About 6 years ago I started traveling to various canoe clinics to teach FreeStyle Canoeing. Commercial airline flights
were chosen as the means of transportation due to time constraints and actually a more economical way to go. Canoes and paddles
could always be borrowed but kneeling pads were a problem. My personalized homemade pad was almost a necessity. A FreeStyle Canoe
pad is closed-cell foam, one half inch thick and 48 inches on each edge. The answer to this transportation dilemma was a 48 inch
long by 12 inch diameter duffle bag. The pad was simply rolled up around my PFD and sleeping bag and stored in the duffle. In these
last 5 years have included flights from Louisiana to Montana, New York, California, Florida, North Carolina, Texas on various
airlines, many on Continental. Nothing was ever mentioned about the duffle until a recent flight to Cleveland. Continental gladly
accepted my duffle on the first leg from Baton Rouge to Cleveland but when checking it on the return flight the ticket agent, a
middle-aged man asked about the bag's contents. The truthful reply was given. It was apparent that something was up when an almost
indiscernible but triumphant smile appeared on his face. "This bag is oversized and will cost $ 80.00 extra." "Whoa, I no one has
ever mentioned this before, besides this is a return flight and Continental accepted this duffle on the first leg. The time to raise
this issue was then and all the previous years", I replied. A very stern look appeared and he answered, "They all should have told
you then. Just think of me as a policeman who finally caught you." Now, my pad cost about $ 65 to make, so I was about to pay this
individual $15 more dollars than it was worth particularly considering the circumstances, so I tried another approach. " Why don't I
take the pad out, leave it here with you, ship the sleeping bag, and wear the life jacket, although I wonder what the reaction will
be from fellow passengers when I board the plane wearing a life vest", I added. He found this not in the least bit humorous, so I
tried another approach. "Seems to me that I've witnessed other items this size being shipped without this issue being raised", I
ventured. On hearing that, he whipped out, ( this time with apparent triumph ), a tape measure. I couldn't help being reminded of
Barney Fife on Mayberry RFD whipping out his unloaded revolver. Going to the round end of the duffle, he measured it's diameter
vertically, then horizontally, then the length. "Oh yes", he said with great satisfaction, "This is much greater than 62 square
inches in area." I figured a ticket agent was probably a high school graduate and would understand basic geometry, so offered that
the correct way to measure a cylindrically shaped object was Pi times the radius squared, times the length and that would yield a
volumetric area in cubic inches, not a square area in inches. That produced a look on his face like that of a deer caught in
headlights, followed by a furrowed bow. At that point, he said, "Wait here", turned on his heel and disappeared into a door behind
the ticket counter. He soon emerged with a younger woman in tow who was either a figure of higher authority or just someone who
understood simple math. A conversation identical to the previous one ensued culminated with her drawing out a tape measure like a
six gun from a holster and measuring the duffle in exactly the same manner followed by my short discourse on elementary geometry.
There was no relenting in her demeanor and I realized then that they would not budge. At that moment an act of complete irony took
place when a gentleman arrived at the adjoining counter with a hard shelled golf club case that looked as though a Mack truck and 3
burly teamsters would be needed to load it onto the plane. It was roughly the same dimensions as my duffle and was accepted without
comment by another Continental agent. Upon pointing that out I was informed that golf club bags and certain other oversized items
were exempt from the extra charge. " You mean to tell me that you will accept these heavy bulky items such as golf clubs at no
charge and want $ 80 for a lightweight canoeing pad", I noted. "Yes", came an icy reply.

At this point a somewhat humorous if not bothersome scene turned very dark. I had purchased E-tickets which meant that Continental
Airlines had my credit card number. The female ticket agent armed with this information informed me that if I continued to argue,
Continental Airlines would charge an additional $80 for the first flight plus ( already taken ) and an extra $ 80 for the return
flight. This was certainly an attempted intimidation if not an open threat. Continental had promoted the E-ticket concept as a
convenience for them and me but now armed with my credit card number, introduced the idea that they would add charges as they
pleased ! I am now aware that this policy exists ( for all except golfers ) and will now conform but notwithstanding the specific
question, to my way of thinking this opened a larger question for any passengers purchasing E-tickets. IF TICKETS ARE PURCHASED
ELECTRONICALLY WITH A CREDIT CARD NUMBER, DOES THE CARRIER HAVE THE RIGHT TO ADD ADDITIONAL CHARGES AT THEIR OWN DISCRETION? This
had such a chilling effect that I removed my bags and went to another section of the terminal to ponder a solution. The lines
through security were very long and there was a danger of missing the flight so I removed the pad from the duffle, left it in the
terminal, took the duffle with the PFD and sleeping bag to the sky cap outside, who gladly checked it through, and continued with
the journey.

I'll make a new pad. My wife and I will certainly never fly Continental or purchase E-tickets again. We travel for other
business as well and probably only spend about $ 4,000 to $5,000 a year on tickets. That certainly is no big loss for Continental,
but will be my small protest. I URGE EVERYONE TO BE AWARE THAT IF YOU PURCHASE E-TICKETS WITH A CREDIT CARD YOU MAY BE PUTTING YOUR
BANK ACCOUNT AT THE MERCY OF A FRUSTRATED TICKET CLERK SOMEWHERE WITH A NEED TO ASSERT THEMSELVES.

if it were me, i'd write a letter to the president of continental, the
transportation board and any other governing body you can get the address
of. actually, you've already written the letter. just stick an address on
it and send. i'd be very interested in any responses you get.

dan

--
You're never too old to have a happy childhood.

On Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:05:06 -0500, "Te Canaille"
wrote:

About 6 years ago I started traveling to various canoe clinics to teach FreeStyle Canoeing. Commercial airline flights
were chosen as the means of transportation due to time constraints and actually a more economical way to go. Canoes and paddles
could always be borrowed but kneeling pads were a problem. My personalized homemade pad was almost a necessity. A FreeStyle Canoe

At this point a somewhat humorous if not bothersome scene turned very dark. I had purchased E-tickets which meant that Continental
Airlines had my credit card number. The female ticket agent armed with this information informed me that if I continued to argue,

question, to my way of thinking this opened a larger question for any passengers purchasing E-tickets. IF TICKETS ARE PURCHASED
ELECTRONICALLY WITH A CREDIT CARD NUMBER, DOES THE CARRIER HAVE THE RIGHT TO ADD ADDITIONAL CHARGES AT THEIR OWN DISCRETION? This
had such a chilling effect that I removed my bags and went to another section of the terminal to ponder a solution. The lines
through security were very long and there was a danger of missing the flight so I removed the pad from the duffle, left it in the
terminal, took the duffle with the PFD and sleeping bag to the sky cap outside, who gladly checked it through, and continued with
the journey.

I'll make a new pad. My wife and I will certainly never fly Continental or purchase E-tickets again. We travel for other
business as well and probably only spend about $ 4,000 to $5,000 a year on tickets. That certainly is no big loss for Continental,
but will be my small protest. I URGE EVERYONE TO BE AWARE THAT IF YOU PURCHASE E-TICKETS WITH A CREDIT CARD YOU MAY BE PUTTING YOUR
BANK ACCOUNT AT THE MERCY OF A FRUSTRATED TICKET CLERK SOMEWHERE WITH A NEED TO ASSERT THEMSELVES.

In many airports, checking borderline baggage through the skycaps is
far more likely to get through with excess baggage charges.

I do find amusement in the clerks who cite FAA backing and federal
authority for their every whim. It helps to have a printout of their
airline's policy.

Similar issues have come up for backpackers traveling with empty
stoves. While the FAA (and common sense) obviously prohibit any stove
FUEL being on a plane, some airlines or boarding clerks interpret that
as meaning no STOVES, even brand new, and force people to throw them
away, which could ruin their trip.

You are lucky you didn't get in trouble for leaving a large object in
the terminal.

Nasty move with the retroactive charges, you might be able to contest
them through your CC company. BTW, the other night at the
all-you-can-eat buffet, you ate more than we planned, so we are adding
a $5 charge onto the the credit card you used.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Te Canaille wrote:
My personalized homemade pad was almost a necessity. A
FreeStyle Canoe pad is closed-cell foam, one half inch thick and 48
inches on each edge. The answer to this transportation dilemma was a 48
inch long by 12 inch diameter duffle bag. ...
"This bag is oversized and
will cost $ 80.00 extra." ... Going to the round end of the
duffle, he measured it's diameter vertically, then horizontally, then
the length. "Oh yes", he said with great satisfaction, "This is much
greater than 62 square inches in area." I figured a ticket agent was
probably a high school graduate and would understand basic geometry, so
offered that the correct way to measure a cylindrically shaped object
was Pi times the radius squared, times the length and that would yield a
volumetric area in cubic inches, not a square area in inches.

I'd be interested in hearing what experiences others have had recently with
airlines interpretation of their oversize rules. The standard of 62" for
(length + width + height) has been in most airlines' rules for a long time
- at least since before 1992 when I bought my folding kayak. No, it doesn't
correspond to either volume or area, but then arbitrary rules don't have to
make sense and this one is spelled out very explicitly in the airlines'
policies for checked baggage - along with specific exemptions for things
like golf bags and skis.

However, my experience has been that it generally hasn't been enforced.
I've been asked the weight of my folding kayak bag several times (it's well
under the weight limit), but never questioned about the size (it's well
over 62"). If the concensus is that airlines are starting to more
seriously enforce the 62" limit then I'll shop around for a large golf bag
to replace the duffle bag I currently use to carry my kayak.

We had this problem travelling to Honduras with a sea kayak several years
ago -- even before 9/11. We dutifully repacked everything to get 1" under
the maximum height/width/length limit and a couple of pounds under the max
weight. Incidentally, it was an international flight on Continental. And
they were talking about a few hundred dollars extra charges.

Airlines are getting damned sticky on this now. Northwest lowered its max
weight to something like 70 pounds, carging something like $50 for anything
over 50 pounds. Try to fit a double sea kayak and gear through that window.

We've also had the golf bag thing happen to us -- we dutifully packed
everything carefully to fit the previous guidelines and followed a couple of
rich-looking golfers through the baggage check. Their hard-shelled golf bags
must have been 50 percent larger than our bags, but they gleefully took them
onto the plane. Probably pure politics.

Anyway, here's one bit of advice: File complaint letters as soon and as
forcefully as possible. We got dinged on United Airlines in exactly the same
way as you: OK one way, not OK the other way. We got two free tickets out of
them after complaining. Best of luck. Our wheels should be just as squeaky
as a golfer -- maybe then we'd get treated better.

cheerio
craig lincoln

I took my Klepper double folding kayak to Tahiti a couple of years ago,
just prior to 9/11. I printed the airline's contract of carriage and
highlighted the pertainent rules in the sports equipment section. The
agent at Hawiian airlines initially told me they would not carry my
large bag at all. I reached into my back pocket for my highlighted
printout of the contract. She looked like a deer in the headlights. I
imediately started stating my case pointing to the rules. She then tried
to charge me $60. I reiterated my case, she then called in a supervisor
who asked me if it was "sports equipment". I said "Yes". He then said
"No charge". USAir was very friendly and checked the bags, no questions
asked. The agent gave me a bulkhead seat for lifting the large duffle
bag onto the belt. I like USAir.

Last summer American Airlines checked my Klepper, no questions asked.

Carry a highlighted copy of their contract of carriage. Usually it will
mention Duffel bags by name. If they still threaten to charge you, tell
them that they are not honoring their own agreement, and you will be
disputing the charges, and writing their president, and sending a copy
to the FAA.



Te Canaille wrote:

About 6 years ago I started traveling to various canoe clinics to teach FreeStyle Canoeing. Commercial airline flights
were chosen as the means of transportation due to time constraints and actually a more economical way to go. Canoes and paddles
could always be borrowed but kneeling pads were a problem. My personalized homemade pad was almost a necessity. A FreeStyle Canoe
pad is closed-cell foam, one half inch thick and 48 inches on each edge. The answer to this transportation dilemma was a 48 inch
long by 12 inch diameter duffle bag. The pad was simply rolled up around my PFD and sleeping bag and stored in the duffle. In these
last 5 years have included flights from Louisiana to Montana, New York, California, Florida, North Carolina, Texas on various
airlines, many on Continental. Nothing was ever mentioned about the duffle until a recent flight to Cleveland. Continental gladly
accepted my duffle on the first leg from Baton Rouge to Cleveland but when checking it on the return flight the ticket agent, a
middle-aged man asked about the bag's contents. The truthful reply was given. It was apparent that something was up when an almost
indiscernible but triumphant smile appeared on his face. "This bag is oversized and will cost $ 80.00 extra." "Whoa, I no one has
ever mentioned this before, besides this is a return flight and Continental accepted this duffle on the first leg. The time to raise
this issue was then and all the previous years", I replied. A very stern look appeared and he answered, "They all should have told
you then. Just think of me as a policeman who finally caught you." Now, my pad cost about $ 65 to make, so I was about to pay this
individual $15 more dollars than it was worth particularly considering the circumstances, so I tried another approach. " Why don't I
take the pad out, leave it here with you, ship the sleeping bag, and wear the life jacket, although I wonder what the reaction will
be from fellow passengers when I board the plane wearing a life vest", I added. He found this not in the least bit humorous, so I
tried another approach. "Seems to me that I've witnessed other items this size being shipped without this issue being raised", I
ventured. On hearing that, he whipped out, ( this time with apparent triumph ), a tape measure. I couldn't help being reminded of
Barney Fife on Mayberry RFD whipping out his unloaded revolver. Going to the round end of the duffle, he measured it's diameter
vertically, then horizontally, then the length. "Oh yes", he said with great satisfaction, "This is much greater than 62 square
inches in area." I figured a ticket agent was probably a high school graduate and would understand basic geometry, so offered that
the correct way to measure a cylindrically shaped object was Pi times the radius squared, times the length and that would yield a
volumetric area in cubic inches, not a square area in inches. That produced a look on his face like that of a deer caught in
headlights, followed by a furrowed bow. At that point, he said, "Wait here", turned on his heel and disappeared into a door behind
the ticket counter. He soon emerged with a younger woman in tow who was either a figure of higher authority or just someone who
understood simple math. A conversation identical to the previous one ensued culminated with her drawing out a tape measure like a
six gun from a holster and measuring the duffle in exactly the same manner followed by my short discourse on elementary geometry.
There was no relenting in her demeanor and I realized then that they would not budge. At that moment an act of complete irony took
place when a gentleman arrived at the adjoining counter with a hard shelled golf club case that looked as though a Mack truck and 3
burly teamsters would be needed to load it onto the plane. It was roughly the same dimensions as my duffle and was accepted without
comment by another Continental agent. Upon pointing that out I was informed that golf club bags and certain other oversized items
were exempt from the extra charge. " You mean to tell me that you will accept these heavy bulky items such as golf clubs at no
charge and want $ 80 for a lightweight canoeing pad", I noted. "Yes", came an icy reply.

At this point a somewhat humorous if not bothersome scene turned very dark. I had purchased E-tickets which meant that Continental
Airlines had my credit card number. The female ticket agent armed with this information informed me that if I continued to argue,
Continental Airlines would charge an additional $80 for the first flight plus ( already taken ) and an extra $ 80 for the return
flight. This was certainly an attempted intimidation if not an open threat. Continental had promoted the E-ticket concept as a
convenience for them and me but now armed with my credit card number, introduced the idea that they would add charges as they
pleased ! I am now aware that this policy exists ( for all except golfers ) and will now conform but notwithstanding the specific
question, to my way of thinking this opened a larger question for any passengers purchasing E-tickets. IF TICKETS ARE PURCHASED
ELECTRONICALLY WITH A CREDIT CARD NUMBER, DOES THE CARRIER HAVE THE RIGHT TO ADD ADDITIONAL CHARGES AT THEIR OWN DISCRETION? This
had such a chilling effect that I removed my bags and went to another section of the terminal to ponder a solution. The lines
through security were very long and there was a danger of missing the flight so I removed the pad from the duffle, left it in the
terminal, took the duffle with the PFD and sleeping bag to the sky cap outside, who gladly checked it through, and continued with
the journey.

I'll make a new pad. My wife and I will certainly never fly Continental or purchase E-tickets again. We travel for other
business as well and probably only spend about $ 4,000 to $5,000 a year on tickets. That certainly is no big loss for Continental,
but will be my small protest. I URGE EVERYONE TO BE AWARE THAT IF YOU PURCHASE E-TICKETS WITH A CREDIT CARD YOU MAY BE PUTTING YOUR
BANK ACCOUNT AT THE MERCY OF A FRUSTRATED TICKET CLERK SOMEWHERE WITH A NEED TO ASSERT THEMSELVES.

If the concensus is that airlines are starting to more
seriously enforce the 62" limit then I'll shop around for a large golf bag
to replace the duffle bag I currently use to carry my kayak.

Yes, without a doubt, the airlines are vigorously enforcing the 62"
size and the weight limits. Some airlines have now lowered the weight
limit from the previous 70 pounds to 50 pounds (United, for example,
has a 50# limit). It's all because of their new "maximize profits at
the expense of customer service" effort.

I've never flown with a collapsible boat, but do fly with a tandem
bicycle, which is designed to fit into two 62" cases. But, it's a
challenge to keep it and all the necessary extras under 50 pounds per
case (when you figure that the case itself weighs 15-20#). Many
airlines' rule of carriage specifically single out boats (and bikes)
as requiring an extra charge. Theoretically, they could charge me for
my bike, even though it's in a regular-sized suitcase and under
weight.

Golfers and skiers get an exemption, for some reason. Most likely
because they are a large customer base for the airlines, and would not
put up with extra charges. Bikers and paddlers are not, as much as we
might like to think we are.

Brian :

In my case the oversize policy was not vigorously enforced on the first leg of the trip. I was checked through without any
comment from Continental. They waited until I was in a strange city on the return flight when I was helpless to correct the
situation to enforce this and there's the rub. I truly had no idea that the duffel was in violation until I couldn't remedy the
situation. It's a question of ethics. I think Continental's proper course of action here would have been to check the duffel
through, provide a copy of their written policy, and recommend that this not be attempted again. Instead they ticket agent
threatened to charge my credit card with $80 for the first flight. A bit of civility rather than strong arm tactics would have gone
a long way here.
There's also the question of enforcing written policy. If Continental is to be so dogmatic as to strictly enforce policy as it
is written then they need to show me where it is written that golf and ski bags are exempt. The answer is that it is not written,
that is an informal policy. So there is no real policy and passengers are charged only at the discretion of each agent. A very
inconsistent approach !
Lastly I was told that the bag could be exempt if it could be considered "sports" gear, but since canoeing isn't a "sport",
blah, blah, blah. Apparently Continental has decided that paddling is not a sport. That's another issue.

John

"Brian Wasson" wrote in message om...
If the concensus is that airlines are starting to more
seriously enforce the 62" limit then I'll shop around for a large golf bag
to replace the duffle bag I currently use to carry my kayak.

Yes, without a doubt, the airlines are vigorously enforcing the 62"
size and the weight limits. Some airlines have now lowered the weight
limit from the previous 70 pounds to 50 pounds (United, for example,
has a 50# limit). It's all because of their new "maximize profits at
the expense of customer service" effort.

I've never flown with a collapsible boat, but do fly with a tandem
bicycle, which is designed to fit into two 62" cases. But, it's a
challenge to keep it and all the necessary extras under 50 pounds per
case (when you figure that the case itself weighs 15-20#). Many
airlines' rule of carriage specifically single out boats (and bikes)
as requiring an extra charge. Theoretically, they could charge me for
my bike, even though it's in a regular-sized suitcase and under
weight.

Golfers and skiers get an exemption, for some reason. Most likely
because they are a large customer base for the airlines, and would not
put up with extra charges. Bikers and paddlers are not, as much as we
might like to think we are.