Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:42:29 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:04:59 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

Agreed. :)

You're awfully agreeable today. What's up?

I'm at peace with the universe.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:50:39 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:01:13 -0500, John H. penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

With the new Key West, I'm getting a bimini. The wife didn't think the
t-top would give enough sun protection.

In one of the shots of your boat, Harry, it appeared that you have the 8'
antenna folded down, although it could have been a 5'er I guess. In any
case, what do you have, and does it interfere with the bimini?

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?

By formula, 3' vs. 8' is about 2.74 miles difference in LoS..... which
is fairly meaningless..... since we don't know the altitude of the
other antenna. For safety, I rely on the height of the local 170+ foot
USCG antenna, instead of the height of my own......

Receiver sensitivity is probably way more important than +-5' of
antenna at the boat end.... unless you are trying to DSC some guy near
the horizon....

..... sooooo.....
save that money on the antenna and spend it on the IC-M604...

PS. What would you recommend in the $200-$250 range?

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of wire.
Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by with about
3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?
No, but I was told that unless you know someone who can do a new
connection as good as the old connection, (which I was told will not be
done by the average DIY or boat mechanic) I was told it was better to
just wind it into a ring use some velcro to keep it out of the way.

Well, I know (?) Shortwave! He could probably tell me what to do.

Shortwave doesn't know sh*t.

On the serious side, it isn't knowing how to do it, it is having the
skills to be able to do it well. Now if you fly SWF down, he might be
able to splice it for you. But it might be cheaper to buy a short ant.

I can't remember who told me this, or where I read it, but I think it
was in the instructions that came with my Horizon VHF. The question I
asked my installer when I heard this, was there any problem to wind it
up. I was told no, but they said a bad splice job can make a good VHF
worthless.

Needless to say, this will prompt a long discussion on the correct way
to splice or how stupid it is to splice an ant. wire

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:37:27 +0000, Larry wrote:

It's not on larger boats, either. At 55' atop the mainmast of an Amel
Sharki 40 ketch, the Metz easily outperforms the 8' monsters, which must
be mounted lower.

What - you work for them or something?

Metz antennas are crap - always have been, always will be.

Junk.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:44:58 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:51:44 +0000, Larry wrote:

John H. wrote in
m:

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?



None whatsoever. I got to the horizon on a Metz Manta 6 halfwave at butt
level in a Sea Rayder jetboat all the time.

VHF only goes to the horizon, line of sight. To get further, you must
extend the horizon with ALTITUDE. 5' to 8' means nothing.

Screw a bunch of sun-destroyed fiberglass rods. The Metz is guaranteed for
life unless you lose the whip out of it. All the USCGs boats use the Metz,
a testimonial to its rugged construction. Completely self-contained. No
ground plane required. It'll work the horizon holding it in your hand.
http://www.metzcommunication.com/manta6.htm
Great company, too.

This guy has it on sale:
http://www.northeastmarineelectronics.com/index.asp?
PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2984
$34! That's half price!


Larry

Thanks for the tip, Larry.

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of wire.
Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by with about
3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?

Yes - it's part of the loading for the antenna. There are forumlas
where you can cut the wire length down, but the problem is reattaching
the connector. You can use a mechanical connector, but they aren't
really a good idea.

Just roll it up and tuck it away.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:44:58 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:51:44 +0000, Larry wrote:

John H. wrote in
:

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?


None whatsoever. I got to the horizon on a Metz Manta 6 halfwave at butt
level in a Sea Rayder jetboat all the time.

VHF only goes to the horizon, line of sight. To get further, you must
extend the horizon with ALTITUDE. 5' to 8' means nothing.

Screw a bunch of sun-destroyed fiberglass rods. The Metz is guaranteed for
life unless you lose the whip out of it. All the USCGs boats use the Metz,
a testimonial to its rugged construction. Completely self-contained. No
ground plane required. It'll work the horizon holding it in your hand.
http://www.metzcommunication.com/manta6.htm
Great company, too.

This guy has it on sale:
http://www.northeastmarineelectronics.com/index.asp?
PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2984
$34! That's half price!


Larry
Thanks for the tip, Larry.

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of wire.
Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by with about
3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?

Yes - it's part of the loading for the antenna. There are forumlas
where you can cut the wire length down, but the problem is reattaching
the connector. You can use a mechanical connector, but they aren't
really a good idea.

Just roll it up and tuck it away.

SWF,
I was trying to get you airfare down to Baltimore and you blew it.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:44:58 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:51:44 +0000, Larry wrote:

John H. wrote in
:

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?


None whatsoever. I got to the horizon on a Metz Manta 6 halfwave at butt
level in a Sea Rayder jetboat all the time.

VHF only goes to the horizon, line of sight. To get further, you must
extend the horizon with ALTITUDE. 5' to 8' means nothing.

Screw a bunch of sun-destroyed fiberglass rods. The Metz is guaranteed for
life unless you lose the whip out of it. All the USCGs boats use the Metz,
a testimonial to its rugged construction. Completely self-contained. No
ground plane required. It'll work the horizon holding it in your hand.
http://www.metzcommunication.com/manta6.htm
Great company, too.

This guy has it on sale:
http://www.northeastmarineelectronics.com/index.asp?
PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2984
$34! That's half price!


Larry
Thanks for the tip, Larry.

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of wire.
Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by with about
3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?

Yes - it's part of the loading for the antenna. There are forumlas
where you can cut the wire length down, but the problem is reattaching
the connector. You can use a mechanical connector, but they aren't
really a good idea.

Just roll it up and tuck it away.


IT's not that difficult to put a proper connector on...even I can do it.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:40:51 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:50:39 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:01:13 -0500, John H. penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

With the new Key West, I'm getting a bimini. The wife didn't think the
t-top would give enough sun protection.

In one of the shots of your boat, Harry, it appeared that you have the 8'
antenna folded down, although it could have been a 5'er I guess. In any
case, what do you have, and does it interfere with the bimini?

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?

By formula, 3' vs. 8' is about 2.74 miles difference in LoS..... which
is fairly meaningless..... since we don't know the altitude of the
other antenna. For safety, I rely on the height of the local 170+ foot
USCG antenna, instead of the height of my own......

Receiver sensitivity is probably way more important than +-5' of
antenna at the boat end.... unless you are trying to DSC some guy near
the horizon....

..... sooooo.....
save that money on the antenna and spend it on the IC-M604...

$500! Damn! Do I really need that for an 18' boat that will probably never
get out of sight of land?

Nah - but then again, I like radios.

Probably the Icom M302 is what you want. Actually, in this price
range, any of the manufacturers, Uniden, Standard Horizon, Oceanus -
hell, even the West Marine brand radio are decent enough to get by.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:01:16 -0400, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:44:58 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:51:44 +0000, Larry wrote:

John H. wrote in
:

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?


None whatsoever. I got to the horizon on a Metz Manta 6 halfwave at butt
level in a Sea Rayder jetboat all the time.

VHF only goes to the horizon, line of sight. To get further, you must
extend the horizon with ALTITUDE. 5' to 8' means nothing.

Screw a bunch of sun-destroyed fiberglass rods. The Metz is guaranteed for
life unless you lose the whip out of it. All the USCGs boats use the Metz,
a testimonial to its rugged construction. Completely self-contained. No
ground plane required. It'll work the horizon holding it in your hand.
http://www.metzcommunication.com/manta6.htm
Great company, too.

This guy has it on sale:
http://www.northeastmarineelectronics.com/index.asp?
PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2984
$34! That's half price!


Larry
Thanks for the tip, Larry.

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of wire.
Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by with about
3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?

Yes - it's part of the loading for the antenna. There are forumlas
where you can cut the wire length down, but the problem is reattaching
the connector. You can use a mechanical connector, but they aren't
really a good idea.

Just roll it up and tuck it away.

IT's not that difficult to put a proper connector on...even I can do it.

Of course you can.

And I'll bet you can solve quantum flux equations using only the
calculating power of your brain stem. :)

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

John H. wrote in
:

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of
wire. Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by
with about 3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?



No, it's not. If you're not a solderer, find someone who can put a new
connector on the radio end of your cable or make up a new cable. The Metz
does NOT have a cable attached to it....one of its great features. YOU put
the cable on it so the cable can be replaced....not hard wired into the
plastic, like the little whips from Shakespeare come.

The farce of "tuning" the antenna with cable length is nonsense....

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:01:16 -0400, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:44:58 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:51:44 +0000, Larry wrote:

John H. wrote in
:

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?


None whatsoever. I got to the horizon on a Metz Manta 6 halfwave at butt
level in a Sea Rayder jetboat all the time.

VHF only goes to the horizon, line of sight. To get further, you must
extend the horizon with ALTITUDE. 5' to 8' means nothing.

Screw a bunch of sun-destroyed fiberglass rods. The Metz is guaranteed for
life unless you lose the whip out of it. All the USCGs boats use the Metz,
a testimonial to its rugged construction. Completely self-contained. No
ground plane required. It'll work the horizon holding it in your hand.
http://www.metzcommunication.com/manta6.htm
Great company, too.

This guy has it on sale:
http://www.northeastmarineelectronics.com/index.asp?
PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2984
$34! That's half price!


Larry
Thanks for the tip, Larry.

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of wire.
Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by with about
3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?
Yes - it's part of the loading for the antenna. There are forumlas
where you can cut the wire length down, but the problem is reattaching
the connector. You can use a mechanical connector, but they aren't
really a good idea.

Just roll it up and tuck it away.
IT's not that difficult to put a proper connector on...even I can do it.

Of course you can.

And I'll bet you can solve quantum flux equations using only the
calculating power of your brain stem. :)


Only after my annual beer.

You're kidding about the difficulty in putting a connector on properly,
aren't you? I've done it at least a dozen times over the years the old
fashioned way (never used one of the quickie "crimp" connectors).

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote in
:

Yes - it's part of the loading for the antenna. There are forumlas
where you can cut the wire length down, but the problem is reattaching
the connector. You can use a mechanical connector, but they aren't
really a good idea.

Just roll it up and tuck it away.



PURE HOGWASH from the CB crowd.....

The Metz doesn't even have a cable...

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

"HK" wrote in message
. ..

John H. wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:51:44 +0000, Larry wrote:


Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of wire.
Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by with
about
3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?



No. You can cut the wire to the length you need.


Not technically true, but probably doesn't matter in this application.
Performance of the radio is going to be marginal anyway. He'd be better off
coiling up the cable in a relatively large coil (not tight) for best
performance. It's length *does* affect proper antenna loading.

Eisboch

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:12:48 +0000, Larry wrote:

John H. wrote in
:

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of
wire. Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by
with about 3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?

No, it's not. If you're not a solderer, find someone who can put a new
connector on the radio end of your cable or make up a new cable. The Metz
does NOT have a cable attached to it....one of its great features. YOU put
the cable on it so the cable can be replaced....not hard wired into the
plastic, like the little whips from Shakespeare come.

The farce of "tuning" the antenna with cable length is nonsense....

Really.

Tell me why.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:14:19 -0400, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:01:16 -0400, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:44:58 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:51:44 +0000, Larry wrote:

John H. wrote in
:

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?


None whatsoever. I got to the horizon on a Metz Manta 6 halfwave at butt
level in a Sea Rayder jetboat all the time.

VHF only goes to the horizon, line of sight. To get further, you must
extend the horizon with ALTITUDE. 5' to 8' means nothing.

Screw a bunch of sun-destroyed fiberglass rods. The Metz is guaranteed for
life unless you lose the whip out of it. All the USCGs boats use the Metz,
a testimonial to its rugged construction. Completely self-contained. No
ground plane required. It'll work the horizon holding it in your hand.
http://www.metzcommunication.com/manta6.htm
Great company, too.

This guy has it on sale:
http://www.northeastmarineelectronics.com/index.asp?
PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2984
$34! That's half price!


Larry
Thanks for the tip, Larry.

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of wire.
Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by with about
3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?
Yes - it's part of the loading for the antenna. There are forumlas
where you can cut the wire length down, but the problem is reattaching
the connector. You can use a mechanical connector, but they aren't
really a good idea.

Just roll it up and tuck it away.
IT's not that difficult to put a proper connector on...even I can do it.

Of course you can.

And I'll bet you can solve quantum flux equations using only the
calculating power of your brain stem. :)


Only after my annual beer.

You're kidding about the difficulty in putting a connector on properly,
aren't you? I've done it at least a dozen times over the years the old
fashioned way (never used one of the quickie "crimp" connectors).

I believe you.

Honest.

No joke.

Wouldn't even think of debating the issue.

Your word is your bond, etc., etc., etc.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 15:11:55 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

John H. wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:51:44 +0000, Larry wrote:

John H. wrote in
:

Anyone - Is the performance of the 5' antenna seriously below that of the
8'er?


None whatsoever. I got to the horizon on a Metz Manta 6 halfwave at butt
level in a Sea Rayder jetboat all the time.

VHF only goes to the horizon, line of sight. To get further, you must
extend the horizon with ALTITUDE. 5' to 8' means nothing.

Screw a bunch of sun-destroyed fiberglass rods. The Metz is guaranteed for
life unless you lose the whip out of it. All the USCGs boats use the Metz,
a testimonial to its rugged construction. Completely self-contained. No
ground plane required. It'll work the horizon holding it in your hand.
http://www.metzcommunication.com/manta6.htm
Great company, too.

This guy has it on sale:
http://www.northeastmarineelectronics.com/index.asp?
PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2984
$34! That's half price!


Larry

Thanks for the tip, Larry.

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of wire.
Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by with about
3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?

No, but I was told that unless you know someone who can do a new
connection as good as the old connection, (which I was told will not be
done by the average DIY or boat mechanic) I was told it was better to
just wind it into a ring use some velcro to keep it out of the way.

Well, I know (?) Shortwave! He could probably tell me what to do.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
John H. wrote in
:

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of
wire. Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by
with about 3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?



No, it's not. If you're not a solderer, find someone who can put a new
connector on the radio end of your cable or make up a new cable. The Metz
does NOT have a cable attached to it....one of its great features. YOU
put
the cable on it so the cable can be replaced....not hard wired into the
plastic, like the little whips from Shakespeare come.

The farce of "tuning" the antenna with cable length is nonsense....

Larry


True, you don't "tune" the antenna with cable length, but you need a certain
amount of it to properly tune the antenna. My memory is rusty and I'd have
to go dig out the books, but I think you should have a 1/2 wavelength or so
in cable length. Maybe it's a 1/4 .... can't remember. Too short will
cause the antenna not to load properly (assuming it is the correct length)
and result in an excessive SWR value that reduces effective transmitted
power and, in the worst situation, cause damage to the output stage of the
radio.

Eisboch

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote in
:

Yes - it's part of the loading for the antenna. There are forumlas
where you can cut the wire length down, but the problem is reattaching
the connector. You can use a mechanical connector, but they aren't
really a good idea.

Just roll it up and tuck it away.



PURE HOGWASH from the CB crowd.....

The Metz doesn't even have a cable...

Larry


I suggest you read the directions that came with your super duper Metz
regarding recommended cable length.

This is not CB science.

Eisboch

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Larry" wrote in message
...
John H. wrote in
:

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of
wire. Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by
with about 3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?


No, it's not. If you're not a solderer, find someone who can put a new
connector on the radio end of your cable or make up a new cable. The Metz
does NOT have a cable attached to it....one of its great features. YOU
put
the cable on it so the cable can be replaced....not hard wired into the
plastic, like the little whips from Shakespeare come.

The farce of "tuning" the antenna with cable length is nonsense....

Larry


True, you don't "tune" the antenna with cable length, but you need a certain
amount of it to properly tune the antenna. My memory is rusty and I'd have
to go dig out the books, but I think you should have a 1/2 wavelength or so
in cable length. Maybe it's a 1/4 .... can't remember. Too short will
cause the antenna not to load properly (assuming it is the correct length)
and result in an excessive SWR value that reduces effective transmitted
power and, in the worst situation, cause damage to the output stage of the
radio.

Eisboch




Sheeesh. So long as you can reach the Coast Guard or SeaTow, I'm not
sure it matters, at least not for us near shore types. VHF is just a
clunky way to communicate when you have cell phones and friends out in
boats with cell phones.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

"HK" wrote in message
. ..


You're kidding about the difficulty in putting a connector on properly,
aren't you? I've done it at least a dozen times over the years the old
fashioned way (never used one of the quickie "crimp" connectors).

Harry, the connector is not the issue (assuming it's done in a decent
manner).
The proper loading of any RF antenna is a complex relationship of the
designed output impedance of the radio, the characteristic impedance of the
transmission line (cable) and the impedance of the antenna.

Higher powered RF transmitters have tuning boxes between the radio output
and the transmission line/antenna arrangement that effectively changes the
length with capacitors and inductors to optimize power transfer.

I agree that at 25 watts and a on typical boat installation it isn't going
to make much difference.
To an RF engineer, it will all look and operate like trash anyway.

Eisboch

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

You're kidding about the difficulty in putting a connector on properly,
aren't you? I've done it at least a dozen times over the years the old
fashioned way (never used one of the quickie "crimp" connectors).

Harry, the connector is not the issue (assuming it's done in a decent
manner).
The proper loading of any RF antenna is a complex relationship of the
designed output impedance of the radio, the characteristic impedance of the
transmission line (cable) and the impedance of the antenna.

Higher powered RF transmitters have tuning boxes between the radio output
and the transmission line/antenna arrangement that effectively changes the
length with capacitors and inductors to optimize power transfer.

I agree that at 25 watts and a on typical boat installation it isn't going
to make much difference.
To an RF engineer, it will all look and operate like trash anyway.

Eisboch



As I said, so long as I can reach the Coast Guard, I don't really care
much about VHF communication. We have really good cell coverage most
everywhere on the Bay.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

"HK" wrote in message
. ..
Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

You're kidding about the difficulty in putting a connector on properly,
aren't you? I've done it at least a dozen times over the years the old
fashioned way (never used one of the quickie "crimp" connectors).

Harry, the connector is not the issue (assuming it's done in a decent
manner).
The proper loading of any RF antenna is a complex relationship of the
designed output impedance of the radio, the characteristic impedance of
the transmission line (cable) and the impedance of the antenna.

Higher powered RF transmitters have tuning boxes between the radio output
and the transmission line/antenna arrangement that effectively changes
the length with capacitors and inductors to optimize power transfer.

I agree that at 25 watts and a on typical boat installation it isn't
going to make much difference.
To an RF engineer, it will all look and operate like trash anyway.

Eisboch

As I said, so long as I can reach the Coast Guard, I don't really care
much about VHF communication. We have really good cell coverage most
everywhere on the Bay.


Until that Yamaha coughs, you drop your cell phone overboard, the wind is
picking up, water splashing over that LT, and your radio's output stage
sizzles because the SWR ratio is 4 to 1 or something. :-)


I am a nerd about this stuff and set the boat's radio systems up with SWR
meters because I can't help it. The result though is that I can
communicate easily with boats 20 miles away.

Eisboch

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

John H. wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:51:44 +0000, Larry wrote:


Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of wire.
Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by with
about
3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?



No. You can cut the wire to the length you need.


Not technically true, but probably doesn't matter in this application.
Performance of the radio is going to be marginal anyway. He'd be better off
coiling up the cable in a relatively large coil (not tight) for best
performance. It's length *does* affect proper antenna loading.

Eisboch




wow, I guess Horizon and my installer knew what they were talking about.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:40:58 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


"Larry" wrote in message
.. .
John H. wrote in
:

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of
wire. Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by
with about 3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?



No, it's not. If you're not a solderer, find someone who can put a new
connector on the radio end of your cable or make up a new cable. The Metz
does NOT have a cable attached to it....one of its great features. YOU
put
the cable on it so the cable can be replaced....not hard wired into the
plastic, like the little whips from Shakespeare come.

The farce of "tuning" the antenna with cable length is nonsense....

True, you don't "tune" the antenna with cable length, but you need a certain
amount of it to properly tune the antenna. My memory is rusty and I'd have
to go dig out the books, but I think you should have a 1/2 wavelength or so
in cable length. Maybe it's a 1/4 .... can't remember. Too short will
cause the antenna not to load properly (assuming it is the correct length)
and result in an excessive SWR value that reduces effective transmitted
power and, in the worst situation, cause damage to the output stage of the
radio.

If you have matching problems with the antenna and are fairly certain
that the antenna, connectors are known good and the radio is
presenting power properly, then the suspect is the length of the
feedline.

End result - you trim the feeline to bring the antenna to the correct
match. Thus you are tuning the antenna using the feedline.

That's why God invented antenna tuners. :)

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..
Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

You're kidding about the difficulty in putting a connector on properly,
aren't you? I've done it at least a dozen times over the years the old
fashioned way (never used one of the quickie "crimp" connectors).
Harry, the connector is not the issue (assuming it's done in a decent
manner).
The proper loading of any RF antenna is a complex relationship of the
designed output impedance of the radio, the characteristic impedance of
the transmission line (cable) and the impedance of the antenna.

Higher powered RF transmitters have tuning boxes between the radio output
and the transmission line/antenna arrangement that effectively changes
the length with capacitors and inductors to optimize power transfer.

I agree that at 25 watts and a on typical boat installation it isn't
going to make much difference.
To an RF engineer, it will all look and operate like trash anyway.

Eisboch
As I said, so long as I can reach the Coast Guard, I don't really care
much about VHF communication. We have really good cell coverage most
everywhere on the Bay.


Until that Yamaha coughs, you drop your cell phone overboard, the wind is
picking up, water splashing over that LT, and your radio's output stage
sizzles because the SWR ratio is 4 to 1 or something. :-)


I am a nerd about this stuff and set the boat's radio systems up with SWR
meters because I can't help it. The result though is that I can
communicate easily with boats 20 miles away.

Eisboch




I've listened to the usual channels on VHF for hours at a time and
hardly ever hear much conversation. I can call the CG on my VHF, and
maybe with all the breaks some other boater within range will come by
for a look see. But unless you are in one of the higher boater density
areas, you're mostly all along out there. Where I fish for flounder, I
can go half the day without seeing another boat.

Frankly, I think we need something a lot better than VHF, some variant
of marine cell (not satellite) for in shore and near shore. The bigger
offshore boats that sink, well, we need more fishing reefs anyway, right?

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:44:13 -0400, HK wrote:

VHF is just a clunky way to communicate when you have cell
phones and friends out in boats with cell phones.

Tell me, just out of curiosity, what is your understanding of how cell
phones work?

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:44:13 -0400, HK wrote:

VHF is just a clunky way to communicate when you have cell
phones and friends out in boats with cell phones.

Tell me, just out of curiosity, what is your understanding of how cell
phones work?


Let's see. I dial a phone number on my cell, I hear ringing, and either
the person I am calling answers, or I get his voice mail. The Bay
shoreline is peppered with cell towers; the only dead spot I have
encountered in years here is in the marina.

Do I need to know more about how cell phones work? Do I need a SWR meter
for my built in cell antenna? Directions in pushing the number keys?

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:58:32 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

I am a nerd about this stuff and set the boat's radio systems up with SWR
meters because I can't help it.

Amen brother - amen.

I have an antenna tuner under the console so if I need to retune to
get the best match, I can.

Now that's obcessive. :)

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:58:32 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

I am a nerd about this stuff and set the boat's radio systems up with SWR
meters because I can't help it.

Amen brother - amen.

I have an antenna tuner under the console so if I need to retune to
get the best match, I can.

Now that's obcessive. :)


So, what's the VHF reception like on that little lake you frequent?
Better question: is anyone listening? :}

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:40:58 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

"Larry" wrote in message
...
John H. wrote in
:

Another question: Most antennae seem to come with about 20 feet of
wire. Mounted on a console with the radio right there, I could get by
with about 3 feet of wire. Is all the extra wire necessary?


No, it's not. If you're not a solderer, find someone who can put a new
connector on the radio end of your cable or make up a new cable. The Metz
does NOT have a cable attached to it....one of its great features. YOU
put
the cable on it so the cable can be replaced....not hard wired into the
plastic, like the little whips from Shakespeare come.

The farce of "tuning" the antenna with cable length is nonsense....
True, you don't "tune" the antenna with cable length, but you need a certain
amount of it to properly tune the antenna. My memory is rusty and I'd have
to go dig out the books, but I think you should have a 1/2 wavelength or so
in cable length. Maybe it's a 1/4 .... can't remember. Too short will
cause the antenna not to load properly (assuming it is the correct length)
and result in an excessive SWR value that reduces effective transmitted
power and, in the worst situation, cause damage to the output stage of the
radio.

If you have matching problems with the antenna and are fairly certain
that the antenna, connectors are known good and the radio is
presenting power properly, then the suspect is the length of the
feedline.

End result - you trim the feeline to bring the antenna to the correct
match. Thus you are tuning the antenna using the feedline.

That's why God invented antenna tuners. :)

That is the beauty of rec.boats, even when you think every possible
boating discussion has been beat to death, a new informative topic will
arise, that we can learn from.

Of course, we will beat this one to death.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

HK wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..
Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

You're kidding about the difficulty in putting a connector on
properly, aren't you? I've done it at least a dozen times over the
years the old fashioned way (never used one of the quickie "crimp"
connectors).
Harry, the connector is not the issue (assuming it's done in a
decent manner).
The proper loading of any RF antenna is a complex relationship of
the designed output impedance of the radio, the characteristic
impedance of the transmission line (cable) and the impedance of the
antenna.

Higher powered RF transmitters have tuning boxes between the radio
output and the transmission line/antenna arrangement that
effectively changes the length with capacitors and inductors to
optimize power transfer.

I agree that at 25 watts and a on typical boat installation it isn't
going to make much difference.
To an RF engineer, it will all look and operate like trash anyway.

Eisboch
As I said, so long as I can reach the Coast Guard, I don't really
care much about VHF communication. We have really good cell coverage
most everywhere on the Bay.


Until that Yamaha coughs, you drop your cell phone overboard, the wind
is picking up, water splashing over that LT, and your radio's output
stage sizzles because the SWR ratio is 4 to 1 or something. :-)


I am a nerd about this stuff and set the boat's radio systems up with
SWR meters because I can't help it. The result though is that I can
communicate easily with boats 20 miles away.

Eisboch



I've listened to the usual channels on VHF for hours at a time and
hardly ever hear much conversation. I can call the CG on my VHF, and
maybe with all the breaks some other boater within range will come by
for a look see. But unless you are in one of the higher boater density
areas, you're mostly all along out there. Where I fish for flounder, I
can go half the day without seeing another boat.

Frankly, I think we need something a lot better than VHF, some variant
of marine cell (not satellite) for in shore and near shore. The bigger
offshore boats that sink, well, we need more fishing reefs anyway, right?

Harry how often do you fish for flounder. It is one of my favorites,
and if I had founder available, I might just take up fishing.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..
Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

You're kidding about the difficulty in putting a connector on
properly, aren't you? I've done it at least a dozen times over the
years the old fashioned way (never used one of the quickie "crimp"
connectors).
Harry, the connector is not the issue (assuming it's done in a
decent manner).
The proper loading of any RF antenna is a complex relationship of
the designed output impedance of the radio, the characteristic
impedance of the transmission line (cable) and the impedance of the
antenna.

Higher powered RF transmitters have tuning boxes between the radio
output and the transmission line/antenna arrangement that
effectively changes the length with capacitors and inductors to
optimize power transfer.

I agree that at 25 watts and a on typical boat installation it
isn't going to make much difference.
To an RF engineer, it will all look and operate like trash anyway.

Eisboch
As I said, so long as I can reach the Coast Guard, I don't really
care much about VHF communication. We have really good cell coverage
most everywhere on the Bay.


Until that Yamaha coughs, you drop your cell phone overboard, the
wind is picking up, water splashing over that LT, and your radio's
output stage sizzles because the SWR ratio is 4 to 1 or something.
:-)


I am a nerd about this stuff and set the boat's radio systems up with
SWR meters because I can't help it. The result though is that I can
communicate easily with boats 20 miles away.

Eisboch



I've listened to the usual channels on VHF for hours at a time and
hardly ever hear much conversation. I can call the CG on my VHF, and
maybe with all the breaks some other boater within range will come by
for a look see. But unless you are in one of the higher boater density
areas, you're mostly all along out there. Where I fish for flounder, I
can go half the day without seeing another boat.

Frankly, I think we need something a lot better than VHF, some variant
of marine cell (not satellite) for in shore and near shore. The bigger
offshore boats that sink, well, we need more fishing reefs anyway, right?

Harry how often do you fish for flounder. It is one of my favorites,
and if I had founder available, I might just take up fishing.



If the Bay is calm or at least absent hard chop, I run the nine miles
over to the other side (the western shore of the Eastern Shore, as it
were), and fish the drop-offs (where the underwater depth transitions
sharply from 20' to 30' usually with live bait, such as minnows. I'd
love to try live shrimp, but there aren't any that I've been able to
locate for sale up here. If I go out four or five times a month, I'll
try for flounder two or three times, assuming appropriate conditions.

The flounder fishing in NE Florida is about 1000% better in the ICW and
in its creeks and under its docks. The fishing in the Bay up here is no
better than mediocre, compared to Florida. It's significantly better
down at the mouth of the Bay, near Virginia Beach, where the Bay flows
into the Atlantic Ocean.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:09:22 -0400, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:44:13 -0400, HK wrote:

VHF is just a clunky way to communicate when you have cell
phones and friends out in boats with cell phones.

Tell me, just out of curiosity, what is your understanding of how cell
phones work?


Let's see. I dial a phone number on my cell, I hear ringing, and either
the person I am calling answers, or I get his voice mail. The Bay
shoreline is peppered with cell towers; the only dead spot I have
encountered in years here is in the marina.

Do I need to know more about how cell phones work? Do I need a SWR meter
for my built in cell antenna? Directions in pushing the number keys?

Keys? I always call them buttons. I better find the cell manual.
This is one of those so far f**ked up threads with no answer for me
yet, but we'll get there.
There's at least 2 eccentrics with radio backgrounds slinging ****,
and one seemingly normal guy who stated the only useful info - he
commonly talks 20 miles with his VHF. But even he has some kind
of wave gizmo to constantly check that his signals are "tuned."
Bunch of weirdos. And us cell phone guys have to rely on them?

--Vic

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:58:32 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

I am a nerd about this stuff and set the boat's radio systems up with SWR
meters because I can't help it.

Amen brother - amen.

I have an antenna tuner under the console so if I need to retune to
get the best match, I can.

Now that's obcessive. :)

Putting on a connector without the proper tools can also suck. I can
install connectors, but after doing a thousand or two in the USAF, you get
fairly good. But people nick the center conductor and and install the radio
without an SWR meter. You can adjust the SWR on any fixed mount Icom from
what I know. My M45 has a screw in the back to adjust to the impedence.
The major problem I have with most of the fixed radios is the lack of a
decent speaker. I have a remote speaker and that is also to small to be
heard clearly while running.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:09:22 -0400, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:44:13 -0400, HK wrote:

VHF is just a clunky way to communicate when you have cell
phones and friends out in boats with cell phones.

Tell me, just out of curiosity, what is your understanding of how cell
phones work?


Let's see. I dial a phone number on my cell, I hear ringing, and either
the person I am calling answers, or I get his voice mail. The Bay
shoreline is peppered with cell towers; the only dead spot I have
encountered in years here is in the marina.

Do I need to know more about how cell phones work? Do I need a SWR meter
for my built in cell antenna? Directions in pushing the number keys?

I was just curious - that's all.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:33:34 -0500, John H.
wrote:



Well, it's not beat to death yet. I'm getting conflicting views on this
antenna cable length. I really don't like having 20' of cable coiled up in
the console. There's not much space there already.

But, I'll do what I have to do.

Hang in there John. It'll wash out. Maybe.

--Vic

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

John H. wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:53:20 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:37:27 +0000, Larry wrote:

It's not on larger boats, either. At 55' atop the mainmast of an Amel
Sharki 40 ketch, the Metz easily outperforms the 8' monsters, which must
be mounted lower.
What - you work for them or something?

Metz antennas are crap - always have been, always will be.

Junk.

Tom, according to the Metz website, they are used by the Coast Guard. This
is also said on other sites I've visited. See: http://tinyurl.com/22m7sy

Is there a specific reason you don't like them, the Metz Manta 6
specifically?


I had a Metz on one of my Seapros. It disintegrated. Replaced it with a
Shakespeare that was problem-free. Had a Digital brand antenna on Father
Yo Ho.

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

"John H." wrote in message
...


Well, it's not beat to death yet. I'm getting conflicting views on this
antenna cable length. I really don't like having 20' of cable coiled up in
the console. There's not much space there already.

But, I'll do what I have to do.


Don't worry about it. Cut it, but leave about 12 feet total.

Eisboch

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...

Keys? I always call them buttons. I better find the cell manual.
This is one of those so far f**ked up threads with no answer for me
yet, but we'll get there.
There's at least 2 eccentrics with radio backgrounds slinging ****,
and one seemingly normal guy who stated the only useful info - he
commonly talks 20 miles with his VHF. But even he has some kind
of wave gizmo to constantly check that his signals are "tuned."
Bunch of weirdos. And us cell phone guys have to rely on them?

--Vic

If I sound "seemingly normal", you need to have a chat with Mrs.E. :-)

Eisboch

Yo! Harry! (or anyone else) Antenna question
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:36:58 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:53:20 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:37:27 +0000, Larry wrote:

It's not on larger boats, either. At 55' atop the mainmast of an Amel
Sharki 40 ketch, the Metz easily outperforms the 8' monsters, which must
be mounted lower.

What - you work for them or something?

Metz antennas are crap - always have been, always will be.

Junk.

Tom, according to the Metz website, they are used by the Coast Guard. This
is also said on other sites I've visited. See: http://tinyurl.com/22m7sy

Is there a specific reason you don't like them, the Metz Manta 6
specifically?

Yes - they are junk.

End of story.

And their warranty sucks.

Oh - did I mention they are junk?