Eisboch wrote:
More on helm positions .... or semi-worthless nautical information ....

I never knew this until we had the Grand Banks. By tradition, dating back
to the great sailing ships, the helm had one spoke that was marked in some
fashion to indicate that the rudder was midships when the marked spoke was
in the upright position.
There's a name for this mark that escapes me, but the Grand Banks carried on
this nautical tradition.

Here are pictures of the lower and upper station helms. In the case of the
GB, one spoke had rings turned into it on a lathe to mark the midship spoke.
They are indicated by the red arrows:

The GB had cable steering. I can guarantee that the marked spoke would be
in different positions when maintaining a steady course in different wind
conditions.

http://www.eisboch.com/lowerhelmmark.jpg

http://www.eisboch.com/upperhelmmark.jpg

Eisboch





Indeed, but that wasn't the issue *I* was discussing.

John H. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 08:20:54 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

More on helm positions .... or semi-worthless nautical information ....

I never knew this until we had the Grand Banks. By tradition, dating back
to the great sailing ships, the helm had one spoke that was marked in some
fashion to indicate that the rudder was midships when the marked spoke was
in the upright position.
There's a name for this mark that escapes me, but the Grand Banks carried on
this nautical tradition.

Here are pictures of the lower and upper station helms. In the case of the
GB, one spoke had rings turned into it on a lathe to mark the midship spoke.
They are indicated by the red arrows:

The GB had cable steering. I can guarantee that the marked spoke would be
in different positions when maintaining a steady course in different wind
conditions.

http://www.eisboch.com/lowerhelmmark.jpg

http://www.eisboch.com/upperhelmmark.jpg

Eisboch



If one thinks that wind direction and speed won't affect helm position,
they've never watched a plane land with a crosswind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX3S5...eature=related

I wonder if that pilot has his rudder turned a little?


D'oh. You really don't get it.

Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

We're not talking about the same thing here, I don't believe.

I'm talking about the engine or rudder being entirely amidships, in no
apparent wind or current, and the knob on the wheel being wherever the
hell it feels like being. You and Herring talking about the engine or
rudder being used to maintain a course during the impact of wind, current
or wave action.

There's a difference, a big one.



But, aren't *you* the one who chastised JohnH that "it's not the wind"?

Eisboch




Once again, we are discussing entirely different subjects.

Of course your wheel and the knob attached to it will not be in the same
position if you are correcting for course and current as it would be if
you were heading straight ahead without any wind or current. D'oh.
Apparently Herring thought it would be otherwise.

"Gosharoonie, I had to turn the helm a bit to keep going "straight"
because of the crosswind." *That* seemed to be his complaint.

Well, of course.

That wasn't the issue I brought up on Chuck's or on the bigtime boating
tech discussion subboard to which I referred.

Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:47:54 -0400, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:55:04 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:20:07 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:14:26 -0400, John H.
wrote:

was a blast. We went to a boaters' beach in Belmont Bay. Shared the
place
with about 50 other boats and had a great time. Went over to our old
stomping grounds in Mattawoman Creek only to find the 'beach'
overrun with
hydrilla. No boats anywhere.

Weather was great, little breeze (just enough to pinpoint the 'knob
drift'
problem), and nothing but wakes over one foot. The new Yamaha ran
like a
top. One of these days I'll see how fast it'll push that Key West.
We're
still very happy with the boat.

Oh, and I didn't feel too 'foolish' either!
Knob drift?
Yeah, the thing Harry was complaining about on Chuck's Island. The
position
of the knob, when going straight, will vary with the direction of the
wind.
It doesn't mean there's a hydraulic steering problem or anything else,
although I suppose it could.
Um....that's not a "problem" as such - it's entirely normal when
adjusting for windage you will naturally turn into or away from
windage changing the position of the wind.

Remember you have what is essentially a bay boat with no real draft to
keep you from moving when the wind gets up. - in particular if you are
just "cruising" along at a relatively slow speed. You will have
better control as you speed up.

Eventually, your helm will make a 360 degree turn on you - the
hydraulics aren't pressurized so there will always be some slop in the
system and it will vary with air temp - even your console will have
some effect on the expansion and contraction of the steering control's
hydraulic fluid.

That's one of the little annoyances of light hydraulic steering on
small boats. In the eight years I've owned the Ranger, my helm has
spun around 360 or eve more than that.

Why did you opt for the knob?
The wind is NOT the issue. Good grief.
The wandering knob syndrome is normal for Seastar hydraulic steering
systems. It's mentioned in the manuals that come with the steering
system.
Yesh - and who told you that?

It wasn't the manual.

And I'd love to debate the relative positions of the helm when
steering into or away from wind, but I don't feel like it.

Who told me that? A "techie" guy on a real boating discussion board, who
backed up what he said with a quote from the manual.




Your "techie" is full of it.

Hydraulic systems are capable of very fine and repeatable positioning due to
the non-compressibility of the fluid.
They are used often over cable or pneumatic systems when fine positioning
control is required because they overcome the "sticky" nature of pneumatics
and the stretching of cables. In the business I was in we used air over
oil hydraulic systems to precisely move and locate 500 lb objects to within
thousands of an inch.

If the hydraulic steering system has not been purged of all air, or if there
is a leak, I can accept the helm position non-repeatability. But, if
leak-free and purged of all air, it should be perfectly repeatable.

It's the cross wind.

Eisboch



Hehehe. Sure. We're talking a fairly "el cheapo" boat system here,
fella. In the business you were in , your air over hydraulic system cost
a bit more than half a large.

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:47:54 -0400, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:55:04 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:20:07 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:14:26 -0400, John H.
wrote:

was a blast. We went to a boaters' beach in Belmont Bay. Shared the place
with about 50 other boats and had a great time. Went over to our old
stomping grounds in Mattawoman Creek only to find the 'beach' overrun with
hydrilla. No boats anywhere.

Weather was great, little breeze (just enough to pinpoint the 'knob drift'
problem), and nothing but wakes over one foot. The new Yamaha ran like a
top. One of these days I'll see how fast it'll push that Key West. We're
still very happy with the boat.

Oh, and I didn't feel too 'foolish' either!
Knob drift?
Yeah, the thing Harry was complaining about on Chuck's Island. The position
of the knob, when going straight, will vary with the direction of the wind.
It doesn't mean there's a hydraulic steering problem or anything else,
although I suppose it could.
Um....that's not a "problem" as such - it's entirely normal when
adjusting for windage you will naturally turn into or away from
windage changing the position of the wind.

Remember you have what is essentially a bay boat with no real draft to
keep you from moving when the wind gets up. - in particular if you are
just "cruising" along at a relatively slow speed. You will have
better control as you speed up.

Eventually, your helm will make a 360 degree turn on you - the
hydraulics aren't pressurized so there will always be some slop in the
system and it will vary with air temp - even your console will have
some effect on the expansion and contraction of the steering control's
hydraulic fluid.

That's one of the little annoyances of light hydraulic steering on
small boats. In the eight years I've owned the Ranger, my helm has
spun around 360 or eve more than that.

Why did you opt for the knob?
The wind is NOT the issue. Good grief.
The wandering knob syndrome is normal for Seastar hydraulic steering
systems. It's mentioned in the manuals that come with the steering system.

Yesh - and who told you that?

It wasn't the manual.

And I'd love to debate the relative positions of the helm when
steering into or away from wind, but I don't feel like it.

Harry is acting all pompous because JohnH is discussing a question he
asked in another post. If you had not told him why, Harry still would
be wandering around in the dark.

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"HK" wrote in message
. ..



Who told me that? A "techie" guy on a real boating discussion board, who
backed up what he said with a quote from the manual.




Your "techie" is full of it.

Hydraulic systems are capable of very fine and repeatable positioning due
to the non-compressibility of the fluid.
They are used often over cable or pneumatic systems when fine positioning
control is required because they overcome the "sticky" nature of
pneumatics and the stretching of cables. In the business I was in we
used air over oil hydraulic systems to precisely move and locate 500 lb
objects to within thousands of an inch.

If the hydraulic steering system has not been purged of all air, or if
there is a leak, I can accept the helm position non-repeatability. But,
if leak-free and purged of all air, it should be perfectly repeatable.

It's the cross wind.

Eisboch

To be sure, if you see Krause's name anywhere in a thread, you will be
seeing a lot of horse **** being thrown around.
Cross wind will cause you to have to adjust helm position to maintain a
straight course but I don't think that is the complaint. the issue is that
when the boat is at rest and the engine is centered, the wheel position has
changed from it's original position.
I just took a peek at the Sea Star Web site. It seems there check valves and
pressure relief valves built into the system. A leak in a check valve or
operation of a pressure relief valve could be the cause of what these guys
are seeing. No? Not to mention seal leakage. I don't think these are
precision devices like the ones Eisboch is used to dealing with. The subject
has been beat to death and if anyone doesn't like the fact that the suicide
knob wont stay at 11 O' Clock, they should contact Teleflex for relief. Or
they could have Eisboch's old company design and build a precision $500,000
helm.

On Jul 4, 9:32*pm, JimH wrote:
On Jul 4, 9:20*pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:





On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:14:26 -0400, John H.

wrote:
was a blast. We went to a boaters' beach in Belmont Bay. Shared the place
with about 50 other boats and had a great time. Went over to our old
stomping grounds in Mattawoman Creek only to find the 'beach' overrun with
hydrilla. No boats anywhere.

Weather was great, little breeze (just enough to pinpoint the 'knob drift'
problem), and nothing but wakes over one foot. The new Yamaha ran like a
top. One of these days I'll see how fast it'll push that Key West. We're
still very happy with the boat.

Oh, and I didn't feel too 'foolish' either!

Knob drift?

Operator error.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Idiot.

On Jul 4, 9:54*pm, JimH wrote:
On Jul 4, 9:55*pm, John H. wrote:





On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:20:07 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing

wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:14:26 -0400, John H.
wrote:

was a blast. We went to a boaters' beach in Belmont Bay. Shared the place
with about 50 other boats and had a great time. Went over to our old
stomping grounds in Mattawoman Creek only to find the 'beach' overrun with
hydrilla. No boats anywhere.

Weather was great, little breeze (just enough to pinpoint the 'knob drift'
problem), and nothing but wakes over one foot. The new Yamaha ran like a
top. One of these days I'll see how fast it'll push that Key West. We're
still very happy with the boat.

Oh, and I didn't feel too 'foolish' either!

Knob drift?

Yeah, the thing Harry was complaining about on Chuck's Island. The position
of the knob, when going straight, will vary with the direction of the wind.
It doesn't mean there's a hydraulic steering problem or anything else,
although I suppose it could.

Why are you having a problem handling an 18 foot boat John?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Where did John say he was having trouble handling the boat, idiot?
Besides, I've had a hell of a time getting a 17' bass boat on a
trailer in cross winds.

On Jul 4, 10:47*pm, HK wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:55:04 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:20:07 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:14:26 -0400, John H.
wrote:

was a blast. We went to a boaters' beach in Belmont Bay. Shared the place
with about 50 other boats and had a great time. Went over to our old
stomping grounds in Mattawoman Creek only to find the 'beach' overrun with
hydrilla. No boats anywhere.

Weather was great, little breeze (just enough to pinpoint the 'knob drift'
problem), and nothing but wakes over one foot. The new Yamaha ran like a
top. One of these days I'll see how fast it'll push that Key West. We're
still very happy with the boat.

Oh, and I didn't feel too 'foolish' either!
Knob drift?
Yeah, the thing Harry was complaining about on Chuck's Island. The position
of the knob, when going straight, will vary with the direction of the wind.
It doesn't mean there's a hydraulic steering problem or anything else,
although I suppose it could.

Um....that's not a "problem" as such - it's entirely normal when
adjusting for windage you will naturally turn into or away from
windage changing the position of the wind.

Remember you have what is essentially a bay boat with no real draft to
keep you from moving when the wind gets up. - in particular if you are
just "cruising" along at a relatively slow speed. *You will have
better control as you speed up.

Eventually, your helm will make a 360 degree turn on you - the
hydraulics aren't pressurized so there will always be some slop in the
system and it will vary with air temp - even your console will have
some effect on the expansion and contraction of the steering control's
hydraulic fluid.

That's one of the little annoyances of light hydraulic steering on
small boats. *In the eight years I've owned the Ranger, my helm has
spun around 360 or eve more than that.

Why did you opt for the knob?

The wind is NOT the issue. Good grief.
The wandering knob syndrome is normal for Seastar hydraulic steering
systems. It's mentioned in the manuals that come with the steering system..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you know this, why did you have to ask about it at Chuck's?

On Jul 5, 8:31*am, HK wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:47:54 -0400, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:55:04 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:20:07 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:14:26 -0400, John H.
wrote:

was a blast. We went to a boaters' beach in Belmont Bay. Shared the place
with about 50 other boats and had a great time. Went over to our old
stomping grounds in Mattawoman Creek only to find the 'beach' overrun with
hydrilla. No boats anywhere.

Weather was great, little breeze (just enough to pinpoint the 'knob drift'
problem), and nothing but wakes over one foot. The new Yamaha ran like a
top. One of these days I'll see how fast it'll push that Key West. We're
still very happy with the boat.

Oh, and I didn't feel too 'foolish' either!
Knob drift?
Yeah, the thing Harry was complaining about on Chuck's Island. The position
of the knob, when going straight, will vary with the direction of the wind.
It doesn't mean there's a hydraulic steering problem or anything else,
although I suppose it could.
Um....that's not a "problem" as such - it's entirely normal when
adjusting for windage you will naturally turn into or away from
windage changing the position of the wind.

Remember you have what is essentially a bay boat with no real draft to
keep you from moving when the wind gets up. - in particular if you are
just "cruising" along at a relatively slow speed. *You will have
better control as you speed up.

Eventually, your helm will make a 360 degree turn on you - the
hydraulics aren't pressurized so there will always be some slop in the
system and it will vary with air temp - even your console will have
some effect on the expansion and contraction of the steering control's
hydraulic fluid.

That's one of the little annoyances of light hydraulic steering on
small boats. *In the eight years I've owned the Ranger, my helm has
spun around 360 or eve more than that.

Why did you opt for the knob?
The wind is NOT the issue. Good grief.
The wandering knob syndrome is normal for Seastar hydraulic steering
systems. It's mentioned in the manuals that come with the steering system.

Yesh - and who told you that?

It wasn't the manual.

And I'd love to debate the relative positions of the helm when
steering into or away from wind, but I don't feel like it.

Who told me that? A "techie" guy on a real boating discussion board, who
backed up what he said with a quote from the manual.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Show us, liar.