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#21
posted to rec.boats
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Boating today...
Eisboch wrote:
More on helm positions .... or semi-worthless nautical information .... I never knew this until we had the Grand Banks. By tradition, dating back to the great sailing ships, the helm had one spoke that was marked in some fashion to indicate that the rudder was midships when the marked spoke was in the upright position. There's a name for this mark that escapes me, but the Grand Banks carried on this nautical tradition. Here are pictures of the lower and upper station helms. In the case of the GB, one spoke had rings turned into it on a lathe to mark the midship spoke. They are indicated by the red arrows: The GB had cable steering. I can guarantee that the marked spoke would be in different positions when maintaining a steady course in different wind conditions. http://www.eisboch.com/lowerhelmmark.jpg http://www.eisboch.com/upperhelmmark.jpg Eisboch Indeed, but that wasn't the issue *I* was discussing. |
#22
posted to rec.boats
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Boating today...
John H. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 08:20:54 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: More on helm positions .... or semi-worthless nautical information .... I never knew this until we had the Grand Banks. By tradition, dating back to the great sailing ships, the helm had one spoke that was marked in some fashion to indicate that the rudder was midships when the marked spoke was in the upright position. There's a name for this mark that escapes me, but the Grand Banks carried on this nautical tradition. Here are pictures of the lower and upper station helms. In the case of the GB, one spoke had rings turned into it on a lathe to mark the midship spoke. They are indicated by the red arrows: The GB had cable steering. I can guarantee that the marked spoke would be in different positions when maintaining a steady course in different wind conditions. http://www.eisboch.com/lowerhelmmark.jpg http://www.eisboch.com/upperhelmmark.jpg Eisboch If one thinks that wind direction and speed won't affect helm position, they've never watched a plane land with a crosswind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX3S5...eature=related I wonder if that pilot has his rudder turned a little? D'oh. You really don't get it. |
#23
posted to rec.boats
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Boating today...
Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message . .. We're not talking about the same thing here, I don't believe. I'm talking about the engine or rudder being entirely amidships, in no apparent wind or current, and the knob on the wheel being wherever the hell it feels like being. You and Herring talking about the engine or rudder being used to maintain a course during the impact of wind, current or wave action. There's a difference, a big one. But, aren't *you* the one who chastised JohnH that "it's not the wind"? Eisboch Once again, we are discussing entirely different subjects. Of course your wheel and the knob attached to it will not be in the same position if you are correcting for course and current as it would be if you were heading straight ahead without any wind or current. D'oh. Apparently Herring thought it would be otherwise. "Gosharoonie, I had to turn the helm a bit to keep going "straight" because of the crosswind." *That* seemed to be his complaint. Well, of course. That wasn't the issue I brought up on Chuck's or on the bigtime boating tech discussion subboard to which I referred. |
#24
posted to rec.boats
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Boating today...
Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message . .. Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:47:54 -0400, HK wrote: Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:55:04 -0400, John H. wrote: On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:20:07 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:14:26 -0400, John H. wrote: was a blast. We went to a boaters' beach in Belmont Bay. Shared the place with about 50 other boats and had a great time. Went over to our old stomping grounds in Mattawoman Creek only to find the 'beach' overrun with hydrilla. No boats anywhere. Weather was great, little breeze (just enough to pinpoint the 'knob drift' problem), and nothing but wakes over one foot. The new Yamaha ran like a top. One of these days I'll see how fast it'll push that Key West. We're still very happy with the boat. Oh, and I didn't feel too 'foolish' either! Knob drift? Yeah, the thing Harry was complaining about on Chuck's Island. The position of the knob, when going straight, will vary with the direction of the wind. It doesn't mean there's a hydraulic steering problem or anything else, although I suppose it could. Um....that's not a "problem" as such - it's entirely normal when adjusting for windage you will naturally turn into or away from windage changing the position of the wind. Remember you have what is essentially a bay boat with no real draft to keep you from moving when the wind gets up. - in particular if you are just "cruising" along at a relatively slow speed. You will have better control as you speed up. Eventually, your helm will make a 360 degree turn on you - the hydraulics aren't pressurized so there will always be some slop in the system and it will vary with air temp - even your console will have some effect on the expansion and contraction of the steering control's hydraulic fluid. That's one of the little annoyances of light hydraulic steering on small boats. In the eight years I've owned the Ranger, my helm has spun around 360 or eve more than that. Why did you opt for the knob? The wind is NOT the issue. Good grief. The wandering knob syndrome is normal for Seastar hydraulic steering systems. It's mentioned in the manuals that come with the steering system. Yesh - and who told you that? It wasn't the manual. And I'd love to debate the relative positions of the helm when steering into or away from wind, but I don't feel like it. Who told me that? A "techie" guy on a real boating discussion board, who backed up what he said with a quote from the manual. Your "techie" is full of it. Hydraulic systems are capable of very fine and repeatable positioning due to the non-compressibility of the fluid. They are used often over cable or pneumatic systems when fine positioning control is required because they overcome the "sticky" nature of pneumatics and the stretching of cables. In the business I was in we used air over oil hydraulic systems to precisely move and locate 500 lb objects to within thousands of an inch. If the hydraulic steering system has not been purged of all air, or if there is a leak, I can accept the helm position non-repeatability. But, if leak-free and purged of all air, it should be perfectly repeatable. It's the cross wind. Eisboch Hehehe. Sure. We're talking a fairly "el cheapo" boat system here, fella. In the business you were in , your air over hydraulic system cost a bit more than half a large. |
#25
posted to rec.boats
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Boating today...
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:47:54 -0400, HK wrote: Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:55:04 -0400, John H. wrote: On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:20:07 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:14:26 -0400, John H. wrote: was a blast. We went to a boaters' beach in Belmont Bay. Shared the place with about 50 other boats and had a great time. Went over to our old stomping grounds in Mattawoman Creek only to find the 'beach' overrun with hydrilla. No boats anywhere. Weather was great, little breeze (just enough to pinpoint the 'knob drift' problem), and nothing but wakes over one foot. The new Yamaha ran like a top. One of these days I'll see how fast it'll push that Key West. We're still very happy with the boat. Oh, and I didn't feel too 'foolish' either! Knob drift? Yeah, the thing Harry was complaining about on Chuck's Island. The position of the knob, when going straight, will vary with the direction of the wind. It doesn't mean there's a hydraulic steering problem or anything else, although I suppose it could. Um....that's not a "problem" as such - it's entirely normal when adjusting for windage you will naturally turn into or away from windage changing the position of the wind. Remember you have what is essentially a bay boat with no real draft to keep you from moving when the wind gets up. - in particular if you are just "cruising" along at a relatively slow speed. You will have better control as you speed up. Eventually, your helm will make a 360 degree turn on you - the hydraulics aren't pressurized so there will always be some slop in the system and it will vary with air temp - even your console will have some effect on the expansion and contraction of the steering control's hydraulic fluid. That's one of the little annoyances of light hydraulic steering on small boats. In the eight years I've owned the Ranger, my helm has spun around 360 or eve more than that. Why did you opt for the knob? The wind is NOT the issue. Good grief. The wandering knob syndrome is normal for Seastar hydraulic steering systems. It's mentioned in the manuals that come with the steering system. Yesh - and who told you that? It wasn't the manual. And I'd love to debate the relative positions of the helm when steering into or away from wind, but I don't feel like it. Harry is acting all pompous because JohnH is discussing a question he asked in another post. If you had not told him why, Harry still would be wandering around in the dark. |
#26
posted to rec.boats
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Boating today...
"Eisboch" wrote in message ... "HK" wrote in message . .. Who told me that? A "techie" guy on a real boating discussion board, who backed up what he said with a quote from the manual. Your "techie" is full of it. Hydraulic systems are capable of very fine and repeatable positioning due to the non-compressibility of the fluid. They are used often over cable or pneumatic systems when fine positioning control is required because they overcome the "sticky" nature of pneumatics and the stretching of cables. In the business I was in we used air over oil hydraulic systems to precisely move and locate 500 lb objects to within thousands of an inch. If the hydraulic steering system has not been purged of all air, or if there is a leak, I can accept the helm position non-repeatability. But, if leak-free and purged of all air, it should be perfectly repeatable. It's the cross wind. Eisboch To be sure, if you see Krause's name anywhere in a thread, you will be seeing a lot of horse **** being thrown around. Cross wind will cause you to have to adjust helm position to maintain a straight course but I don't think that is the complaint. the issue is that when the boat is at rest and the engine is centered, the wheel position has changed from it's original position. I just took a peek at the Sea Star Web site. It seems there check valves and pressure relief valves built into the system. A leak in a check valve or operation of a pressure relief valve could be the cause of what these guys are seeing. No? Not to mention seal leakage. I don't think these are precision devices like the ones Eisboch is used to dealing with. The subject has been beat to death and if anyone doesn't like the fact that the suicide knob wont stay at 11 O' Clock, they should contact Teleflex for relief. Or they could have Eisboch's old company design and build a precision $500,000 helm. |
#27
posted to rec.boats
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Boating today...
On Jul 4, 9:32*pm, JimH wrote:
On Jul 4, 9:20*pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:14:26 -0400, John H. wrote: was a blast. We went to a boaters' beach in Belmont Bay. Shared the place with about 50 other boats and had a great time. Went over to our old stomping grounds in Mattawoman Creek only to find the 'beach' overrun with hydrilla. No boats anywhere. Weather was great, little breeze (just enough to pinpoint the 'knob drift' problem), and nothing but wakes over one foot. The new Yamaha ran like a top. One of these days I'll see how fast it'll push that Key West. We're still very happy with the boat. Oh, and I didn't feel too 'foolish' either! Knob drift? Operator error.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Idiot. |
#28
posted to rec.boats
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Boating today...
On Jul 4, 9:54*pm, JimH wrote:
On Jul 4, 9:55*pm, John H. wrote: On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:20:07 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:14:26 -0400, John H. wrote: was a blast. We went to a boaters' beach in Belmont Bay. Shared the place with about 50 other boats and had a great time. Went over to our old stomping grounds in Mattawoman Creek only to find the 'beach' overrun with hydrilla. No boats anywhere. Weather was great, little breeze (just enough to pinpoint the 'knob drift' problem), and nothing but wakes over one foot. The new Yamaha ran like a top. One of these days I'll see how fast it'll push that Key West. We're still very happy with the boat. Oh, and I didn't feel too 'foolish' either! Knob drift? Yeah, the thing Harry was complaining about on Chuck's Island. The position of the knob, when going straight, will vary with the direction of the wind. It doesn't mean there's a hydraulic steering problem or anything else, although I suppose it could. Why are you having a problem handling an 18 foot boat John?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Where did John say he was having trouble handling the boat, idiot? Besides, I've had a hell of a time getting a 17' bass boat on a trailer in cross winds. |
#29
posted to rec.boats
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Boating today...
On Jul 4, 10:47*pm, HK wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:55:04 -0400, John H. wrote: On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:20:07 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:14:26 -0400, John H. wrote: was a blast. We went to a boaters' beach in Belmont Bay. Shared the place with about 50 other boats and had a great time. Went over to our old stomping grounds in Mattawoman Creek only to find the 'beach' overrun with hydrilla. No boats anywhere. Weather was great, little breeze (just enough to pinpoint the 'knob drift' problem), and nothing but wakes over one foot. The new Yamaha ran like a top. One of these days I'll see how fast it'll push that Key West. We're still very happy with the boat. Oh, and I didn't feel too 'foolish' either! Knob drift? Yeah, the thing Harry was complaining about on Chuck's Island. The position of the knob, when going straight, will vary with the direction of the wind. It doesn't mean there's a hydraulic steering problem or anything else, although I suppose it could. Um....that's not a "problem" as such - it's entirely normal when adjusting for windage you will naturally turn into or away from windage changing the position of the wind. Remember you have what is essentially a bay boat with no real draft to keep you from moving when the wind gets up. - in particular if you are just "cruising" along at a relatively slow speed. *You will have better control as you speed up. Eventually, your helm will make a 360 degree turn on you - the hydraulics aren't pressurized so there will always be some slop in the system and it will vary with air temp - even your console will have some effect on the expansion and contraction of the steering control's hydraulic fluid. That's one of the little annoyances of light hydraulic steering on small boats. *In the eight years I've owned the Ranger, my helm has spun around 360 or eve more than that. Why did you opt for the knob? The wind is NOT the issue. Good grief. The wandering knob syndrome is normal for Seastar hydraulic steering systems. It's mentioned in the manuals that come with the steering system..- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - If you know this, why did you have to ask about it at Chuck's? |
#30
posted to rec.boats
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Boating today...
On Jul 5, 8:31*am, HK wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:47:54 -0400, HK wrote: Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:55:04 -0400, John H. wrote: On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:20:07 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:14:26 -0400, John H. wrote: was a blast. We went to a boaters' beach in Belmont Bay. Shared the place with about 50 other boats and had a great time. Went over to our old stomping grounds in Mattawoman Creek only to find the 'beach' overrun with hydrilla. No boats anywhere. Weather was great, little breeze (just enough to pinpoint the 'knob drift' problem), and nothing but wakes over one foot. The new Yamaha ran like a top. One of these days I'll see how fast it'll push that Key West. We're still very happy with the boat. Oh, and I didn't feel too 'foolish' either! Knob drift? Yeah, the thing Harry was complaining about on Chuck's Island. The position of the knob, when going straight, will vary with the direction of the wind. It doesn't mean there's a hydraulic steering problem or anything else, although I suppose it could. Um....that's not a "problem" as such - it's entirely normal when adjusting for windage you will naturally turn into or away from windage changing the position of the wind. Remember you have what is essentially a bay boat with no real draft to keep you from moving when the wind gets up. - in particular if you are just "cruising" along at a relatively slow speed. *You will have better control as you speed up. Eventually, your helm will make a 360 degree turn on you - the hydraulics aren't pressurized so there will always be some slop in the system and it will vary with air temp - even your console will have some effect on the expansion and contraction of the steering control's hydraulic fluid. That's one of the little annoyances of light hydraulic steering on small boats. *In the eight years I've owned the Ranger, my helm has spun around 360 or eve more than that. Why did you opt for the knob? The wind is NOT the issue. Good grief. The wandering knob syndrome is normal for Seastar hydraulic steering systems. It's mentioned in the manuals that come with the steering system. Yesh - and who told you that? It wasn't the manual. And I'd love to debate the relative positions of the helm when steering into or away from wind, but I don't feel like it. Who told me that? A "techie" guy on a real boating discussion board, who backed up what he said with a quote from the manual.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Show us, liar. |
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