wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.


That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.


Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

HK wrote:


Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Harry,
If the Union is able to provide a better product with increased
productivity and competitive prices as you say, why are they continuing
to lose market share?

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:29:51 -0500, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

HK wrote:


Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

If the Union is able to provide a better product with increased
productivity and competitive prices as you say, why are they continuing
to lose market share?

That's the point - they don't pay competitive wages. Unnion wages are
always higher by a factor of 25/30% higher than a similar gualified
wage earner.

Take Painters for example. A Union painter base is $26 an hour to a
max of $30 here in CT. Work rules are restrictive in terms of hours,
breaks and travel. I can hire an equally qualified non-Union painter
for less than $15 who will do the job in less time and, in my
experience, better.

I'll give you a work restriction example. When I was helping my
dealer at a boat show, the venue electricians were Union. We needed
to run a 6' extension cord from an outlet right behind the display to
a DVD player. We ran the extension cord, secured it behind the
display with 200 MPH tape to the concrete floor and hooked it up to
the DVD player.

NO NO NO. Had to have an electrician do that. So the electrician
came along and did exactly the same thing we did only it cost the
dealer $80 for five minutes work.

Unions have their place and I am not anti-Union. However they have
priced themselves out of the market place becoming a business just
like any other business.

In my lifetime, I have even seen Unions within Union organizations
strike Unions.

That kind of says it all.

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...


I'll give you a work restriction example. When I was helping my
dealer at a boat show, the venue electricians were Union. We needed
to run a 6' extension cord from an outlet right behind the display to
a DVD player. We ran the extension cord, secured it behind the
display with 200 MPH tape to the concrete floor and hooked it up to
the DVD player.

NO NO NO. Had to have an electrician do that. So the electrician
came along and did exactly the same thing we did only it cost the
dealer $80 for five minutes work.


Having exhibited at trade shows and conferences for many years and having to
pay through the nose to have a union electrician plug in an extension cord
at our booth, I feel your pain.

Licenced union electricians are usually well trained, competent and
qualified.
Non-union licenced electricians are usually well trained, competent and
qualified.

What do "you" have in your wallet?

Eisboch

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...


I'll give you a work restriction example. When I was helping my
dealer at a boat show, the venue electricians were Union. We needed
to run a 6' extension cord from an outlet right behind the display to
a DVD player. We ran the extension cord, secured it behind the
display with 200 MPH tape to the concrete floor and hooked it up to
the DVD player.

NO NO NO. Had to have an electrician do that. So the electrician
came along and did exactly the same thing we did only it cost the
dealer $80 for five minutes work.


Having exhibited at trade shows and conferences for many years and having
to pay through the nose to have a union electrician plug in an extension
cord at our booth, I feel your pain.

Licenced union electricians are usually well trained, competent and
qualified.
Non-union licenced electricians are usually well trained, competent and
qualified.

What do "you" have in your wallet?

Eisboch

And how much stuff was stolen from the exhibits?

On Nov 24, 5:04�am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
That's the point - they don't pay competitive wages. Unnion wages are
always higher by a factor of 25/30% higher than a similar gualified
wage earner.

Take Painters for example. �A Union painter base is $26 an hour to a
max of $30 here in CT. �Work rules are restrictive in terms of hours,
breaks and travel. �I can hire an equally qualified non-Union painter
for less than $15 who will do the job in less time and, in my
experience, better.


Pero usted debe decir el espa�ol para dirigirse una persona
complaciente a trabajar para quince d�lares por hora :-)

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:54:50 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Nov 24, 5:04?am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
That's the point - they don't pay competitive wages. Unnion wages are
always higher by a factor of 25/30% higher than a similar gualified
wage earner.

Take Painters for example. ?A Union painter base is $26 an hour to a
max of $30 here in CT. ?Work rules are restrictive in terms of hours,
breaks and travel. ?I can hire an equally qualified non-Union painter
for less than $15 who will do the job in less time and, in my
experience, better.


Pero usted debe decir el espa?ol para dirigirse una persona
complaciente a trabajar para quince d?lares por hora :-)

Creb hfgrq qror qrpve ry rfcn?by cnen qvevtvefr han crefban
pbzcynpvragr n genonwne cnen dhvapr q?ynerf cbe uben :-)

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


Creb hfgrq qror qrpve ry rfcn?by cnen qvevtvefr han crefban
pbzcynpvragr n genonwne cnen dhvapr q?ynerf cbe uben :-)


"I shoulda bought a Yamaha..."

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:24:29 -0500, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


Creb hfgrq qror qrpve ry rfcn?by cnen qvevtvefr han crefban
pbzcynpvragr n genonwne cnen dhvapr q?ynerf cbe uben :-)

"I shoulda bought a Yamaha..."

Wow - must have used a Union translator.

It said "Yamaha sucks, ETECs rule."

Freakin Union contractors. :)

On Nov 24, 7:04 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:29:51 -0500, "Reginald P. Smithers III"





wrote:
HK wrote:

Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

If the Union is able to provide a better product with increased
productivity and competitive prices as you say, why are they continuing
to lose market share?

That's the point - they don't pay competitive wages. Unnion wages are
always higher by a factor of 25/30% higher than a similar gualified
wage earner.

Take Painters for example. A Union painter base is $26 an hour to a
max of $30 here in CT. Work rules are restrictive in terms of hours,
breaks and travel. I can hire an equally qualified non-Union painter
for less than $15 who will do the job in less time and, in my
experience, better.

I'll give you a work restriction example. When I was helping my
dealer at a boat show, the venue electricians were Union. We needed
to run a 6' extension cord from an outlet right behind the display to
a DVD player. We ran the extension cord, secured it behind the
display with 200 MPH tape to the concrete floor and hooked it up to
the DVD player.

NO NO NO. Had to have an electrician do that. So the electrician
came along and did exactly the same thing we did only it cost the
dealer $80 for five minutes work.

Unions have their place and I am not anti-Union. However they have
priced themselves out of the market place becoming a business just
like any other business.

In my lifetime, I have even seen Unions within Union organizations
strike Unions.

That kind of says it all.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



A friend of mine was working a booth for his regulator company at a
rather large Auto-electric show in a stadiums convention center. There
was power to all the booths, and the ownder of the company was
providing cpmplimentery coffee and donuts. About an hour after opening
up the display, some guy came over and was a real hot head, and
started to confiscate the coffee machine and the donut boxs. After
some rather loud words, the guy grabbing the goods exploded with the
idea that there would be no more of that because the concessions were
union and they SELL the same thing at the kitchens. Words got hotter,
and the union dude took the coffe pot and boxs and threw them in a
close by dumpster. The company president that had the booth, called
the cops and pressed formal charges on the guy for tresspassing,
theft, and destruction of personal property, and probably some more
stuff as well. After doing the routine and questioning the union guy,
the guy got louder and beligerant . They walked the union dude out in
handcuffs. I really don't rememeber the total outcome of the big
picture, but the Company owner/CEO was rich enough, he would tie this
guy up in court for "as long as it takes". I do know that one
arguement that was allowed in court was that the Pres/ceo had PAID to
rent the space, and that it was his to do with what ever he pleased,
just like renting a house and that this arguement was upheld by the
court. And seeing the convention center had no fine print in the
rental contract about ofering complimentary food items, the union dude
was found guilty of the above charges, and had to make restitution. I
don't know if he personally paid for the damages or if the Union did
and I suppose it doesn't matter. But my point is that if they guy had
simply asked the CEO not to hand out the free goodies, I'm sure he
would have graciously complied, and there wouldn't have been a rukus.
But hwne you start shoving your weight around, somebody will
eventually shove back, and shove harder.