I don't consider the Great Lakes to be Bluewater. I have always heard the
expression "Bluewater" in reference to the dark bright blue color of the
ocean far far from shore where it is not colored by sediment. It is not my
definition, it is one used by people who sail and cross the oceans.
http://www.bwsailing.com/.

Now if you want to call the Great Lakes, Bluewater, feel free.

But I must have missed something along the way, I didn't realize I was in an
argument. To be real honest with, I have no concerns if anyone buys a
SeaRay. In fact, I really don't care if someone buys a SeaRay to cross the
Pacific. The point I was trying to make was that SeaRay is a good boat,
nothing more or nothing less. I saw a few posts where people were bad
mouthing SeaRay, and I was coming to SeaRay's defense. It is a reasonable
priced boat, that many people enjoy. Now if you want to believe SeaRay is
the best boat in the world, so be it.


"Jim" wrote in message
news:fMx3b.223030$Oz4.59791@rwcrnsc54...

"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:O_w3b.287041$o%2.132449@sccrnsc02...
The difference is being able to outrun bad weather. Bluewater is
normally
considered way offshore, (I normally think about it being over 100 miles
offshore, some people think bluewater is when you cross an ocean, who
the
heck knows). If you are in the middle of the Great Lakes and a fast
front
moves through, you may not be able to outrun it, but a fast front will
also
blow over quickly. I have seen sailboats demasted by storms in both the
Great Lakes and the ocean. An heavy built boat will continue to float
after
being demasted, a lightly built sailboat can actually crack in half. I
think it was in San Diego America's Cup, a boat built for 15 knots winds
split in the middle when the wind picked up to 20 knots.

If you are boating close to shore, I would not worry about boating in a
SeaRay.

People do not boat "off shore" on the Great Lakes in a Sea Ray? Lakes
Superior and
Huron are close to 200 miles in breadth.

http://coas****ch.glerl.noaa.gov/sta.../physical.html

And "blue water" is 100 miles off shore??????? Really? Perhaps to you
because it now
suits your argument.

Thanks Bill, especially for the civil discussion. With my 25+ years experience of
boating on the Great Lakes, storm fronts coming in quickly do tend to blow over
*relatively* fast, but I would suspect the same is true on the east or west coast.

Have a pleasant evening.


"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:ZJy3b.223180$Oz4.60144@rwcrnsc54...
Jim,
I understand fronts do not necessarily blow over quickly, but when they come
storming in quickly, they normally blow over quickly. Or at least that is
what I have seen in my limited experience.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:Qmx3b.290014$uu5.64343@sccrnsc04...
So it is more hull design vs layup and structure (as you originally
contended). ;-)

BTW: Fronts do not necessarily blow over quickly on the Great Lakes.
They can last as
long and can be as severe as storms over the oceans.



"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:O_w3b.287041$o%2.132449@sccrnsc02...
The difference is being able to outrun bad weather. Bluewater is
normally
considered way offshore, (I normally think about it being over 100 miles
offshore, some people think bluewater is when you cross an ocean, who
the
heck knows). If you are in the middle of the Great Lakes and a fast
front
moves through, you may not be able to outrun it, but a fast front will
also
blow over quickly. I have seen sailboats demasted by storms in both the
Great Lakes and the ocean. An heavy built boat will continue to float
after
being demasted, a lightly built sailboat can actually crack in half. I
think it was in San Diego America's Cup, a boat built for 15 knots winds
split in the middle when the wind picked up to 20 knots.

If you are boating close to shore, I would not worry about boating in a
SeaRay. If I was boating offshore I would watch the weather faxes and
forecasts no matter what boat I was in. It is possible that a SeaRay
would
have survived the storm that sunk the Ed. Fitz., but I would not want to
be
riding out the storm in a SeaRay. The stress put on a small boat is
completely different than a large ship.



"Jim" wrote in message
news:e9w3b.222689$Oz4.59236@rwcrnsc54...
Actually you never answered my question. Why is a SeaRay suitable for
the
conditions
on the Great Lakes but not for the conditions in "blue water"?

Are you saying that the ocean conditions are far worse than the Great
Lakes can offer?


"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:j4w3b.289614$uu5.63903@sccrnsc04...
Let's see you asked many questions, let me answer them Yes, Yes,
Depends
upon what you want to use the boat for. Yes, Yes. ; )

The waves that sunk the Edmund Fitzgerald would sink many boats.
The
difference between the average boat and what is considered a
bluewater
boat
is the thickness of the hull, the lay-up schedule, the strength of
the
bulk
heads, the backing plates etc. SeaRays are designed to be fun boats
for
the
average boater. The smaller ones are nice runabouts, the larger
ones
are
nice weekenders. I would feel very comfortable using a SeaRay on
the
Great
Lakes, but I would watch the weather carefully no matter what boat I
was
on.
If you compare a SeaRay to a 60's Hatteras you will see a world of
difference between the quality of the boats. Most people do not
want to
pay
for a Hatteras. In runabouts Cobalt is the top of the line boat,
and
most
people would see a difference in the way a Cobalt is built compared
to a
SeaRay, but you will pay approx. double for a Cobalt.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:YHv3b.222617$Oz4.59426@rwcrnsc54...
Bill, I would agree that SeaRays are really not designed for
fishing,
but
what exactly
is it about bluewater that makes it too challenging for SeaRays?
The
wave
heights?
The swells? Are the fuel tanks too small (not a structural
issue)?

Have you ever boated on the Great Lakes? Does the Edmund
Fitzgerald
ring
a bell?

There are plenty of SeaRays on the Great Lakes. ;-)



"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:dyv3b.289427$uu5.63833@sccrnsc04...
SeaRay is not a bluewater boat. Neither are most boats sold to
the
average
consumer. It is a fair weather boat, designed for lake use,
inshore
or
close to shore use. While the patch shown in Pasco's pictures
might
have
been a patch done at the factory, it is definitely a patch and
not
reflective of their normal FRP lay-up.

While most of us think a Mercedes or BMW is a better car than
Ford,
Chev
y
and Honda, very few of us are willing to pay that much for a
car.
It is
the
same with boats. If you want an offshore battlewagon, a Searay
is
not
the
boat you want. I don't think Searay markets or sells their
boats as
offshore battlewagons. They make a good low to middle priced
boat,
that
many boaters enjoy.


"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:59:51 GMT, "Paul"
wrote:

If I can pipe up he

Larry, it seems that many of us here (like me) are new
boaters
and we
use
this newsgroup mainly to learn about the mystifying world of
boating.

Your point about that Searay is well taken but now Gould has
provided
another comment from the exact same source you've quoted.

I don't appreciate the fact that you knew this quote existed
and
you
purposely ignored it. If you have a problem with Searay you
should be
adding
the caveat that your personal experience is different. I
understand
you
own
a lemon and I'm sorry you got suckered into buying it but
that's
no
reason
to purposely offer only partial info from third parties and
claim
it
as
the
complete story. It is unfair to those of us who are trying to
learn.

Boating and all that is related to it is difficult enough to
learn
without
people muddying the waters to further their own bitterness
about
a
certain
product.


There are more negative Searay comments than just the
hurricane
pictures
Larry is talking about.
Perhaps the Searay defenders are equally as disingenuous.
Take a look through the entire site ate the Searay reviews and
photos.

Wayne,
That is the definition of Bluewater I have always heard. I have seen the
dark bright blue color and it is very beautiful. I think I always thought
of it as being about 100 miles offshore, because that is when I started to
notice the color change. It also is totally different than the light blue
of the Caribbean.

While I have sailed and boated in the Great Lakes, it can be very beautiful.
While the Great Lakes are looking much cleaner, it does not resemble the
"bluewater" you see in the middle of the ocean.


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:19:58 GMT, "Bill Cole"
wrote:
Bluewater is normally
considered way offshore, (I normally think about it being over 100 miles
offshore, some people think bluewater is when you cross an ocean, who the
heck knows).
==========================

"Blue Water" actually begins when you go off soundings at the edge of
the continental shelf. Along much of the east coast, this is in the
range of 60 to 100 miles offshore. On the Pacific coast it is much
closer. The color of the water actually does change to a dark
iridescent blue which is hard to describe. Blue water is generally
used to describe conditions of large, deep, open water where you are
too far from port to easily return in the event of bad weather.

Bill, I have never considered or hinted that the Great Lakes are *blue water* bodies of
water. However, when you consider the depths and breadths of the Great Lakes
(excluding Lake Erie) , a similarity can certainly be drawn, as I have previously
eluded to.

In the case of Lake Erie, bad seas come on fast and furious due to the extreme shallow
depths of the Lake. The frequency of waves is much closer as compared to deeper bodies
of water and the swells deeper, making boat travel much more dangerous.


"Bill Cole" wrote in message
newsWy3b.219877$cF.72309@rwcrnsc53...
I don't consider the Great Lakes to be Bluewater. I have always heard the
expression "Bluewater" in reference to the dark bright blue color of the
ocean far far from shore where it is not colored by sediment. It is not my
definition, it is one used by people who sail and cross the oceans.
http://www.bwsailing.com/.

Now if you want to call the Great Lakes, Bluewater, feel free.

But I must have missed something along the way, I didn't realize I was in an
argument. To be real honest with, I have no concerns if anyone buys a
SeaRay. In fact, I really don't care if someone buys a SeaRay to cross the
Pacific. The point I was trying to make was that SeaRay is a good boat,
nothing more or nothing less. I saw a few posts where people were bad
mouthing SeaRay, and I was coming to SeaRay's defense. It is a reasonable
priced boat, that many people enjoy. Now if you want to believe SeaRay is
the best boat in the world, so be it.


"Jim" wrote in message
news:fMx3b.223030$Oz4.59791@rwcrnsc54...

"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:O_w3b.287041$o%2.132449@sccrnsc02...
The difference is being able to outrun bad weather. Bluewater is
normally
considered way offshore, (I normally think about it being over 100 miles
offshore, some people think bluewater is when you cross an ocean, who
the
heck knows). If you are in the middle of the Great Lakes and a fast
front
moves through, you may not be able to outrun it, but a fast front will
also
blow over quickly. I have seen sailboats demasted by storms in both the
Great Lakes and the ocean. An heavy built boat will continue to float
after
being demasted, a lightly built sailboat can actually crack in half. I
think it was in San Diego America's Cup, a boat built for 15 knots winds
split in the middle when the wind picked up to 20 knots.

If you are boating close to shore, I would not worry about boating in a
SeaRay.

People do not boat "off shore" on the Great Lakes in a Sea Ray? Lakes
Superior and
Huron are close to 200 miles in breadth.

http://coas****ch.glerl.noaa.gov/sta.../physical.html

And "blue water" is 100 miles off shore??????? Really? Perhaps to you
because it now
suits your argument.

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:17:35 GMT, "Bill Cole"
wrote:

Let's see you asked many questions, let me answer them Yes, Yes, Depends
upon what you want to use the boat for. Yes, Yes. ; )

The waves that sunk the Edmund Fitzgerald would sink many boats. The
difference between the average boat and what is considered a bluewater boat
is the thickness of the hull, the lay-up schedule, the strength of the bulk
heads, the backing plates etc. SeaRays are designed to be fun boats for the
average boater. The smaller ones are nice runabouts, the larger ones are
nice weekenders. I would feel very comfortable using a SeaRay on the Great
Lakes, but I would watch the weather carefully no matter what boat I was on.
If you compare a SeaRay to a 60's Hatteras you will see a world of
difference between the quality of the boats. Most people do not want to pay
for a Hatteras. In runabouts Cobalt is the top of the line boat, and most
people would see a difference in the way a Cobalt is built compared to a
SeaRay, but you will pay approx. double for a Cobalt.

My point is he can buy a USED, sturdy Hatteras for what Sea Bayliner
wants for one of those "lake boats" you can poke your finger through
made of putty. A 40' Sea Bayliner ain't cheap, by any stretch of the
imagination.....



Larry W4CSC

Isn't it becoming more practical by the day to make
Iraq's desert the new World Nuclear Waste Disposal Site?

I for one would prefer a Hatteras, but after 10 - 15yrs. you can expect to
spend a lot of time maintaining an older boat.


"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:17:35 GMT, "Bill Cole"
wrote:

Let's see you asked many questions, let me answer them Yes, Yes, Depends
upon what you want to use the boat for. Yes, Yes. ; )

The waves that sunk the Edmund Fitzgerald would sink many boats. The
difference between the average boat and what is considered a bluewater
boat
is the thickness of the hull, the lay-up schedule, the strength of the
bulk
heads, the backing plates etc. SeaRays are designed to be fun boats for
the
average boater. The smaller ones are nice runabouts, the larger ones are
nice weekenders. I would feel very comfortable using a SeaRay on the
Great
Lakes, but I would watch the weather carefully no matter what boat I was
on.
If you compare a SeaRay to a 60's Hatteras you will see a world of
difference between the quality of the boats. Most people do not want to
pay
for a Hatteras. In runabouts Cobalt is the top of the line boat, and
most
people would see a difference in the way a Cobalt is built compared to a
SeaRay, but you will pay approx. double for a Cobalt.

My point is he can buy a USED, sturdy Hatteras for what Sea Bayliner
wants for one of those "lake boats" you can poke your finger through
made of putty. A 40' Sea Bayliner ain't cheap, by any stretch of the
imagination.....



Larry W4CSC

Isn't it becoming more practical by the day to make
Iraq's desert the new World Nuclear Waste Disposal Site?

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 03:06:58 GMT, "Bill Cole"
wrote:

I for one would prefer a Hatteras, but after 10 - 15yrs. you can expect to
spend a lot of time maintaining an older boat.


The way they build them now, you can expect to spend a lot of time
fixing the shoddy workmanship the used boat's owner will have already
corrected, too.

It's about a good survey.....





Larry W4CSC

Isn't it becoming more practical by the day to make
Iraq's desert the new World Nuclear Waste Disposal Site?

ANYTIME is the best time to purchase a boat!

Lloyd

Jim,
I'm no expert, but I don't believe so. The Great Lakes Boats are shallow
draft and a lot longer in comparison to ocean going vessels. They move iron
ore, and other products, between non ocean ports. If I'm incorrect. I'm sure
I'll hear about it. :-)
Paul

"Jim" wrote in message
news:Gjx3b.287953$Ho3.40000@sccrnsc03...

"Don White" wrote in message
...
I doubt the 'Great Lakes freighters' would survive many North Atlantic
crossings.

Ummm...sorry to inform you Don but they do all the time.

Paul,
Larry is not a surveyor and no surveyor would evaluate a boat over the
internet. If the boat looks good to you, and the price is competitive to
other similar boats in your market, make an offer contingent upon receiving
a good survey from a qualified surveyor.

Do not take anyone opinions in a NG as anything but their opinion.

You can see what other 30 ft. SeaRays are selling for at:
www.boattrader.com

and what NADA says wholesale and retail estimates are at:
www.nadaguides.com

http://www3.nadaguides.com/SectionHo...Sec=4&wPg=1172

NADA prices are based upon the average new retail and then they discount the
price "X" percent each year. It is not the same as the "comps" you get when
you are buying a home, and prices can vary considerable based upon condition
of boat and location.

In other words, there are no easy answers.

Bill.
"Paul Schilter" paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote in message
...
Larry,
It sounds as though you've had a bad experience with SeaRay, sorry to
hear this. I'm considering buying an 89 SeaRay 30 " Weekender. I'm told
this is the last year that SeaRay was independently owned and that this
year
hull had prop pockets. Would your criticism include this model year? The
price, $30 to 45K seems reasonable.
Paul

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 03:06:58 GMT, "Bill Cole"
wrote:

I for one would prefer a Hatteras, but after 10 - 15yrs. you can expect
to
spend a lot of time maintaining an older boat.


The way they build them now, you can expect to spend a lot of time
fixing the shoddy workmanship the used boat's owner will have already
corrected, too.

It's about a good survey.....





Larry W4CSC

Isn't it becoming more practical by the day to make
Iraq's desert the new World Nuclear Waste Disposal Site?