On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:50:11 -0800, Peter
wrote:

Cyli wrote:

On 14 Mar 2005 19:02:10 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:

(snipped)

Hmmmm... now you've got me worried. Just to check, do you have
expertise re van doors? I don't, hence my worry. I wouldn't have
thought that approx 50 pounds at the mid-point of the door frame would
be too much for the door-to-frame connection to withstand. However, I
haven't a clue. Does anyone else out there have any opinions?

Cheers,
Wilf


Only a few damaged car doors. Not by boats, but by kids. The doors
did stay on as long as they were kept locked closed and tied to the
frames if necessary, but that mean exiting through the car window,
which could be undignified, especially in a skirt or dress.

To what kind of forces were these doors subjected?

Damfino. It was kids. They stutter and stammer and wobble when
questioned. They evade and say that they don't know or XXX did it.
In one case, the car was that way when the kid bought it.

All 3 on inexpensive American mid sized cars built in the 60s to 80s.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

Hey, you guys have been great! I still don't have my solution, but I
think we're getting there.

In review, my own particulars a a '94 Ford Aerostar where dents and
scratches are not an issue (Hell! It's an Aerostar! Was there ever a
cheaper van made?!), no commercial roof rack, just the thing that all
Aerostars come with, and a short (5'7"), stocky guy who can carry and
horizontal lift the 90 pound kayak to a height of about 4.5' (I've not
tried clean-and-jerk... maybe after a few beer). After just two trips,
I've just about perfected (and really like) the "front end on the front
door" maneuver. BUT, Cyli's got me worried and thinking alternatives.

I think Tink has a point re the conduit; after all, it was made to be
bent. I went to the hardware store this morning and tried a bit of
pressure on the pipe and I was able to put a bit of a bend on it
without much effort. I then thought of going one dimension larger for
each of the pipes (greater diameter = more difficult to bend, right?).
I would have purchased right away had it not been for the price. I need
to find me an electrical shop that has "ends" (about 4-6 feet worth of
ends) kicking about.

As an alternative (and it was something one of you said, I'm sure), I
could go very crude and very elemental (if the material strength is up
to the task). Tell me what you think...

Two approx 7' pieces of 1X4. Place one lengthwise, on the left-hand
side of the van, under both roof rack crossbeams. Then, place the other
1X4 under, and at 90 degrees to the first 1X4, with about 3' jutting
out over the right-hand side of the van for me to place the kayak on
(this piece would be secured, with rope, to the crossbeam to ensure it
doesn't slip as the weight of the boat is placed on it).

Why 1X4? Because nothing thicker than 1" will fit under the crossbeams
and still allow another timber to be placed under it.

Question to all you bright guys: will the 1X4 be strong enough to hold
the kayak?

Cheers,
Wilf

BCITORGB wrote:
Hey, you guys have been great! I still don't have my solution, but I
think we're getting there.

In review, my own particulars a a '94 Ford Aerostar where dents
and
scratches are not an issue (Hell! It's an Aerostar! Was there ever a
cheaper van made?!), no commercial roof rack, just the thing that all
Aerostars come with, and a short (5'7"), stocky guy who can carry and
horizontal lift the 90 pound kayak to a height of about 4.5' (I've
not
tried clean-and-jerk... maybe after a few beer). After just two
trips,
I've just about perfected (and really like) the "front end on the
front
door" maneuver. BUT, Cyli's got me worried and thinking alternatives.

I think Tink has a point re the conduit; after all, it was made to be
bent. I went to the hardware store this morning and tried a bit of
pressure on the pipe and I was able to put a bit of a bend on it
without much effort. I then thought of going one dimension larger for
each of the pipes (greater diameter = more difficult to bend,
right?).
I would have purchased right away had it not been for the price. I
need
to find me an electrical shop that has "ends" (about 4-6 feet worth
of
ends) kicking about.

As an alternative (and it was something one of you said, I'm sure), I
could go very crude and very elemental (if the material strength is
up
to the task). Tell me what you think...

Two approx 7' pieces of 1X4. Place one lengthwise, on the left-hand
side of the van, under both roof rack crossbeams. Then, place the
other
1X4 under, and at 90 degrees to the first 1X4, with about 3' jutting
out over the right-hand side of the van for me to place the kayak on
(this piece would be secured, with rope, to the crossbeam to ensure
it
doesn't slip as the weight of the boat is placed on it).

Why 1X4? Because nothing thicker than 1" will fit under the
crossbeams
and still allow another timber to be placed under it.

Question to all you bright guys: will the 1X4 be strong enough to
hold
the kayak?

Cheers,
Wilf

I think you are right, we are getting there.

Starting with your roof rack, it is held on to the top of the van with
sheet metal screws, and kf you look carefully you will find a "Do Not
Exceed" label, which refers to the Max weight the rack can support.
Most are in the range of 100 lbs. This is somewhat misleading because
as you are driving down the road you could easily have several hundred
pounds of wind resistance trying to take the rack right off the top of
the car.

This happens every year here, we will read an article in the news about
someone losing their roof rack with Kayaks still attached, as they are
driving down the road. Happens with skis as well, and typically skis
would weigh much less than 100 lbs. For the record, put your skis on
the rack with them pointing to the rear. Again typically, it is when
the rack gets hit by a gust of wind as you are driving down the
highway, that the load limit will be exceded. The carnage that results
is not pretty, especially if it is your kayak, vehicle, or friends in
the following car that meet your flying load up close and personal.

There was a recent thread here or on RBP about how to properly tie your
boat on top of car. Basically, you need to use lines tied to bow and
stern, tied to the car structure proper. Like a hitch in back, the
front can be more problematic. Anyway check the thread, riverman had
some good experience recommedations.

Now as far as the need for the extension, it becomes clearer now. The
standard rack is inset in from the edge of the roof. Also being 57"
precludes you just lifting the boat on top of van. I am 74", and take
some things for granted. But then you can get into a smaller boat and
be comfortable. I get into my Overflow, which is one of the bigger WW
boats, and it becomes a squirt boat or submarine. To say nothing about
the fact that my feet are all scrunched up. I was reading that Wilko is
80" if I read it right, so I don't know how he does it. Will have to
ask him.

Anyway, back to your rack, I would look into using a 2x4, U-bolted on
top of the existing rack to the side runners, and allow the 2x4 to
extend out beyond the side of the van. You could also use 3/4 in
galvanized pipe that would resist the salt water better. The ends would
be threaded so that you can install end caps. You would not have either
of these extending beyond the side of the van further than 4". But if
they extended that far, you may be able to hook the end of the boat on
that. If not you may still have to work on an extention, but this would
give you a base to mount the extention on. See what you think of this,
TnT

Tink, thanks for the 2X4 tip and the U-bolts. I read this after I
posted my crude 2X4 solution. Your U-boly idea would likely be better
(more rigid) than my idea of lashing the 2X4. I'll hunt around the
hardware store for the ingredients for this stew.

Thanks,
Wilf

On 16-Mar-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Anyway, back to your rack, I would look into using a 2x4, U-bolted on
top of the existing rack to the side runners, and allow the 2x4 to

Depending on the roof curvature, you might need a 2x6, but - don't
put the wood on the existing rack. Cut one side of the 2x6 to
match the curvature of the roof, cover with a layer of thin carpet
or strong, closed-cell foam and then rest it on the roof directly.
U-bolt it to the rack crossbar. Make one for each of the front
and rear crossbars.

This way, the wood carries the load directly to the roof and the
existing cheap factory rack only holds it in place. You can
attach almost anything to the 2x6 to tie down canoes, kayaks
etc.

Don't have the wood extending past the side of the vehicle any
more than legal. Use a piece of old wood hockey stick to make
an extender and use a couple of long bolts to stick into holes
in the 2x6 to temporarily hold it in place.

Use cedar for the 2x6 and you don't have to finish it. No
problems with rot or insect damage for years.

Mike

Michael says:
===============
Depending on the roof curvature, you might need a 2x6, but - don't
put the wood on the existing rack. Cut one side of the 2x6 to
match the curvature of the roof, cover with a layer of thin carpet
or strong, closed-cell foam and then rest it on the roof directly.
U-bolt it to the rack crossbar. Make one for each of the front
and rear crossbars.
================

WOW! Fantastic ideas.

THNX
Wilf

BCITORGB wrote:
Michael says:
===============
Depending on the roof curvature, you might need a 2x6, but - don't
put the wood on the existing rack. Cut one side of the 2x6 to
match the curvature of the roof, cover with a layer of thin carpet
or strong, closed-cell foam and then rest it on the roof directly.
U-bolt it to the rack crossbar. Make one for each of the front
and rear crossbars.
================

WOW! Fantastic ideas.

THNX
Wilf

See, I knew Michael would have some good Ideas, especially the hockey
stick. You being into field hockey, might know where to find some of
those. We don't have so much ash down here. Cedar is also good idea!

The only consideration about fitting the 2x6 to the curve of the roof,
is that the roof supports inside the body run across the width of the
van. You would want to locate the 2x6 directly on one of these,
otherwise it would just be the skin of the van supporting the load. The
skin on these newer vehicles is so thin, it will easily bend, and you
will end up with a van with a concave roof. Not good where it rains a
lot!

Contrary to Michaels suggestion, I would still recommend that the
logitudinal runners of the existing stock rack, support the crossmember
whether 2x4 or 2x6. These longitudinal runners span from one body
support to another, and would spread out the weight of the load instead
of concentrating it in just one spot, or one body support. If the
existing rack collapsed under the load, you can more easily replace or
repair the rack, than straighten out the concave roof. Though I did
know one character that would regularly get inside his car, and laying
on his back, pop the roof back out with his feet. I personally have
trouble seeing you frtzw doing this, but then you have already
surprised me a few times!

This might lead you to consider adding a 2x4 runner to your home brewed
rack, that would run parallel to the existing runner, and the 2x4 cross
member would rest on and be attached to this runner which is bolted to
the standard runners. Carpet, or rubber strips on these runners will
protect the car paint from being worn through and leading to rusting of
the car body.

I noticed in your picture that there is quite a bit of overhang over
the roof of the van. You could extend these 2x4 runners further
forward, to the front of the van, so that the cross member could be
mounted as far forward as possible, and would allow for more support to
the kayak. I would hate to have you break the keel of the boat by using
just the short standard rack length.

Some would support the extended length with some foam on top of the
roof at the front of van. I saw a boat that had been setting out in the
sun, and then driven with road vibrations and wind load. Sadly the
whole thing had collapsed like a wet noodle down over the top of the
car, and to say the least, was beyond repair.

This is a bigger problem with the long poly boats like what you have.
That stern and bow line that you need to keep the boat on the rack, can
easily break its back. So snug is good, but not to tight!

Your report was great, and I look forward to more pictures. Include one
of your happy mug, to convince me though you're having a good time!

BTW you may begin to figure that I own stock in Greater Northwest
Lumber & 2x4 futures! grin

Some projects never end, they just lead to another! Especially if you
take very many showers!

For example, some find as they get "older" that the weight of the boat
gets harder to lift to the rack. Using this foundational rack that we
have in place, set up a small lift with pulley to pull kayak up onto
rack. I have a friend with a motorhome, that he developed such a
system. He has arthritis, and has trouble with the weight now, though
he still enjoys a short paddle. Red Green is waiting for you, TnT

Tink, more great ideas!

Thanks, I'll have an extra addition to my house built up on top of the
van before this is over. GRIN

Cheers,
Wilf
===============

On 16-Mar-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

You would want to locate the 2x6 directly on one of these,
otherwise it would just be the skin of the van supporting the load. The
skin on these newer vehicles is so thin, it will easily bend, and you
will end up with a van with a concave roof. Not good where it rains a
lot!


Since the 2x is about 60 inches long and about 1.5 inches wide, the
bearing area is about 90 sq. in. Two of these means the weight is
carried on 180 sq in. With two 90 lb WW canoes - that's only
1 psi average pressure. Not as big a deal as you might think.

Contrary to Michaels suggestion, I would still recommend that the
logitudinal runners of the existing stock rack, support the crossmember
whether 2x4 or 2x6. These longitudinal runners span from one body

Sorry for the confusion, but I didn't mean to not use the longitudinals.
Rather, don't use the crossbars. They are not strong or stiff.

I know folks who have attaches a 2x4 to the longitudinals running
the length of the vehicle and then 2x4s as crossbars - the whole
thing held in place by bolting to the existing roof rack. Much
stronger than a factory rack.

Mike