Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:01:13 -0500, John H.
wrote:

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?

Either antenna will give you a boat-to-boat range of 5 to 10 miles.
Boat-to-shore range depends largely on antenna height of the shore
station with either. All things being equal the 8 ft should be
slightly better but I doubt that you'd see a big difference.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:12:49 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:01:13 -0500, John H.
wrote:

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?

Either antenna will give you a boat-to-boat range of 5 to 10 miles.
Boat-to-shore range depends largely on antenna height of the shore
station with either. All things being equal the 8 ft should be
slightly better but I doubt that you'd see a big difference.

Agreed. The diffrence will be marginal if there is any at all.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

John H. wrote:
With the new Key West, I'm getting a bimini. The wife didn't think the
t-top would give enough sun protection.

In one of the shots of your boat, Harry, it appeared that you have the 8'
antenna folded down, although it could have been a 5'er I guess. In any
case, what do you have, and does it interfere with the bimini?

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?

John,

With the Bimini where do you plan on installing the antenna? It seems
no matter where you place it, it will be in the way when you are
fishing. I personally would recommend the hard t-top and a sunhat. But
then again, I don't fish. ;)

In the past, I always wore baseball caps with a hat catcher (alligator
clip attached to cap and shirt). I have since changed to a Tilley, and
there is a world of difference in protection of the face and neck.
It also has a strap that you can use so it won't blow off in the wind.
The LTM 6 is lightweight and is vent to be cooler in the sun.

http://www.tilley.com/detail.asp?gen...od uctNo=LTM6

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:40:02 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

John H. wrote:
With the new Key West, I'm getting a bimini. The wife didn't think the
t-top would give enough sun protection.

In one of the shots of your boat, Harry, it appeared that you have the 8'
antenna folded down, although it could have been a 5'er I guess. In any
case, what do you have, and does it interfere with the bimini?

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?

John,

With the Bimini where do you plan on installing the antenna? It seems
no matter where you place it, it will be in the way when you are
fishing. I personally would recommend the hard t-top and a sunhat. But
then again, I don't fish. ;)

In the past, I always wore baseball caps with a hat catcher (alligator
clip attached to cap and shirt). I have since changed to a Tilley, and
there is a world of difference in protection of the face and neck.
It also has a strap that you can use so it won't blow off in the wind.
The LTM 6 is lightweight and is vent to be cooler in the sun.

http://www.tilley.com/detail.asp?gen...od uctNo=LTM6

Piffle.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

John H. wrote:
With the new Key West, I'm getting a bimini. The wife didn't think the
t-top would give enough sun protection.

In one of the shots of your boat, Harry, it appeared that you have the 8'
antenna folded down, although it could have been a 5'er I guess. In any
case, what do you have, and does it interfere with the bimini?

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?


I haven't noticed any difference on the Bay with my five-footer. (I was
going to go with an eight-footer, but decided I wanted one that would
fit under the bimini). Only used it a couple of times, but "raised"
other boats maybe 10 miles away, and of course, no problems hearing or
raising the CG with its high land towers.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:40:02 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

John H. wrote:
With the new Key West, I'm getting a bimini. The wife didn't think the
t-top would give enough sun protection.

In one of the shots of your boat, Harry, it appeared that you have the 8'
antenna folded down, although it could have been a 5'er I guess. In any
case, what do you have, and does it interfere with the bimini?

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?
John,

With the Bimini where do you plan on installing the antenna? It seems
no matter where you place it, it will be in the way when you are
fishing. I personally would recommend the hard t-top and a sunhat. But
then again, I don't fish. ;)

In the past, I always wore baseball caps with a hat catcher (alligator
clip attached to cap and shirt). I have since changed to a Tilley, and
there is a world of difference in protection of the face and neck.
It also has a strap that you can use so it won't blow off in the wind.
The LTM 6 is lightweight and is vent to be cooler in the sun.

http://www.tilley.com/detail.asp?gen...od uctNo=LTM6

Piffle.

Your jealous nature is so obvious.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

HK wrote:
John H. wrote:
With the new Key West, I'm getting a bimini. The wife didn't think the
t-top would give enough sun protection.

In one of the shots of your boat, Harry, it appeared that you have the 8'
antenna folded down, although it could have been a 5'er I guess. In any
case, what do you have, and does it interfere with the bimini?

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?


I haven't noticed any difference on the Bay with my five-footer. (I was
going to go with an eight-footer, but decided I wanted one that would
fit under the bimini). Only used it a couple of times, but "raised"
other boats maybe 10 miles away, and of course, no problems hearing or
raising the CG with its high land towers.


Whoops...my antenna is a 3' unit, not a five-foot unit. It was
positioned to just clear the bimini. Works fine. I lower it when I put
the cover on the boat.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

With the new Key West, I'm getting a bimini. The wife didn't think the
t-top would give enough sun protection.

In one of the shots of your boat, Harry, it appeared that you have the 8'
antenna folded down, although it could have been a 5'er I guess. In any
case, what do you have, and does it interfere with the bimini?

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:48:27 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

Piffle.

Your jealous nature is so obvious.

Hats for pansies.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:12:49 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:01:13 -0500, John H.
wrote:

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?

Either antenna will give you a boat-to-boat range of 5 to 10 miles.
Boat-to-shore range depends largely on antenna height of the shore
station with either. All things being equal the 8 ft should be
slightly better but I doubt that you'd see a big difference.

Thanks, Wayne.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Sep 25, 8:06 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:48:27 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"

wrote:
Piffle.

Your jealous nature is so obvious.

Hats for pansies.

This from a guy who wears his hat backwards, with the rim in the
front! Cept when the boat is moving along, then he wears it right.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Sep 25, 8:22 am, wrote:
On Sep 25, 8:06 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:48:27 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"

wrote:
Piffle.

Your jealous nature is so obvious.

Hats for pansies.

This from a guy who wears his hat backwards, with the rim in the
front! Cept when the boat is moving along, then he wears it right.

Proof that this NG does some good for boaters and is not all
politics. I face the same issue in that I have an 8' antenna on my
Tolman but recently installed a bimini and have not been sure of what
to do about the antenna. Harry says his 3' antenna works fine and
clears the bimini............

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
oups.com...

Proof that this NG does some good for boaters and is not all
politics. I face the same issue in that I have an 8' antenna on my
Tolman but recently installed a bimini and have not been sure of what
to do about the antenna. Harry says his 3' antenna works fine and
clears the bimini............


I installed a 3' antenna and Icom radio on the console of a Dauntless Whaler
I had. No bimini, but I didn't want a long antenna in the way while fishing
and the short, stainless whip could be bent over under the console grab
rail, out of the way.

It worked, but didn't have nearly the range of an 8 footer mounted higher up
on a boat. As for 10 mile range? No way on mine. Maybe two at best.

Eisboch

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 25, 8:22 am, wrote:
On Sep 25, 8:06 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:48:27 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Piffle.
Your jealous nature is so obvious.
Hats for pansies.
This from a guy who wears his hat backwards, with the rim in the
front! Cept when the boat is moving along, then he wears it right.

Proof that this NG does some good for boaters and is not all
politics. I face the same issue in that I have an 8' antenna on my
Tolman but recently installed a bimini and have not been sure of what
to do about the antenna. Harry says his 3' antenna works fine and
clears the bimini............


VHF transmission range is a function of transmitter power, receiver
sensitivity, and distance to the horizon, since VHF signals propagate
under normal conditions as a line-of-sight phenomenon.

The way to calculate the the theoretical line-of-sight horizon distance
is:
distance in miles = The square root of (1.5 X the height of the
antenna from the water in feet)

Since the CG is normally located at the highest possible place, you
shouldn't have a problem sending and receiving to them. You *will*
notice the difference when you are communicating with other boats.
Which could impact on the ability to get a quick response to a Pan Pan
or a MayDay call.

I personally think a Hard Top with an ant. mounted on the top of the
Hard Top would give you better coverage, without the inconvenience of
the ant. and bimini straps being in your way as you fish.

If you don't have the ability to easily walk around the boat, what is
the advantage of a CC?

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

John H. wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:11:20 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 25, 8:22 am, wrote:
On Sep 25, 8:06 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:48:27 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Piffle.
Your jealous nature is so obvious.
Hats for pansies.
This from a guy who wears his hat backwards, with the rim in the
front! Cept when the boat is moving along, then he wears it right.
Proof that this NG does some good for boaters and is not all
politics. I face the same issue in that I have an 8' antenna on my
Tolman but recently installed a bimini and have not been sure of what
to do about the antenna. Harry says his 3' antenna works fine and
clears the bimini............

VHF transmission range is a function of transmitter power, receiver
sensitivity, and distance to the horizon, since VHF signals propagate
under normal conditions as a line-of-sight phenomenon.

The way to calculate the the theoretical line-of-sight horizon distance
is:
distance in miles = The square root of (1.5 X the height of the
antenna from the water in feet)

Since the CG is normally located at the highest possible place, you
shouldn't have a problem sending and receiving to them. You *will*
notice the difference when you are communicating with other boats.
Which could impact on the ability to get a quick response to a Pan Pan
or a MayDay call.

I personally think a Hard Top with an ant. mounted on the top of the
Hard Top would give you better coverage, without the inconvenience of
the ant. and bimini straps being in your way as you fish.

If you don't have the ability to easily walk around the boat, what is
the advantage of a CC?




When I'm using the boat for fishing, the bimini will be down. Walking
around will not be a problem.

An advantage of a CC, for me, is that I prefer to operate a boat in the
standing position.

If I were getting the boat just for my use, I'd go with the t-top, with
perhaps a three foot antenna mounted on it.

But, I expect to be pulling a lot of grandkids on tubes or skis, so the
wife has a big say.

(in my best SWF voice)

Pansy.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:40:02 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

John H. wrote:
With the new Key West, I'm getting a bimini. The wife didn't think the
t-top would give enough sun protection.

In one of the shots of your boat, Harry, it appeared that you have the 8'
antenna folded down, although it could have been a 5'er I guess. In any
case, what do you have, and does it interfere with the bimini?

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?

John,

With the Bimini where do you plan on installing the antenna? It seems
no matter where you place it, it will be in the way when you are
fishing. I personally would recommend the hard t-top and a sunhat. But
then again, I don't fish. ;)

In the past, I always wore baseball caps with a hat catcher (alligator
clip attached to cap and shirt). I have since changed to a Tilley, and
there is a world of difference in protection of the face and neck.
It also has a strap that you can use so it won't blow off in the wind.
The LTM 6 is lightweight and is vent to be cooler in the sun.

http://www.tilley.com/detail.asp?gen...od uctNo=LTM6

The antenna will be installed on the side of the console. Hopefully, there
will be enough height for the antenna and the bimini to be deployed
simultaneously.

If the boat were just for me, and just for fishing, I'd have a t-top. But,
it's not just for me. So I lose that one.

I like the looks of the Tilley hats, though. Maybe I'll check into them, if
I can find a local store that carries them.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message
...

VHF transmission range is a function of transmitter power, receiver
sensitivity, and distance to the horizon, since VHF signals propagate
under normal conditions as a line-of-sight phenomenon.

The way to calculate the the theoretical line-of-sight horizon distance
is:
distance in miles = The square root of (1.5 X the height of the antenna
from the water in feet)



It's also a function of the proper matching of antenna length, usually
expressed in quarter wavelength values, for the lowest SWR value which
yields maximum power transfer of the radio's power. The shorter the
antenna, the more difficult it is to match it to the transmitting frequency.
Many short antennas have additional windings of wire to make the antenna
appear "longer" in order to get lower SWR readings and protect the radio's
output stages, but don't help with maximizing the effective radiated power.

Very few people adjust the antenna length to get maximum range. In many
cases the 25 watts you think you are transmitting with is in reality much
lower and can vary widely installation to installation.

Eisboch

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 08:00:11 -0400, HK wrote:

HK wrote:
John H. wrote:
With the new Key West, I'm getting a bimini. The wife didn't think the
t-top would give enough sun protection.

In one of the shots of your boat, Harry, it appeared that you have the 8'
antenna folded down, although it could have been a 5'er I guess. In any
case, what do you have, and does it interfere with the bimini?

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?


I haven't noticed any difference on the Bay with my five-footer. (I was
going to go with an eight-footer, but decided I wanted one that would
fit under the bimini). Only used it a couple of times, but "raised"
other boats maybe 10 miles away, and of course, no problems hearing or
raising the CG with its high land towers.


Whoops...my antenna is a 3' unit, not a five-foot unit. It was
positioned to just clear the bimini. Works fine. I lower it when I put
the cover on the boat.

The three footer sounds even better. Post a pic when you get a chance.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:11:20 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 25, 8:22 am, wrote:
On Sep 25, 8:06 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:48:27 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Piffle.
Your jealous nature is so obvious.
Hats for pansies.
This from a guy who wears his hat backwards, with the rim in the
front! Cept when the boat is moving along, then he wears it right.

Proof that this NG does some good for boaters and is not all
politics. I face the same issue in that I have an 8' antenna on my
Tolman but recently installed a bimini and have not been sure of what
to do about the antenna. Harry says his 3' antenna works fine and
clears the bimini............


VHF transmission range is a function of transmitter power, receiver
sensitivity, and distance to the horizon, since VHF signals propagate
under normal conditions as a line-of-sight phenomenon.

The way to calculate the the theoretical line-of-sight horizon distance
is:
distance in miles = The square root of (1.5 X the height of the
antenna from the water in feet)

Since the CG is normally located at the highest possible place, you
shouldn't have a problem sending and receiving to them. You *will*
notice the difference when you are communicating with other boats.
Which could impact on the ability to get a quick response to a Pan Pan
or a MayDay call.

I personally think a Hard Top with an ant. mounted on the top of the
Hard Top would give you better coverage, without the inconvenience of
the ant. and bimini straps being in your way as you fish.

If you don't have the ability to easily walk around the boat, what is
the advantage of a CC?




When I'm using the boat for fishing, the bimini will be down. Walking
around will not be a problem.

An advantage of a CC, for me, is that I prefer to operate a boat in the
standing position.

If I were getting the boat just for my use, I'd go with the t-top, with
perhaps a three foot antenna mounted on it.

But, I expect to be pulling a lot of grandkids on tubes or skis, so the
wife has a big say.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

John H. wrote in
:

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?



None whatsoever. I got to the horizon on a Metz Manta 6 halfwave at butt
level in a Sea Rayder jetboat all the time.

VHF only goes to the horizon, line of sight. To get further, you must
extend the horizon with ALTITUDE. 5' to 8' means nothing.

Screw a bunch of sun-destroyed fiberglass rods. The Metz is guaranteed for
life unless you lose the whip out of it. All the USCGs boats use the Metz,
a testimonial to its rugged construction. Completely self-contained. No
ground plane required. It'll work the horizon holding it in your hand.
http://www.metzcommunication.com/manta6.htm
Great company, too.

This guy has it on sale:
http://www.northeastmarineelectronics.com/index.asp?
PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2984
$34! That's half price!


Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Sep 25, 10:51 am, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote :

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?

None whatsoever. I got to the horizon on a Metz Manta 6 halfwave at butt
level in a Sea Rayder jetboat all the time.

VHF only goes to the horizon, line of sight. To get further, you must
extend the horizon with ALTITUDE. 5' to 8' means nothing.

Screw a bunch of sun-destroyed fiberglass rods. The Metz is guaranteed for
life unless you lose the whip out of it. All the USCGs boats use the Metz,
a testimonial to its rugged construction. Completely self-contained. No
ground plane required. It'll work the horizon holding it in your hand.http://www.metzcommunication.com/manta6.htm
Great company, too.

This guy has it on sale:http://www.northeastmarineelectronics.com/index.asp?
PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2984
$34! That's half price!

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

If distance goes as square root of the height, a 3' antenna mounted on
the same mount as the 8' antenna will reduce my distance by only about
40%.

I may be wrong about this but I think the shorter antennaes are less
"gain". This means they send less power in a horizontal plane.
Sailboats use low gain antennaes because they heel but generally have
them up very high.

Bottom line, I suspect the real answer is that the 3' antenna probably
loses more than 50% of the range due to "gain" and distance to
horizon.

My options (with bimini):

1. Mount the 8' antenna on the side "gunnel" where it would interfere
with casting AND be about 2' lower, effectively being the same as a 6'
antenna (except for gain) AND requiring more coax.
2. Mount the 8' antenna on the heavy stainless bimini tube support
getting back 1' of height.
3. Replace the 8' antenna with a 3' antenna but carry the 8' one for
use in an emergency.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:59:02 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message
...

VHF transmission range is a function of transmitter power, receiver
sensitivity, and distance to the horizon, since VHF signals propagate
under normal conditions as a line-of-sight phenomenon.

The way to calculate the the theoretical line-of-sight horizon distance
is:
distance in miles = The square root of (1.5 X the height of the antenna
from the water in feet)

It's also a function of the proper matching of antenna length, usually
expressed in quarter wavelength values, for the lowest SWR value which
yields maximum power transfer of the radio's power. The shorter the
antenna, the more difficult it is to match it to the transmitting frequency.
Many short antennas have additional windings of wire to make the antenna
appear "longer" in order to get lower SWR readings and protect the radio's
output stages, but don't help with maximizing the effective radiated power.

Very few people adjust the antenna length to get maximum range. In many
cases the 25 watts you think you are transmitting with is in reality much
lower and can vary widely installation to installation.

Yep.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:01:13 -0500, John H. penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

With the new Key West, I'm getting a bimini. The wife didn't think the
t-top would give enough sun protection.

In one of the shots of your boat, Harry, it appeared that you have the 8'
antenna folded down, although it could have been a 5'er I guess. In any
case, what do you have, and does it interfere with the bimini?

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?

By formula, 3' vs. 8' is about 2.74 miles difference in LoS..... which
is fairly meaningless..... since we don't know the altitude of the
other antenna. For safety, I rely on the height of the local 170+ foot
USCG antenna, instead of the height of my own......

Receiver sensitivity is probably way more important than +-5' of
antenna at the boat end.... unless you are trying to DSC some guy near
the horizon....

...... sooooo.....
save that money on the antenna and spend it on the IC-M604...

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats
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Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 08:32:14 -0700, Frogwatch
wrote:


If distance goes as square root of the height, a 3' antenna mounted on
the same mount as the 8' antenna will reduce my distance by only about
40%.

I may be wrong about this but I think the shorter antennaes are less
"gain". This means they send less power in a horizontal plane.
Sailboats use low gain antennaes because they heel but generally have
them up very high.

Hmmm - it's a bit more complicated that that.

The long/short of it is that antenna gain is based on the hallowed
theoritical half-wave dipole in free space - eerything is compared to
that.

It really doesn't matter if it's horizontal or vertical.

Bottom line, I suspect the real answer is that the 3' antenna probably
loses more than 50% of the range due to "gain" and distance to
horizon.

Not really. Of course it depends on the rating of the antenna in
terms of power, but a 3' antenna should be as capable of handling 25
watts as an 8' antenna.

Gain is a tricky term to use. The antenna, at it's designed frequency
will provide "gain" of X dB over space at a 1:1 SWR (Standing Wave
Ratio). So if you have 9 dB of "gain" at 1:1 that doesn't mean that
you have tripled your Effective Radiated Power - more like you have
increased the ERP by 40% or thereabouts for reasons beyond the point
of this discussion.

Where the loss comes in is away from the center frequency as the SWR
rises. At 1:1 you are getting the power efficiently transmitted. The
further you move up and/or down the frequency range, the SWR rises
which introduces loss. That loss, in dB, is subtracted from the
"gain" resulting in decreased ERP.

There are also other factors to consider such as ground system,
height, type of antenna, ability to retune, etc.

Properly installed, there is no honest advantage to a 8' antenna over
a 3' antenna for small boats.

For larger boats, that's a whole different ball of wax. :)

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:50:39 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

By formula, 3' vs. 8' is about 2.74 miles difference in LoS..... which
is fairly meaningless..... since we don't know the altitude of the
other antenna. For safety, I rely on the height of the local 170+ foot
USCG antenna, instead of the height of my own......

Agreed.

..... sooooo.....
save that money on the antenna and spend it on the IC-M604...

Agreed. :)

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:04:59 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

Agreed. :)

You're awfully agreeable today. What's up?

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Frogwatch" wrote in message
oups.com...
Proof that this NG does some good for boaters and is not all
politics. I face the same issue in that I have an 8' antenna on my
Tolman but recently installed a bimini and have not been sure of what
to do about the antenna. Harry says his 3' antenna works fine and
clears the bimini............


I installed a 3' antenna and Icom radio on the console of a Dauntless Whaler
I had. No bimini, but I didn't want a long antenna in the way while fishing
and the short, stainless whip could be bent over under the console grab
rail, out of the way.

It worked, but didn't have nearly the range of an 8 footer mounted higher up
on a boat. As for 10 mile range? No way on mine. Maybe two at best.

Eisboch




Mine is mounted on a vertical rail on the side of my center console.
When up, it just clears the underneath of the bimini, and the bimini
clears the top of my head by at least six to eight inches, so I am
guessing the tip of the antenna is somewhere close to 7' off the deck of
the boat. It seems to work well for me, although I rarely use VHF, since
almost everyone is on cell, even the guys I chat with who are fishing on
their boats out on the bay.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

John H. wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 08:00:11 -0400, HK wrote:

HK wrote:
John H. wrote:
With the new Key West, I'm getting a bimini. The wife didn't think the
t-top would give enough sun protection.

In one of the shots of your boat, Harry, it appeared that you have the 8'
antenna folded down, although it could have been a 5'er I guess. In any
case, what do you have, and does it interfere with the bimini?

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?

I haven't noticed any difference on the Bay with my five-footer. (I was
going to go with an eight-footer, but decided I wanted one that would
fit under the bimini). Only used it a couple of times, but "raised"
other boats maybe 10 miles away, and of course, no problems hearing or
raising the CG with its high land towers.

Whoops...my antenna is a 3' unit, not a five-foot unit. It was
positioned to just clear the bimini. Works fine. I lower it when I put
the cover on the boat.

The three footer sounds even better. Post a pic when you get a chance.


Whoops. Could have done that this am, since I just towed the boat back
from Cobb Island. Saw a Key West dealer near there, stopped in to see
what all the fuss was about. This is the dealer in Maryland on Route 301
about two miles north of the Potomac River bridge.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:01:13 -0500, John H. penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

With the new Key West, I'm getting a bimini. The wife didn't think the
t-top would give enough sun protection.

In one of the shots of your boat, Harry, it appeared that you have the 8'
antenna folded down, although it could have been a 5'er I guess. In any
case, what do you have, and does it interfere with the bimini?

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?

By formula, 3' vs. 8' is about 2.74 miles difference in LoS..... which
is fairly meaningless..... since we don't know the altitude of the
other antenna. For safety, I rely on the height of the local 170+ foot
USCG antenna, instead of the height of my own......

Receiver sensitivity is probably way more important than +-5' of
antenna at the boat end.... unless you are trying to DSC some guy near
the horizon....

..... sooooo.....
save that money on the antenna and spend it on the IC-M604...



I went with the IC-M504. Enough is enough, especially for a radio I will
rarely use, since it isn't nearly as effective to chat with other
fishing guys as a cell phone.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 08:32:14 -0700, Frogwatch
wrote:


If distance goes as square root of the height, a 3' antenna mounted on
the same mount as the 8' antenna will reduce my distance by only about
40%.

I may be wrong about this but I think the shorter antennaes are less
"gain". This means they send less power in a horizontal plane.
Sailboats use low gain antennaes because they heel but generally have
them up very high.

Hmmm - it's a bit more complicated that that.

The long/short of it is that antenna gain is based on the hallowed
theoritical half-wave dipole in free space - eerything is compared to
that.

It really doesn't matter if it's horizontal or vertical.

Bottom line, I suspect the real answer is that the 3' antenna probably
loses more than 50% of the range due to "gain" and distance to
horizon.

Not really. Of course it depends on the rating of the antenna in
terms of power, but a 3' antenna should be as capable of handling 25
watts as an 8' antenna.

Gain is a tricky term to use. The antenna, at it's designed frequency
will provide "gain" of X dB over space at a 1:1 SWR (Standing Wave
Ratio). So if you have 9 dB of "gain" at 1:1 that doesn't mean that
you have tripled your Effective Radiated Power - more like you have
increased the ERP by 40% or thereabouts for reasons beyond the point
of this discussion.

Where the loss comes in is away from the center frequency as the SWR
rises. At 1:1 you are getting the power efficiently transmitted. The
further you move up and/or down the frequency range, the SWR rises
which introduces loss. That loss, in dB, is subtracted from the
"gain" resulting in decreased ERP.

There are also other factors to consider such as ground system,
height, type of antenna, ability to retune, etc.

Properly installed, there is no honest advantage to a 8' antenna over
a 3' antenna for small boats.

For larger boats, that's a whole different ball of wax. :)


Thank goodness the alternator on my trusty Yamaha puts out 20 GJ of
juice for my VHF radio and towed array barge.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote in
:

Properly installed, there is no honest advantage to a 8' antenna over
a 3' antenna for small boats.

For larger boats, that's a whole different ball of wax. :)



It's not on larger boats, either. At 55' atop the mainmast of an Amel
Sharki 40 ketch, the Metz easily outperforms the 8' monsters, which must
be mounted lower.

There is a problem with these "High Gain" antennas that's not
addressed....BOATS ROLL AND PITCH.

The horizontal radiation pattern of a 1/2 wave whip, like the end-fed
Metz, looks just like a donut that has no hole with the whip sticking up
where the hole should be. Its "gain" over the isotropic source is 3 db
because of this donut. The isotropic source's radiation pattern is a
sphere. If you took that sphere and pushed the north and south poles of
it to the center, the sides bulge out twice as wide....the 3db measured
at the equator, for you cartographers in the audience. The equator is
fatter.

Now, if we took that Metz radiation balloon, the donut, and put it
between two plates in a vice, when we squeezed the vice, the balloon
between the plates would be squeezed even more and its equator would
bulge out even more as we flattened it so the plates were only an inch
apart. (Our balloon can take any pressure.) This is what the radiation
pattern looks like for the 8-9 db fiberglass colinear "whip", which is
actually a phased array of 1/2 wave dipoles inside a fiberglass tube to
hold them in place. 8' antennas have two dipoles spaced 1/2 wavelength
apart to create this donut that looks like you stepped on it and
flattened it.

Now, this gain IS real gain AT THE EQUATOR when either whip is held
pointing at zenith, straight up and down. Too bad your boat NEVER points
it there, only in passing through it. The pattern is ALWAYS
perpendicular to the plane of the whip passing through the middle of it.

So,



\ Tip of whip
\
\
\
X Boat heeled this way
\
\
\
\
Boat ^-pattern edge heeled to right

God that's awful but its the best I can think of. AS you can see, the
donut has tipped with the whip as the boat rolls. The pattern rolls,
too! All the stations off to starboard or port DON'T see the signal
caused by the EDGE of the donut. They see something MUCH less. How much
less is determined by the tilt of the donut and how squished out it is.
If it's squished hard, like the 8' whip (compared to the Metz' fat
donut), the part of the pattern pointing at the receiving antenna afar is
much less thick than the fat Metz donut.

The effect of rolling and pitching at the receiver you're trying to
impress is that the Metz antenna's signal at that far-off receiver runs a
course from our reference signal, for this explanation, down to 60% of
reference signal. The big whip's signal, on the other hand, being
flatter produces about 20% more signal when the antenna is vertical, but
the dip in signal as the boat rolls is down 80% or more because its donut
is so squished. Very little signal points to the receiver when the donut
is pitched over like this.

That's what the REAL difference between them is, at sea, in the real
world. If your VHF has an S-meter on it, watch it in rolling seas and
you can see the other guy's rolling and pitching making it roll up and
down as his donut's peak and minimum pass by you. The Metz, or any half-
wave with the fat donut, has lots less pitch/roll fading and better comms
when it really counts....precisely why the CG uses it on THEIR pitching
and rolling craft in heavy weather.

Besides, I've submarined the Metz on the jetboat a few times when the bow
became a shovel.....and it survived what would rip the fiberglass whip
right off, probably in splinters....(c;


Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

John H. wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:15:24 -0400, HK wrote:

Eisboch wrote:
"Frogwatch" wrote in message
oups.com...
Proof that this NG does some good for boaters and is not all
politics. I face the same issue in that I have an 8' antenna on my
Tolman but recently installed a bimini and have not been sure of what
to do about the antenna. Harry says his 3' antenna works fine and
clears the bimini............

I installed a 3' antenna and Icom radio on the console of a Dauntless Whaler
I had. No bimini, but I didn't want a long antenna in the way while fishing
and the short, stainless whip could be bent over under the console grab
rail, out of the way.

It worked, but didn't have nearly the range of an 8 footer mounted higher up
on a boat. As for 10 mile range? No way on mine. Maybe two at best.

Eisboch



Mine is mounted on a vertical rail on the side of my center console.
When up, it just clears the underneath of the bimini, and the bimini
clears the top of my head by at least six to eight inches, so I am
guessing the tip of the antenna is somewhere close to 7' off the deck of
the boat. It seems to work well for me, although I rarely use VHF, since
almost everyone is on cell, even the guys I chat with who are fishing on
their boats out on the bay.

Do you have this radio: IC-M604 ?

I think I like the Metz Manta 6 stainless whip antenna. It can easily be
mounted to the console.


No, I thought the IC-M504 was expensive enough. Bought all my
electronics but the fishfinder from BOE in Annapolis. Good local prices.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

John H. wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:51:44 +0000, Larry wrote:

John H. wrote in
:

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?


None whatsoever. I got to the horizon on a Metz Manta 6 halfwave at butt
level in a Sea Rayder jetboat all the time.

VHF only goes to the horizon, line of sight. To get further, you must
extend the horizon with ALTITUDE. 5' to 8' means nothing.

Screw a bunch of sun-destroyed fiberglass rods. The Metz is guaranteed for
life unless you lose the whip out of it. All the USCGs boats use the Metz,
a testimonial to its rugged construction. Completely self-contained. No
ground plane required. It'll work the horizon holding it in your hand.
http://www.metzcommunication.com/manta6.htm
Great company, too.

This guy has it on sale:
http://www.northeastmarineelectronics.com/index.asp?
PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2984
$34! That's half price!


Larry

Thanks for the tip, Larry.

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of wire.
Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by with about
3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?


No. You can cut the wire to the length you need.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

John H. wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:50:39 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:01:13 -0500, John H. penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

With the new Key West, I'm getting a bimini. The wife didn't think the
t-top would give enough sun protection.

In one of the shots of your boat, Harry, it appeared that you have the 8'
antenna folded down, although it could have been a 5'er I guess. In any
case, what do you have, and does it interfere with the bimini?

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?
By formula, 3' vs. 8' is about 2.74 miles difference in LoS..... which
is fairly meaningless..... since we don't know the altitude of the
other antenna. For safety, I rely on the height of the local 170+ foot
USCG antenna, instead of the height of my own......

Receiver sensitivity is probably way more important than +-5' of
antenna at the boat end.... unless you are trying to DSC some guy near
the horizon....

..... sooooo.....
save that money on the antenna and spend it on the IC-M604...

PS. What would you recommend in the $200-$250 range?


M504 $277

http://www.byownerelectronics.com/st...3&cat=0&page=1

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

John H. wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:23:17 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

John H. wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:11:20 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 25, 8:22 am, wrote:
On Sep 25, 8:06 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:48:27 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Piffle.
Your jealous nature is so obvious.
Hats for pansies.
This from a guy who wears his hat backwards, with the rim in the
front! Cept when the boat is moving along, then he wears it right.
Proof that this NG does some good for boaters and is not all
politics. I face the same issue in that I have an 8' antenna on my
Tolman but recently installed a bimini and have not been sure of what
to do about the antenna. Harry says his 3' antenna works fine and
clears the bimini............

VHF transmission range is a function of transmitter power, receiver
sensitivity, and distance to the horizon, since VHF signals propagate
under normal conditions as a line-of-sight phenomenon.

The way to calculate the the theoretical line-of-sight horizon distance
is:
distance in miles = The square root of (1.5 X the height of the
antenna from the water in feet)

Since the CG is normally located at the highest possible place, you
shouldn't have a problem sending and receiving to them. You *will*
notice the difference when you are communicating with other boats.
Which could impact on the ability to get a quick response to a Pan Pan
or a MayDay call.

I personally think a Hard Top with an ant. mounted on the top of the
Hard Top would give you better coverage, without the inconvenience of
the ant. and bimini straps being in your way as you fish.

If you don't have the ability to easily walk around the boat, what is
the advantage of a CC?



When I'm using the boat for fishing, the bimini will be down. Walking
around will not be a problem.

An advantage of a CC, for me, is that I prefer to operate a boat in the
standing position.

If I were getting the boat just for my use, I'd go with the t-top, with
perhaps a three foot antenna mounted on it.

But, I expect to be pulling a lot of grandkids on tubes or skis, so the
wife has a big say.
(in my best SWF voice)

Pansy.

You wouldn't say that if you've ever taken 4-6 grandkids out on the boat at
one time!

nope and since one of my kids is in high school and none are married,
that is a good thing.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

John H. wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:51:44 +0000, Larry wrote:

John H. wrote in
:

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?


None whatsoever. I got to the horizon on a Metz Manta 6 halfwave at butt
level in a Sea Rayder jetboat all the time.

VHF only goes to the horizon, line of sight. To get further, you must
extend the horizon with ALTITUDE. 5' to 8' means nothing.

Screw a bunch of sun-destroyed fiberglass rods. The Metz is guaranteed for
life unless you lose the whip out of it. All the USCGs boats use the Metz,
a testimonial to its rugged construction. Completely self-contained. No
ground plane required. It'll work the horizon holding it in your hand.
http://www.metzcommunication.com/manta6.htm
Great company, too.

This guy has it on sale:
http://www.northeastmarineelectronics.com/index.asp?
PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2984
$34! That's half price!


Larry

Thanks for the tip, Larry.

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of wire.
Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by with about
3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?

No, but I was told that unless you know someone who can do a new
connection as good as the old connection, (which I was told will not be
done by the average DIY or boat mechanic) I was told it was better to
just wind it into a ring use some velcro to keep it out of the way.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:23:17 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

John H. wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:11:20 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 25, 8:22 am, wrote:
On Sep 25, 8:06 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:48:27 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Piffle.
Your jealous nature is so obvious.
Hats for pansies.
This from a guy who wears his hat backwards, with the rim in the
front! Cept when the boat is moving along, then he wears it right.
Proof that this NG does some good for boaters and is not all
politics. I face the same issue in that I have an 8' antenna on my
Tolman but recently installed a bimini and have not been sure of what
to do about the antenna. Harry says his 3' antenna works fine and
clears the bimini............

VHF transmission range is a function of transmitter power, receiver
sensitivity, and distance to the horizon, since VHF signals propagate
under normal conditions as a line-of-sight phenomenon.

The way to calculate the the theoretical line-of-sight horizon distance
is:
distance in miles = The square root of (1.5 X the height of the
antenna from the water in feet)

Since the CG is normally located at the highest possible place, you
shouldn't have a problem sending and receiving to them. You *will*
notice the difference when you are communicating with other boats.
Which could impact on the ability to get a quick response to a Pan Pan
or a MayDay call.

I personally think a Hard Top with an ant. mounted on the top of the
Hard Top would give you better coverage, without the inconvenience of
the ant. and bimini straps being in your way as you fish.

If you don't have the ability to easily walk around the boat, what is
the advantage of a CC?




When I'm using the boat for fishing, the bimini will be down. Walking
around will not be a problem.

An advantage of a CC, for me, is that I prefer to operate a boat in the
standing position.

If I were getting the boat just for my use, I'd go with the t-top, with
perhaps a three foot antenna mounted on it.

But, I expect to be pulling a lot of grandkids on tubes or skis, so the
wife has a big say.

(in my best SWF voice)

Pansy.

You wouldn't say that if you've ever taken 4-6 grandkids out on the boat at
one time!

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:50:39 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:01:13 -0500, John H. penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

With the new Key West, I'm getting a bimini. The wife didn't think the
t-top would give enough sun protection.

In one of the shots of your boat, Harry, it appeared that you have the 8'
antenna folded down, although it could have been a 5'er I guess. In any
case, what do you have, and does it interfere with the bimini?

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?

By formula, 3' vs. 8' is about 2.74 miles difference in LoS..... which
is fairly meaningless..... since we don't know the altitude of the
other antenna. For safety, I rely on the height of the local 170+ foot
USCG antenna, instead of the height of my own......

Receiver sensitivity is probably way more important than +-5' of
antenna at the boat end.... unless you are trying to DSC some guy near
the horizon....

..... sooooo.....
save that money on the antenna and spend it on the IC-M604...

$500! Damn! Do I really need that for an 18' boat that will probably never
get out of sight of land?

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:15:24 -0400, HK wrote:

Eisboch wrote:
"Frogwatch" wrote in message
oups.com...
Proof that this NG does some good for boaters and is not all
politics. I face the same issue in that I have an 8' antenna on my
Tolman but recently installed a bimini and have not been sure of what
to do about the antenna. Harry says his 3' antenna works fine and
clears the bimini............


I installed a 3' antenna and Icom radio on the console of a Dauntless Whaler
I had. No bimini, but I didn't want a long antenna in the way while fishing
and the short, stainless whip could be bent over under the console grab
rail, out of the way.

It worked, but didn't have nearly the range of an 8 footer mounted higher up
on a boat. As for 10 mile range? No way on mine. Maybe two at best.

Eisboch




Mine is mounted on a vertical rail on the side of my center console.
When up, it just clears the underneath of the bimini, and the bimini
clears the top of my head by at least six to eight inches, so I am
guessing the tip of the antenna is somewhere close to 7' off the deck of
the boat. It seems to work well for me, although I rarely use VHF, since
almost everyone is on cell, even the guys I chat with who are fishing on
their boats out on the bay.

Do you have this radio: IC-M604 ?

I think I like the Metz Manta 6 stainless whip antenna. It can easily be
mounted to the console.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:51:44 +0000, Larry wrote:

John H. wrote in
:

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?



None whatsoever. I got to the horizon on a Metz Manta 6 halfwave at butt
level in a Sea Rayder jetboat all the time.

VHF only goes to the horizon, line of sight. To get further, you must
extend the horizon with ALTITUDE. 5' to 8' means nothing.

Screw a bunch of sun-destroyed fiberglass rods. The Metz is guaranteed for
life unless you lose the whip out of it. All the USCGs boats use the Metz,
a testimonial to its rugged construction. Completely self-contained. No
ground plane required. It'll work the horizon holding it in your hand.
http://www.metzcommunication.com/manta6.htm
Great company, too.

This guy has it on sale:
http://www.northeastmarineelectronics.com/index.asp?
PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2984
$34! That's half price!


Larry

Thanks for the tip, Larry.

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of wire.
Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by with about
3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?