"Delburt D" wrote in message
news:ILn3j.15376$B21.15016@trndny07...


Just for the record, we are using a 15000 watt battery pack that weighs
828 lbs. Add to that the battery cable, 2/0 welding cable, the charger,
this is a plug in, Controllers etc.

With battery technology what it is today we are lucky to push a nice
little light weight hull like ours as much as we can. The future however
is looking brighter for much better batteries with higher capacity and
much less weight.

Where is the high capacity battery technology heading? The last major
advancement I am aware of was the development of lithium ion technology but
you don't see many of those in really big battery applications. Lithium can
also be a bit dicy in terms of handling (or getting wet) if I recall
correctly.

Seems like we are still stuck in the lead/acid age, either in wet cell or
AGM configurations despite many years of forecasts predicting major
technological breakthroughs in battery construction.

Eisboch

On Nov 29, 2:24 am, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Delburt D" wrote in message

news:ILn3j.15376$B21.15016@trndny07...



Just for the record, we are using a 15000 watt battery pack that weighs
828 lbs. Add to that the battery cable, 2/0 welding cable, the charger,
this is a plug in, Controllers etc.

With battery technology what it is today we are lucky to push a nice
little light weight hull like ours as much as we can. The future however
is looking brighter for much better batteries with higher capacity and
much less weight.

Where is the high capacity battery technology heading? The last major
advancement I am aware of was the development of lithium ion technology but
you don't see many of those in really big battery applications. Lithium can
also be a bit dicy in terms of handling (or getting wet) if I recall
correctly.

Seems like we are still stuck in the lead/acid age, either in wet cell or
AGM configurations despite many years of forecasts predicting major
technological breakthroughs in battery construction.

Eisboch

My little mahogany skiffs with an 8 horse will make a smaller carbon
footprint than the electric plants used to charge these things,
hopefully when I come here selling them in spring, I get such a warm
reception...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Delburt D" wrote in message
news:ILn3j.15376$B21.15016@trndny07...


Just for the record, we are using a 15000 watt battery pack that weighs
828 lbs. Add to that the battery cable, 2/0 welding cable, the charger,
this is a plug in, Controllers etc.

With battery technology what it is today we are lucky to push a nice
little light weight hull like ours as much as we can. The future however
is looking brighter for much better batteries with higher capacity and
much less weight.

Where is the high capacity battery technology heading? The last major
advancement I am aware of was the development of lithium ion technology
but you don't see many of those in really big battery applications.
Lithium can also be a bit dicy in terms of handling (or getting wet) if I
recall correctly.

Seems like we are still stuck in the lead/acid age, either in wet cell or
AGM configurations despite many years of forecasts predicting major
technological breakthroughs in battery construction.

Eisboch

Excellent Question! Actually there are several new advancements in Lithium
Ion technology. There is a company producing a nano based lithium Ion
battery that is half the weight of lead acid and can be charged and
discharged in six minute cycles. The batteries are quite expensive right
now but they are in production now. These are litteraly bullet proof. The
developers have run extreme punishment testing and the only thing that
happens is the batteries stop functioning. You would expect this to happen
if you shove a metal rod through the caseG

There are also Lithium Ion Phosphate batteries that are much lighter and
also have no issue with thermal runaway. Large battery packs require
battery management systems that control the charge of each cell.
Overcharging is the enemy of all batteries. Some of the new battery systems
have microprocessors built in that communicate with the main module
controlling the overall charge state of the entire bank.

There is also a company developing a super capacitor. We have been told by
the developer that he will be able to give us 15KW in a 100 lb package down
the road. While being a bit more expensive initially this will be a boon to
our boat, giving us the ability to either extend the range or performance
per charge.

Now all that being said. The charge rate of any battery system is limited
by the source. A typical dryer outlet , 240V @ 50A equals 12KW. If you
have a 60KW pack it will take about five hours to charge regardless of the
batteries being charged.

These developments are what made us decide to get into this market now. We
have plenty of potential customers out there that can use the performance
level we now have and as the batteries get better our market will grow.

All of the cells I have talked about are either in ramp up production or
prototype production showing good success in both areas.

Tom

wrote in message
...
On Nov 29, 2:24 am, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Delburt D" wrote in message

news:ILn3j.15376$B21.15016@trndny07...



Just for the record, we are using a 15000 watt battery pack that weighs
828 lbs. Add to that the battery cable, 2/0 welding cable, the charger,
this is a plug in, Controllers etc.

With battery technology what it is today we are lucky to push a nice
little light weight hull like ours as much as we can. The future
however
is looking brighter for much better batteries with higher capacity and
much less weight.

Where is the high capacity battery technology heading? The last major
advancement I am aware of was the development of lithium ion technology
but
you don't see many of those in really big battery applications. Lithium
can
also be a bit dicy in terms of handling (or getting wet) if I recall
correctly.

Seems like we are still stuck in the lead/acid age, either in wet cell or
AGM configurations despite many years of forecasts predicting major
technological breakthroughs in battery construction.

Eisboch

My little mahogany skiffs with an 8 horse will make a smaller carbon
footprint than the electric plants used to charge these things,
hopefully when I come here selling them in spring, I get such a warm
reception...

While we are looking at 15000 watt hours of power it still only takes $1.50
, ( ref $.10 / KW ) to fully charge the packs as is. Compare to $150 to
fill a 50 gal gas tank. I know we are talking a difference in performance
levels but you can still be out on the lake all day and not only make a much
smaller carbon foot print but also NO Carbon Monxide or burned oil residue
or any of the many other compounds created by burning gasoline in an
internal combustion engine.

Tom

"Delburt D" wrote in message
news:MgC3j.24064$rg1.16072@trndny04...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Delburt D" wrote in message
news:ILn3j.15376$B21.15016@trndny07...


Where is the high capacity battery technology heading? The last major
advancement I am aware of was the development of lithium ion technology
but you don't see many of those in really big battery applications.
Lithium can also be a bit dicy in terms of handling (or getting wet) if I
recall correctly.

Seems like we are still stuck in the lead/acid age, either in wet cell or
AGM configurations despite many years of forecasts predicting major
technological breakthroughs in battery construction.

Eisboch

Excellent Question! Actually there are several new advancements in
Lithium Ion technology. There is a company producing a nano based lithium
Ion battery that is half the weight of lead acid and can be charged and
discharged in six minute cycles. The batteries are quite expensive right
now but they are in production now. These are litteraly bullet proof.
The developers have run extreme punishment testing and the only thing that
happens is the batteries stop functioning. You would expect this to happen
if you shove a metal rod through the caseG

snipped for brevity


Excellent answer!

Thanks.

Eisboch

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:02:36 GMT, "Delburt D"
wrote:


"Eisboch" wrote in message
m...

"Delburt D" wrote in message
news:ILn3j.15376$B21.15016@trndny07...


Just for the record, we are using a 15000 watt battery pack that weighs
828 lbs. Add to that the battery cable, 2/0 welding cable, the charger,
this is a plug in, Controllers etc.

With battery technology what it is today we are lucky to push a nice
little light weight hull like ours as much as we can. The future however
is looking brighter for much better batteries with higher capacity and
much less weight.

Where is the high capacity battery technology heading? The last major
advancement I am aware of was the development of lithium ion technology
but you don't see many of those in really big battery applications.
Lithium can also be a bit dicy in terms of handling (or getting wet) if I
recall correctly.

Seems like we are still stuck in the lead/acid age, either in wet cell or
AGM configurations despite many years of forecasts predicting major
technological breakthroughs in battery construction.

Eisboch

Excellent Question! Actually there are several new advancements in Lithium
Ion technology. There is a company producing a nano based lithium Ion
battery that is half the weight of lead acid and can be charged and
discharged in six minute cycles. The batteries are quite expensive right
now but they are in production now. These are litteraly bullet proof. The
developers have run extreme punishment testing and the only thing that
happens is the batteries stop functioning. You would expect this to happen
if you shove a metal rod through the caseG

There are also Lithium Ion Phosphate batteries that are much lighter and
also have no issue with thermal runaway. Large battery packs require
battery management systems that control the charge of each cell.
Overcharging is the enemy of all batteries. Some of the new battery systems
have microprocessors built in that communicate with the main module
controlling the overall charge state of the entire bank.

There is also a company developing a super capacitor. We have been told by
the developer that he will be able to give us 15KW in a 100 lb package down
the road. While being a bit more expensive initially this will be a boon to
our boat, giving us the ability to either extend the range or performance
per charge.

Now all that being said. The charge rate of any battery system is limited
by the source. A typical dryer outlet , 240V @ 50A equals 12KW. If you
have a 60KW pack it will take about five hours to charge regardless of the
batteries being charged.

These developments are what made us decide to get into this market now. We
have plenty of potential customers out there that can use the performance
level we now have and as the batteries get better our market will grow.

All of the cells I have talked about are either in ramp up production or
prototype production showing good success in both areas.

I recall reading maybe 15 years ago about a development in electric
motors that made them much more efficient. It may have BS, and I'm
in the dark about how electricity works unless I flip the light
switch. It was a seemingly simple bit of rewiring, maybe adding an
electrical component.
Maybe it's actually in use, or maybe it *was* BS.
Anybody know if there was a breakthrough in making electric motors
more efficient in the recent past?

--Vic

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:59:14 -0500, wrote:



Rare earth magnets?

Excuse my ignorance on this, but is that like Kryptonite?

--Vic

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:21:27 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:12:52 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:05:58 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:59:14 -0500, wrote:



Rare earth magnets?

Excuse my ignorance on this, but is that like Kryptonite?

--Vic

No.

Another big breakthrough in electric motor efficiency is PWM, or
"pulse width modulation" used for controlling the speed. In the old
days, you slowed down a battery powered motor by using a resistor. PWM
slows down the motor without wasting nearly as much energy. It offers
no savings at full throttle, but anything below that, it conserves
power rather than simply converting it to heat. This was a big deal
when they started using it for electric trolling motors about 20 years
ago.


That may well be what I read about. I was going to mention something
about "resistor" or "rectifier" but since I am so unversed on electric
components didn't want to muddle it up.
I do recall that the use of the innovation went beyond trolling
motors, and that it basically applied to all motors, but the article
gave emphasis on industrial use because of power cost savings.

--Vic

It's actually a pretty simple concept. Rather than reducing voltage
with a variable resistor to slow the motor, you maintain the voltage,
but pulse it on and off very rapidly. You vary the motor speed by
varying the duty cycle of the pulses between longer or shorter bursts
of power "on" or "off". The motor is pretty dumb and can't tell the
difference.



Silicon Controled Rectifier or "SCR". Two basic types ... phase angle fired
or zero crossing. The zero crossing type generates less EMI and is
electrically "quieter".

They replaced the old variable resistance "rheostats" for light dimmers and
induction motor speed control (such as in ceiling fans, etc.)

Going back to Vic's question .... I think it was GE that introduced a super
efficient induction motor years ago for use in refrigerator compressors,
etc. I don't remember what made them more efficent though.

Eisboch

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:53:08 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

Anybody know if there was a breakthrough in making electric motors
more efficient in the recent past

Pulse Width Modulation.

All the cool trolling motors use it. :)

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:12:52 -0500, wrote:

Another big breakthrough in electric motor efficiency is PWM, or
"pulse width modulation" used for controlling the speed

Sorry - I didn't see your answer until it was too late.