I'm going to jump in on this one, because I sit on both sides of the
image issue.

If I am instructing through my shop, and the classes are beginner
"intro" classes, then I will use a gorgeous boat. Shiny, pretty,
whatever. Why? Because instruction through the shop helps sell boats
for the shop, and in my experience the new image helps sell boats.
Pure economics. Image is very important in that part of my market.

Am I doing much rescue work in the beginner "intro" classes? Not
really. I'm teaching very basic stuff, and only spending a few hours
on the water. I'll cover a rescue when someone flips while bracing,
but I try to keep the classes short enough that people have fun, don't
get tired, and want to come back for more. The boats don't get beat up
in those classes.

Being landlocked in Colorado, my paddling environment is different
from the coastal paddlers, and the classes are for my conditions not
elsewhere. Someone can keep a boat looking very shiny and new in this
environment, while still paddling many hours a week.

The new shiny rule applies to canoes, kayaks, whatever.

If I am instructing through a club, or a non-beginner class for the
shop, then I'll grab my personal boats. These have been beat up,
rebuilt, beat up more, etc. They are used, abused, and while I try to
keep them looking good, they may have several colors of not quite
matching gel where I rip them up on the rivers. Why do I grab the
beaters? Because the goal is pure instruction, not sales. If I am
really teaching then I am going to scratch the boats up. There is no
way around it. To teach I also put my students in a rougher
environment (typically rivers) and that is also harder on equipment.
The beat up boats also represent "battle scars", which is a different
image, but still an image.

I understand the arguments against pretty equipment, and I would agree
with them if I were not looking at it from a sales perspective. I sell
twice as many boats to beginner students when I'm in a pretty boat,
than when I am in a beater. I haven't examined the results for
non-beginner paddlers, it may be the reverse where beat up boats help
sales more. At least I hope that is the case.

On another note, I also cycle through my personal boats about once a
year, selling them mid to late season. That keeps me in good looking
boats, with all the current features/ trends. It's also because of
image. Would you feel more comfortable buying a Honda car from a
salesman who drives a new Civic or a rusted out clunker? I've sold
many good personal boats because of image. When someone buys the boat
and asks why I am selling it, I tell them the truth. Image.

For those who said they would not learn from someone in a shiny new
boat, think about this. If you instructor is in a shiny new boat, but
has a faded PFD and a scratched up paddle, is that a different image
from someone with all new equipment? I admit I'd trust the faded PFD
guy more. Some piece of equipment needs to be well used, because while
we all replace equipment, we seldom replace it all at the same time.

I'm not sure what environment Te is teaching in, if it is canoe or
kayak, but if it is connected to a shop and it is beginner fla****er
instruction, then a sharp looking boat is not a bad idea.

Beginners usually care more about image than seasoned paddlers. Right
or wrong, it is there. If the image is the "old man of the sea" or
"clean shaven ski instructor" it's there. Shops care about selling
boats, so when you put the two together, the shop needs to present the
image that will sell them the most boats. Economics can't be ignored,
and the shop that tries to ignore it will not last long (and yes, some
shops thrive on the old man of the sea image, but it is still an
image, just different from the shiny new style).

This is just my 2 cents, showing the odd nature of Colorado paddling
;-)

(Eric Nyre) wrote in
om:

I'm going to jump in on this one, because I sit on both sides of the
image issue.

If I am instructing through my shop, and the classes are beginner
"intro" classes, then I will use a gorgeous boat. Shiny, pretty,
whatever. Why? Because instruction through the shop helps sell boats
for the shop, and in my experience the new image helps sell boats.
Pure economics. Image is very important in that part of my market.

You offer some interesting perspectives Eric. In about an hour I'm going
down to my friends kayak shop to help teach a beginner lesson. I'm not sure
what he'll be paddling but he's got a couple of racks full of shiney new
boats for sale the the students will see before and after the lesson. Often
after intro lessons we'll spend some time in the shop talking about boats
(ie. comparing hard chine to soft chine, etc) so they have plenty of
opportunity to see some new merchandise.


Am I doing much rescue work in the beginner "intro" classes? Not
really. I'm teaching very basic stuff, and only spending a few hours
on the water. I'll cover a rescue when someone flips while bracing,
but I try to keep the classes short enough that people have fun, don't
get tired, and want to come back for more.

You teach bracing before you teach rescue skills? Do you even have the
students do a wet exit in your class as part of the curriculum? What if one
of your students takes your class, goes out later to practice bracing and
capsizes? In the classes that I help teach bracing is taught in the second
level class. Generally most students don't capsize unintentionally very
often in the first class. However, once they start trying bracing that's
when they start going over and get a chance to practice their rescue skills.
We also teach a bow rescue before we cover bracing and quite often students
won't even come out of their boats after a failed brace. When we start
teaching bracing we tell students that we expect some of them to capsize.
If they're not, they're probably not tipping their boats over enough such
that a brace is serving it's intended purpose.

"Eric Nyre" wrote in message
om...
I'm going to jump in on this one, because I sit on both sides of the
image issue.


snip


Am I doing much rescue work in the beginner "intro" classes? Not
really. I'm teaching very basic stuff, and only spending a few hours
on the water. I'll cover a rescue when someone flips while bracing,
but I try to keep the classes short enough that people have fun, don't
get tired, and want to come back for more. The boats don't get beat up
in those classes.

I'm not an instructor by any stretch of the imagination. But the above
seems out of sequence to me. Shouldn't a new kayaker know how to rescue and
be rescued before learning techniques that might put them in the water?

"Dave Van" wrote in message
nk.net...
I'm not an instructor by any stretch of the imagination. But the above
seems out of sequence to me. Shouldn't a new kayaker know how to rescue
and
be rescued before learning techniques that might put them in the water?

Not necessarily. I see the logic in teaching them how to stop from tipping
over before tipping them over. If you're going to be teaching them bracing
in the same controlled conditions you'd teach a rescue, go ahead and teach
the bracing.. and if someone does go over, then get on with teaching rescue.

If I had the choice, I'd rather learn bracing than rescue. Bracing is a
technique you really need to be shown.. rescue is something you can be
talked through or figure out if it becomes necessary.

Eric Nyre wrote:

interesting points of view snipped
I'm not sure what environment Te is teaching in, if it is canoe or
kayak, but if it is connected to a shop and it is beginner fla****er
instruction, then a sharp looking boat is not a bad idea.

As I think he said in his first or second post, it's beginner to
advanced fla****er instruction in quie****er freestyle, which is a
discipline in which you DO NOT run into things. A freestyle instructor
is expected to have a pristine looking boat, regardless of its age,
because there is no excuse for banging into rocks, docks, or student boats.

It's not whitewater, it's not tripping, it's not life or death, it's
just boat control, so why hit things?

AFAIK, Te Canaille does not sell boats for anybody, so that's not part
of the equation here, but I can see Eric's program, and it makes sense.

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Hmmm.... Looks like Dave's message was zapped from my Usenet.

If it is in reference to my post, I guess I can comment (based on what
Jon posted).

First let me address the assumption that we are only talking about sea
kayaking in a coastal environment. I never said that. I'm talking
about fla****er canoe or kayaking, and my environment is beautiful
Colorado. My response is to a thread started by Te concerning keeping
a boat looking good for instruction. I do not know if that is in
reference to canoes, sea kayaks, or whatever, and for the purposes of
my thread it is irrelevant.

Rant over, response resuming ;-)

Rescue depends on paddling situations. River rescue is different from
open water rescue. But basic how to get in, how to turn, how to brace
strokes are universal.

Keep in mind, my basic intro classes have students who have never been
in a canoe or kayak before, some people who don't really know what
canoes or kayaks are (their friends bring them along. I don't want to
fry their brains with too much information.

At the end of my beginner classes, I allow the students a practice
session if they want (other people are ready to leave, but I encourage
practice). Those who practice will flip. When they do, I show them the
type of rescue appropriate to their paddling environment. If they are
paddling solo, I show them solo rescues. If they are paddling with
their friends, and their friends are in the class, I walk their
friends through the rescue. I feel they will all learn better if they
have hands on experience.

Either way (solo or friends assisting), whatever I am paddling won't
get scratched. My initial post was in response to all the image
concerns, and it is very easy for me to teach a class, provide
beginners with their basics, and not bang up a boat. For rescue and
recovery clinics, you bet I will be paddling one of my personal
scratched to no end boats, but that's not the subject of the thread.
We are talking about beginner fla****er classes.

Think back to the first time you ever saw a canoe or kayak up close.
If the instructor focused on what to do when you are upside down, you
would think that the boat is going to constantly flip. I want my
students to focus on paddling, at least for their first exposure. I
want them to have fun on their first time out. I save the work for the
next class (my rescue clinics are free and I strongly encourage my
students to participate in them).

Jon C wrote:

rescue is something you can be
talked through or figure out if it becomes necessary.

I vehemently disagree with this statement! Rescues need to be practiced
and drilled until you can do them in your sleep. Sure, you can puzzle
through one or walk someone else through one on flat water, but when you
REALLY need to do a rescue, you DON'T have time to think about it or
figure it out for the first time. If you don't believe me, try it in
real conditions sometime. It's a real eye-opener when you try a rescue
in 3'+ waves and 15+ knot winds as you're getting blown toward rocks.
That's exactly the kind of conditions you can find yourself in during an
unexpected thunderstorm. Practice rescues in real conditions on a
regular basis and you'll be much better prepare to face real-life rescue
situations.

"Brian Nystrom" wrote in message
...
Jon C wrote:

rescue is something you can be
talked through or figure out if it becomes necessary.

I vehemently disagree with this statement! Rescues need to be practiced
and drilled until you can do them in your sleep. Sure, you can puzzle
through one or walk someone else through one on flat water, but when you
REALLY need to do a rescue, you DON'T have time to think about it or
figure it out for the first time. If you don't believe me, try it in
real conditions sometime. It's a real eye-opener when you try a rescue
in 3'+ waves and 15+ knot winds as you're getting blown toward rocks.
That's exactly the kind of conditions you can find yourself in during an
unexpected thunderstorm. Practice rescues in real conditions on a
regular basis and you'll be much better prepare to face real-life rescue
situations.


You should absolutely have your rescues down cold if you could possibly end
up in that kind of situation. If you're going to be on the open ocean or
anything like that, then most certainly. For the mile long lake down the
street, then it's not that important. There are lots of reasons to do stuff
before rescue, not the least of which is avoiding making everyone sit around
soaked and waterlogged during a very basic intro to kayaking class on a
little pond.