"John H." wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:58:53 -0800, "Calif Bill"

wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:29:59 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:20:49 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:33:34 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:25?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing

Talk to middle and high school teachers about NCLB and see what they
say about the system.

It's a total disaster. ?And in states that require mainstreaming of
those children who are developmentally, physically, mentally or
emotionally "challenged", it's almost impossible to achieve the
standards required by NCLB.


Both of my kids are teaching in the classroom. My son (HS Social
Studies) as a career and my daughter (MS Science) as a step toward
eventually becoming a school administrator.

The have been some positive aspects of the NCLB. For instance,
teachers must demonstrate a level of expertise in the subjec they
teach. The schools can't simply hire a guy because he's a great
football coach and then say, "Oh, yeah...and you'll be teaching two
periods of astronomy every morning so better read a chapter or two
ahead of the students in the text book. Oh, and next semester you'll
be teaching advanced trig, but don't worry about that- nobody will
understand the subject well enought to realize you have no facility
what-so-ever for math."

Well, I would think that's a slight exaggeration. In CT, MA, RI and
NY you have to be certified to teach both subject and grade level.
Maybe it's different out there in the Great Northwest, but it's been
that way here for at least 30 years and longer as Mrs. Wave will be
finishing her 38th year this June. As far as I know, the only thing
that the NCLB act did was formalize that practice nationally - I can't
speak to areas outside of NE.

But in general, the system is not so good. Far too many districts are
strictly "teaching to the test". My son has several classes of HS
freshmen who are spending the entire 9th grade simply studying to pas
the 10th grade NCLB test- it's that critical to the district that
nearly all the 10th graders pass so that the district will continue to
get federal school dollars.

That's about the size of it ok.

Horse****.

Not at all - it's a fact.

Ask the next question - do the teachers know the test questions?

What do you think they teach to?

If so, then the whole thing's been compromised anyway.

That's the point.

True. Have been complaints out here of the teaching to the test. No
cures,
they still teach to the test.


Easily fixed, if so desired. Don't let the teachers see the test.
--
John H

See my reply about a pool of questions.

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:11:25 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:58:53 -0800, "Calif Bill"

wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:29:59 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:20:49 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:33:34 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:25?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing

Talk to middle and high school teachers about NCLB and see what they
say about the system.

It's a total disaster. ?And in states that require mainstreaming of
those children who are developmentally, physically, mentally or
emotionally "challenged", it's almost impossible to achieve the
standards required by NCLB.


Both of my kids are teaching in the classroom. My son (HS Social
Studies) as a career and my daughter (MS Science) as a step toward
eventually becoming a school administrator.

The have been some positive aspects of the NCLB. For instance,
teachers must demonstrate a level of expertise in the subjec they
teach. The schools can't simply hire a guy because he's a great
football coach and then say, "Oh, yeah...and you'll be teaching two
periods of astronomy every morning so better read a chapter or two
ahead of the students in the text book. Oh, and next semester you'll
be teaching advanced trig, but don't worry about that- nobody will
understand the subject well enought to realize you have no facility
what-so-ever for math."

Well, I would think that's a slight exaggeration. In CT, MA, RI and
NY you have to be certified to teach both subject and grade level.
Maybe it's different out there in the Great Northwest, but it's been
that way here for at least 30 years and longer as Mrs. Wave will be
finishing her 38th year this June. As far as I know, the only thing
that the NCLB act did was formalize that practice nationally - I can't
speak to areas outside of NE.

But in general, the system is not so good. Far too many districts are
strictly "teaching to the test". My son has several classes of HS
freshmen who are spending the entire 9th grade simply studying to pas
the 10th grade NCLB test- it's that critical to the district that
nearly all the 10th graders pass so that the district will continue to
get federal school dollars.

That's about the size of it ok.

Horse****.

Not at all - it's a fact.

Ask the next question - do the teachers know the test questions?

What do you think they teach to?

If so, then the whole thing's been compromised anyway.

That's the point.

True. Have been complaints out here of the teaching to the test. No
cures,
they still teach to the test.


Easily fixed, if so desired. Don't let the teachers see the test.
--
John H

See my reply about a pool of questions.


Easily fixed. Make the pool so big that the standards must be achieved by
learning all the problems, or don't give the teachers the pool.

Problem solved.
--
John H

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:11:25 -0800, "Calif Bill"

wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:58:53 -0800, "Calif Bill"

wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
m...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:29:59 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:20:49 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:33:34 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:25?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing

Talk to middle and high school teachers about NCLB and see what
they
say about the system.

It's a total disaster. ?And in states that require mainstreaming
of
those children who are developmentally, physically, mentally or
emotionally "challenged", it's almost impossible to achieve the
standards required by NCLB.


Both of my kids are teaching in the classroom. My son (HS Social
Studies) as a career and my daughter (MS Science) as a step toward
eventually becoming a school administrator.

The have been some positive aspects of the NCLB. For instance,
teachers must demonstrate a level of expertise in the subjec they
teach. The schools can't simply hire a guy because he's a great
football coach and then say, "Oh, yeah...and you'll be teaching two
periods of astronomy every morning so better read a chapter or two
ahead of the students in the text book. Oh, and next semester you'll
be teaching advanced trig, but don't worry about that- nobody will
understand the subject well enought to realize you have no facility
what-so-ever for math."

Well, I would think that's a slight exaggeration. In CT, MA, RI and
NY you have to be certified to teach both subject and grade level.
Maybe it's different out there in the Great Northwest, but it's been
that way here for at least 30 years and longer as Mrs. Wave will be
finishing her 38th year this June. As far as I know, the only thing
that the NCLB act did was formalize that practice nationally - I
can't
speak to areas outside of NE.

But in general, the system is not so good. Far too many districts
are
strictly "teaching to the test". My son has several classes of HS
freshmen who are spending the entire 9th grade simply studying to
pas
the 10th grade NCLB test- it's that critical to the district that
nearly all the 10th graders pass so that the district will continue
to
get federal school dollars.

That's about the size of it ok.

Horse****.

Not at all - it's a fact.

Ask the next question - do the teachers know the test questions?

What do you think they teach to?

If so, then the whole thing's been compromised anyway.

That's the point.

True. Have been complaints out here of the teaching to the test. No
cures,
they still teach to the test.


Easily fixed, if so desired. Don't let the teachers see the test.
--
John H

See my reply about a pool of questions.


Easily fixed. Make the pool so big that the standards must be achieved by
learning all the problems, or don't give the teachers the pool.

Problem solved.
--
John H

The pool by definition has to be limited. And the school districts
encourage teaching to the test. If they have lower ratings, it impacts
their income.

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:51:21 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:11:25 -0800, "Calif Bill"

wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:58:53 -0800, "Calif Bill"

wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
om...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:29:59 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:20:49 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:33:34 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:25?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing

Talk to middle and high school teachers about NCLB and see what
they
say about the system.

It's a total disaster. ?And in states that require mainstreaming
of
those children who are developmentally, physically, mentally or
emotionally "challenged", it's almost impossible to achieve the
standards required by NCLB.


Both of my kids are teaching in the classroom. My son (HS Social
Studies) as a career and my daughter (MS Science) as a step toward
eventually becoming a school administrator.

The have been some positive aspects of the NCLB. For instance,
teachers must demonstrate a level of expertise in the subjec they
teach. The schools can't simply hire a guy because he's a great
football coach and then say, "Oh, yeah...and you'll be teaching two
periods of astronomy every morning so better read a chapter or two
ahead of the students in the text book. Oh, and next semester you'll
be teaching advanced trig, but don't worry about that- nobody will
understand the subject well enought to realize you have no facility
what-so-ever for math."

Well, I would think that's a slight exaggeration. In CT, MA, RI and
NY you have to be certified to teach both subject and grade level.
Maybe it's different out there in the Great Northwest, but it's been
that way here for at least 30 years and longer as Mrs. Wave will be
finishing her 38th year this June. As far as I know, the only thing
that the NCLB act did was formalize that practice nationally - I
can't
speak to areas outside of NE.

But in general, the system is not so good. Far too many districts
are
strictly "teaching to the test". My son has several classes of HS
freshmen who are spending the entire 9th grade simply studying to
pas
the 10th grade NCLB test- it's that critical to the district that
nearly all the 10th graders pass so that the district will continue
to
get federal school dollars.

That's about the size of it ok.

Horse****.

Not at all - it's a fact.

Ask the next question - do the teachers know the test questions?

What do you think they teach to?

If so, then the whole thing's been compromised anyway.

That's the point.

True. Have been complaints out here of the teaching to the test. No
cures,
they still teach to the test.


Easily fixed, if so desired. Don't let the teachers see the test.
--
John H

See my reply about a pool of questions.


Easily fixed. Make the pool so big that the standards must be achieved by
learning all the problems, or don't give the teachers the pool.

Problem solved.
--
John H

The pool by definition has to be limited. And the school districts
encourage teaching to the test. If they have lower ratings, it impacts
their income.


Sounds like you and Tom have the same system.

So what happens in the classrooms? Do the students just get lists of
questions with the answers and memorize them?

It's strange that the system of teaching and testing to standards works
very well here, but is a mess in CT and CA. Sounds like it's purposely
being made a mess to provide political ammunition.

There are problems with getting the learning disabled and non-English
speaking students to meet the standards, but that's not reason to throw out
the use of standards.
--
John H