thanks for the help
Wilf

Trip Report:
http://ca.geocities.com/pedalpaddlei...314buntzen.htm

Sorry for the earlier reference to my harddrive...

Wilf

On 15-Mar-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

extruded, hardened Aluminum,
[...]
terms of Titanium,
[...]
might think of a fiber glass or Kevlar pole
[...]
grained piece of Douglas Fir.

Old wood hockey stick. Ash - just cut to length.

Mike

On 16-Mar-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Anyway, back to your rack, I would look into using a 2x4, U-bolted on
top of the existing rack to the side runners, and allow the 2x4 to

Depending on the roof curvature, you might need a 2x6, but - don't
put the wood on the existing rack. Cut one side of the 2x6 to
match the curvature of the roof, cover with a layer of thin carpet
or strong, closed-cell foam and then rest it on the roof directly.
U-bolt it to the rack crossbar. Make one for each of the front
and rear crossbars.

This way, the wood carries the load directly to the roof and the
existing cheap factory rack only holds it in place. You can
attach almost anything to the 2x6 to tie down canoes, kayaks
etc.

Don't have the wood extending past the side of the vehicle any
more than legal. Use a piece of old wood hockey stick to make
an extender and use a couple of long bolts to stick into holes
in the 2x6 to temporarily hold it in place.

Use cedar for the 2x6 and you don't have to finish it. No
problems with rot or insect damage for years.

Mike

On 16-Mar-2005, "BCITORGB" wrote:

No, here in Canada we get to have all sorts of things jutting
out past the car's footprint.

Better double check that - in Ontario you can't and you also have
to tie down the bow and stern of a canoe/kayak if it extends
over the roof.

Mike

On 16-Mar-2005, "No Spam" wrote:

At any rate I think the schedule 40 pipe on the car is
the ticket because it will not rust and it should hold just fine.

Sched 40 can rust if it is steel. You'd have to get sched 40 in stainless
if you don't want rust. Sched 40 specifies the dimensions, not the material.

Mike

BCITORGB wrote:
Gary says:
===============
Depends on the state, but generally it is not legal to drive with
something on the roof which extends beyond the footprint of the car.

You would need to slide the 2x4 back onto the roof when loaded.
===================

ROTFL! No, here in Canada we get to have all sorts of things jutting
out past the car's footprint. It might have something to do with our
British heritage: jousting and all, don't you know.... GRIN....

Yes, of course the 2X4 with be fastened length-wise.

Cheers,
Wilf
===============

See, I told you Red Green would be proud of you, and should have you on
his show as a guest inventor! Basically what I had in mind, especially
the shower part. Some say my ideas are all wet, and I say, they should
be. I came up with them in the shower!

What you might think in terms of, is use a shorter 2x4, slightly wider
than the existing rack, up to the width of the van, that is lashed down
to the existing rack. All your foam support will be attached to this.
Use one of these on the front and back of the van, so that you could
use the following extender to load from front or back, and from either
side of vehicle. You will eventually find yourself up against a tree or
a drop off or cliff, where you can not always load/unload from the same
side.

Then use a full eight footer that will just be used temporarily to load
the Kayak. This would be lashed along side and temporarily to the
shorter 2x4. The shorter 2x4 would give you clearance for the longer
one to fit under the hull of the boat when you lift it into place. Then
you will be able to remove the longer 2x4, and tie along side hull for
transport, as you already thought of.

Now if you want to really get with this part of the program, actually
carry 2 of these longer 2x4, one extended in front, and one in back,
that can be used as a frame to support a privacy tarp along side your
vehicle. This way, you could have a little changing room even in a busy
parking lot, or road side, and if you put a tarp over the top you would
have privacy from low flying planes, and some rain shelter as well.
Besides looking at that pile of foam, you are definitely getting the
hang of getting your van to blend into a parking lot of boater
vehicles!:)

You would normally put this shelter alongside the sliding door side of
the van, so that you can access the van interior. This is especially
important when you get your wet suit on Fathers Day, that you will want
to put it on at the launch site, and don't want everyone seeing the
short, plump, old guy in a Speedo getting in to or out of the wetsuit.
Once you get it on, you look pretty cool, like Jacque! The gymnastics
of donning a wetsuit, can be intrigueing to say the least, and rate up
there with some Olympic sports, or at least what goes on at some local
strip joints, and is equally interesting to watch! And if this is not
ugly enough, it would certainly destroy the mystery of what is worn
under the kilt!

This would also give you a small shower area, if you want to wash salt
off when you get back to the van, before you head home. Makes that trip
more enjoyable for everyone, if it is very long. You can carry a sun
shower in the car, or several gallons of fresh water, get a floor pan
to stand in, or just a pair of flip-flops. Your daughters and wife, may
especially appreciate this small bit of civilization, after a long
paddle trip, and who knows what other great ideas you will come up with
while in the shower, maybe a ho****er tank on top of the van!:)

This also gives you a place to quickly store your kayak, if you are out
tripping and don't want to leave it on the shore, or go to the trouble
of actually tying it on the vehicle. I ran into the situation whild
camping, where the authorities would not allow any boat to stay at
waters edge overnight. All boats had to be reloaded on boat trailer
every night, and relaunched every AM. This included smaller roof
mounted craft. Even though I did not have to use the boat ramp, this
policy may have had more to do with the $6.00 boat ramp fee they
charged everytime the bigger boats had to launch using it. What a money
maker that was for someone!

Anyway, you are definitely getting the hang of this. Now if we can get
you to fall off your workbench a few more times, landing of course on
your head, you will be ready for Red Green! TnT

Michael says:
===============
Depending on the roof curvature, you might need a 2x6, but - don't
put the wood on the existing rack. Cut one side of the 2x6 to
match the curvature of the roof, cover with a layer of thin carpet
or strong, closed-cell foam and then rest it on the roof directly.
U-bolt it to the rack crossbar. Make one for each of the front
and rear crossbars.
================

WOW! Fantastic ideas.

THNX
Wilf

Mike thinks:
==============
Better double check that - in Ontario you can't and you also have
to tie down the bow and stern of a canoe/kayak if it extends
over the roof.
==============

I was just kidding Gary who, I guess, had visions of me driving down
the highway with four feet of 2X4 sweeping people off the sidewalks.
LOL

We're crazy out here in BC, but not that loony.

Cheers,
Wilf
========

On 16 Mar 2005 14:16:02 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:

Mike thinks:
==============
Better double check that - in Ontario you can't and you also have
to tie down the bow and stern of a canoe/kayak if it extends
over the roof.
==============

I was just kidding Gary who, I guess, had visions of me driving down
the highway with four feet of 2X4 sweeping people off the sidewalks.
LOL

We're crazy out here in BC, but not that loony.

If you had seen some of the overwidth boat carrying setups that I have
seen, you would understand that it is not just a vision.

Not all share your level of sanity.

The damn things are dangerous even when parked, for people trying to
walk by. On city streets, they could be lethal.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

BCITORGB wrote:
Michael says:
===============
Depending on the roof curvature, you might need a 2x6, but - don't
put the wood on the existing rack. Cut one side of the 2x6 to
match the curvature of the roof, cover with a layer of thin carpet
or strong, closed-cell foam and then rest it on the roof directly.
U-bolt it to the rack crossbar. Make one for each of the front
and rear crossbars.
================

WOW! Fantastic ideas.

THNX
Wilf

See, I knew Michael would have some good Ideas, especially the hockey
stick. You being into field hockey, might know where to find some of
those. We don't have so much ash down here. Cedar is also good idea!

The only consideration about fitting the 2x6 to the curve of the roof,
is that the roof supports inside the body run across the width of the
van. You would want to locate the 2x6 directly on one of these,
otherwise it would just be the skin of the van supporting the load. The
skin on these newer vehicles is so thin, it will easily bend, and you
will end up with a van with a concave roof. Not good where it rains a
lot!

Contrary to Michaels suggestion, I would still recommend that the
logitudinal runners of the existing stock rack, support the crossmember
whether 2x4 or 2x6. These longitudinal runners span from one body
support to another, and would spread out the weight of the load instead
of concentrating it in just one spot, or one body support. If the
existing rack collapsed under the load, you can more easily replace or
repair the rack, than straighten out the concave roof. Though I did
know one character that would regularly get inside his car, and laying
on his back, pop the roof back out with his feet. I personally have
trouble seeing you frtzw doing this, but then you have already
surprised me a few times!:)

This might lead you to consider adding a 2x4 runner to your home brewed
rack, that would run parallel to the existing runner, and the 2x4 cross
member would rest on and be attached to this runner which is bolted to
the standard runners. Carpet, or rubber strips on these runners will
protect the car paint from being worn through and leading to rusting of
the car body.

I noticed in your picture that there is quite a bit of overhang over
the roof of the van. You could extend these 2x4 runners further
forward, to the front of the van, so that the cross member could be
mounted as far forward as possible, and would allow for more support to
the kayak. I would hate to have you break the keel of the boat by using
just the short standard rack length.

Some would support the extended length with some foam on top of the
roof at the front of van. I saw a boat that had been setting out in the
sun, and then driven with road vibrations and wind load. Sadly the
whole thing had collapsed like a wet noodle down over the top of the
car, and to say the least, was beyond repair.

This is a bigger problem with the long poly boats like what you have.
That stern and bow line that you need to keep the boat on the rack, can
easily break its back. So snug is good, but not to tight!

Your report was great, and I look forward to more pictures. Include one
of your happy mug, to convince me though you're having a good time!

BTW you may begin to figure that I own stock in Greater Northwest
Lumber & 2x4 futures! grin

Some projects never end, they just lead to another! Especially if you
take very many showers!

For example, some find as they get "older" that the weight of the boat
gets harder to lift to the rack. Using this foundational rack that we
have in place, set up a small lift with pulley to pull kayak up onto
rack. I have a friend with a motorhome, that he developed such a
system. He has arthritis, and has trouble with the weight now, though
he still enjoys a short paddle. Red Green is waiting for you, TnT

Tink, more great ideas!

Thanks, I'll have an extra addition to my house built up on top of the
van before this is over. GRIN

Cheers,
Wilf
===============