HK wrote:


Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Harry,
If the Union is able to provide a better product with increased
productivity and competitive prices as you say, why are they continuing
to lose market share?

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:29:51 -0500, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

HK wrote:


Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

If the Union is able to provide a better product with increased
productivity and competitive prices as you say, why are they continuing
to lose market share?

That's the point - they don't pay competitive wages. Unnion wages are
always higher by a factor of 25/30% higher than a similar gualified
wage earner.

Take Painters for example. A Union painter base is $26 an hour to a
max of $30 here in CT. Work rules are restrictive in terms of hours,
breaks and travel. I can hire an equally qualified non-Union painter
for less than $15 who will do the job in less time and, in my
experience, better.

I'll give you a work restriction example. When I was helping my
dealer at a boat show, the venue electricians were Union. We needed
to run a 6' extension cord from an outlet right behind the display to
a DVD player. We ran the extension cord, secured it behind the
display with 200 MPH tape to the concrete floor and hooked it up to
the DVD player.

NO NO NO. Had to have an electrician do that. So the electrician
came along and did exactly the same thing we did only it cost the
dealer $80 for five minutes work.

Unions have their place and I am not anti-Union. However they have
priced themselves out of the market place becoming a business just
like any other business.

In my lifetime, I have even seen Unions within Union organizations
strike Unions.

That kind of says it all.

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:49:29 -0500, HK wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.

That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.

Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations.

Which is no different than a trade school, except their time in
training is considered as apprenticeship time which means that they
have to complete OJT as an apprentice.

I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Are they paid while they are in Union training?

The whole point of apprenticeship is to pay your dues, learn your
trade and work under the direction of a Master tradesman.

Not jump immediately to Journeyman status.

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions themselves
have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the Job Corp to
provide proper training or job placement for grads.

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:49:29 -0500, HK wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.
That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.
Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations.

Which is no different than a trade school, except their time in
training is considered as apprenticeship time which means that they
have to complete OJT as an apprentice.

I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Are they paid while they are in Union training?

The whole point of apprenticeship is to pay your dues, learn your
trade and work under the direction of a Master tradesman.

Not jump immediately to Journeyman status.


If it takes three to five years to complete an apprenticeship program,
how is the graduate jumping immediately to journeyman status?

Of course they are paid while being trained. They are productive from
the end of the first week. The first week, typically, is spent on safety
training so when they get out to the jobsite as helpers, they are less
likely to get killed. On an electrical job, for example, new apprentices
usually are out on the job running wire, prepping wire, cleaning up. Do
you think they should not be paid for these activities?

I happen to know a lot about union apprenticeship programs in the
masonry, electrical and plumbing trades. None of the programs is aimed
at turning out low-end residential workers who build houses. That's for
the unskilled work force.

On Nov 24, 7:54 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:49:29 -0500, HK wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.

That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.

Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations.

Which is no different than a trade school, except their time in
training is considered as apprenticeship time which means that they
have to complete OJT as an apprentice.

I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Are they paid while they are in Union training?

The whole point of apprenticeship is to pay your dues, learn your
trade and work under the direction of a Master tradesman.

Not jump immediately to Journeyman status.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

All to learn to sweat a frekin' pipe and adjust a burner.. bunch of
crap. I hear it is worse elsewhere. In Fla they want you to go though
that to paint frekin' houses.. What, do you got to teach them how to
climb a ladder,or open a can? What's next, a licence to mow lawns, how
about a special school and tax to swim in your pool or lay on the
porch?

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:49:29 -0500, HK wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.

That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.

Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations.

Which is no different than a trade school, except their time in
training is considered as apprenticeship time which means that they
have to complete OJT as an apprentice.

I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Are they paid while they are in Union training?

The whole point of apprenticeship is to pay your dues, learn your
trade and work under the direction of a Master tradesman.

Not jump immediately to Journeyman status.


My son-in-law recently got his Journeyman electrician's licence here in MA.
I think the process was OJT training for some number of hours (took years)
under the supervision of a licenced master electrician. He also went to
school nights for over a year at a trade school. Once he completed the
school, passed their exam and obtained the required OJT hours, he took the
state Journeyman exam and got his licence. He now has to obtain some number
of hours as a Journeyman before taking the Master exam.

He got many of the OJT hours working at my son's company under the
supervision of a Master electrician who heads up the electrical wiring shop.
He also did night and weekend jobs for a local contractor under the
supervision of their hired electricians.

He can now take jobs on his own as a Journeyman, but there's some weird rule
about putting his name on a work truck, should he decide to get one.
Something like he can put his last name on it but not his full name ... I
really don't understand it.

Nothing has blown up or burned down so far .....

Eisboch

On Nov 24, 3:49�am, HK wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. �We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. �The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. �Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. �With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. �So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. �Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.

That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.

Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When the building boom was in full swing, maybe 12-18 months ago, the
carpenter's union was running advertisements trying to entice young
people to sign up for the apprenticeship program. They represented
that journeyman carpenters could earn a wage "consistent with most
college graduates", and regardless of the area of the country one
lives in and whatever the level of prevailing wages, that's probably
true. It should be. A guy who can frame a house has a lot more
economic value, IMO, than somebody who understands all the history and
nuances of 17th Century French oil painting. (I must be a barbarian.)

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 24, 3:49�am, HK wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. �We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. �The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. �Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. �With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. �So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. �Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.
That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.
Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When the building boom was in full swing, maybe 12-18 months ago, the
carpenter's union was running advertisements trying to entice young
people to sign up for the apprenticeship program. They represented
that journeyman carpenters could earn a wage "consistent with most
college graduates", and regardless of the area of the country one
lives in and whatever the level of prevailing wages, that's probably
true. It should be. A guy who can frame a house has a lot more
economic value, IMO, than somebody who understands all the history and
nuances of 17th Century French oil painting. (I must be a barbarian.)


The carpenters' union is pretty progressive and aggressive, two
attributes I admire in trade unions. It also works hard to expand its
turf into areas that either haven't been organized, or are loosely
organized by other unions.

Most people don't realize that even in the best of times, commercial
construction workers have periods of unemployment because of the
vagaries of the market. That's one of the reasons why their hourly rate
seems so high. They usually don't get the 50 weeks of work that other
working Americans "enjoy."

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 23, 3:23�pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
Mrs. Wave and I traveled over to the new Bass Pro Shops in Foxboro
today at Patriot's Place.

Anyway, I was walking around while Mrs. Wave was purchasing her sale
goodies. �Got a really close look at a Mako 26 CC and almost cried.

There wasn't a straight line on the boat. �Run your hand along the
gunwale and all you felt were bumps. �Look down the chine and you
could see where they filled in areas. �The gel coat was awful - you
could see little swirls and obvious after the fact repairs.

Inside the boat, the same thing - look down the freeboard and there
wasn't a perfectly flat surface the entire length - you could actually
see the imperfections. �Ran my hand down the side and you could feel
it. �The rub rails were not correctly installed - you could see where
the screws holding the rail on were either incompletely installed or
at an angle - you could feel it. �The T-Top had gaps between the
structure and the console - you could grab the top and actually shake
it indicating thin wall tubing. �I looked inside the console and there
was wiring everywhere - the bundles weren't organized in any sense of
the word and generally left hanging.

It appeared endemic to the other Makos including the smaller bay boats
- all had blemished in the gel coat, straight lines seemed nonexistant
and the workmanship just gave the impression of being - well,
incomplete to be polite.

It kind of bummed me out. �Compared to the Nitro bass boats that is.

Which is a whole 'nother story. �Talk about cheaply built.

Anyway...

It's a great experience by the way - I really like the way the store
is set up. �I'd like to spend some more time but it was really crowded
and I hate crowds. �Didn't stop me from making some purchases though -
got a couple of new heavy boat rods (can't make them for that money)
and they have a great fly/do-it-yourself section.

What this country needs is to stop assuming that everybody smart
enough to do so needs to go to college. There ought to be a first
class trade school and/or union apprenticeship program available to
people so they can learn to build and/or repair things properly. The
way the system works now, we teach the kids to look down on anybody
that doesn't have a "white collar" job, so some of the boat
manufacturers are forced to hire the dumb-as-a-post screwups, often of
dubious immigration status.

Decent plumbers and electricians can get plenty of work that will
never be sent "offshore", and a six-figure income is a realistic
possibility for a sharp, hard working individual.

Part of the problem is that some of the manufacturers seem afraid of
quality, or at least afraid of what it would do to their shares of the
market if people were asked to pay for good workmanship. And not just
boats.

One thing, though, that could be a possibilty: Isn't that a big chain
operation? Wonder if there isn't (at least unofficially) a "quick and
dirty" series slapped together to allow cheapie pricing? Or, possibly,
whether the retailer gets a screaming deal on all the reject layups?


It's part of the same company...the guy who owns BassPro owns Mako and
several other lines, including SeaCraft.