Here's one more link on the motorcycle/bicycle steering subject, and I'll
let it now drop.
For the non-believers, I've quoted a small section of the article below:

"The concept of turning the front wheel one way to go the opposite way
certainly is counterintuitive. Those of us who started riding before there
was rider training probably had to grasp the concept by ourselves, and
perhaps we did it subconsciously. And some people never quite realize that
you steer left to go right and vice versa. In fact, I have heard some
longtime riders insist that that's not the case, that motorcycles steer the
way the front wheel is initially turned. I have also heard bicyclists deny
that a bicycle steers this way. The issue is also confused by the fact that
you can steer a motorcycle by leaning, as anyone who has ridden any distance
with their hands off the bars (a practice that can lead to disaster if you
hit something in the road or have a flat tire, I need to point out) can
testify. Some motorcyclists will tell you that shifting your body weight is
the primary way to steer a motorcycle."

Source:

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/str...untersteering/


Eisboch

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
news
No one can give you a good answer without knowing a good deal more about
your set-up.
For instance: How closely spaced are the outboards, are they both
righthand/left hand wheels, are they counter rotating (inboard turning,
outboard turning)...so forth and so on.
Best bet, find out this info then find someone in your area with a
similar set-up who seems (from observation) to know how to handle his/her
boat, and ask for help.

otn





"Joe" wrote in message
link.net...
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and
how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin
Evinrude 200's.

-When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when
maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm
having a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to
be. ARG!!! So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to
abandon that effort and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get
accustom to doing that if it's actually easier to use the engines.

ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Interesting question. I'm just lurking here, so I'll tag on another
question that might be related. Inboards, even when in neutral, exert
some force on the boat that can be used to move in a certain
direction. Do outboards do this?

Ok forget all about the cycle analogies you are reading. If you're in a
pinch and get nervous, remember this.

Look at your shifters/throttles. See how the port throttle bends or is
angled towards starboard? And the reverse is true for the starboard
throttle/shifter? This was done for ergonomics, but it's a great helper as
well. The part of the boat you want to steer will always follow that bend.
So if you want the stern to go to starboard in reverse, then the port
shifter should be used (in reverse). Visualize it... you pull the port
shifter to reverse, and that bend is pointing starboard... the stern will go
the direction of the bend. Take that same port ****er and move it forward,
and the bow will move to starboard... same direction as the bend. Want to go
in circles about the boat? On ahead and one aft, and the boat will pivot in
the direction of the bend in the shifters. Try it.

--Mike

"Joe" wrote in message
link.net...
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and how
it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude
200's.

-When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when
maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having a
hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!!
So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort
and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that
if it's actually easier to use the engines.

ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:53:43 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I guess you all will have to just go try it. It's due to the gryoscopic
stability of the bike.

I just returned from my morning bike ride on my brandy new mountain
bike. I push the handle bar left, it goes bicycle goes right. I lean
left, the bicycle goes left.

I think, based on this morning's experiments, that this is one of
those Myths (don't bother - I've already submitted it to Mythbusters)
that is based on observation error.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Now .... did you know that helicopters were impossible to fly until
gyroscopic progression was recognized and accounted for in the control of
the rotating airfoils?

Yes.

Somehow boating will tie into this somewhere.....

Pontoons on helicopters. And the CG and Navy fly helicopters.

Ipso Facto - QED - boating thread. :)

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:29:19 -0400, Eisboch wrote:


No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I
haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the
motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing.
Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right.

I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad.
So did I until I tried it.

It might help to explain, pushing left *initiates* a left turn. I think
everyone understands motorcycles turn by leaning, and pushing left is the
quickest way to get that left-hand lean. If you kept pushing left, you
wouldn't be turning, you would be on the ground, on the left hand side of
the motorcycle of course.

I found this one paragraph from one of your links quite clarifying.

"If we intentionally move the contact patch line from vertically beneath
the Center of Gravity, the bike will start to lean. For example, if while
riding the bike straight ahead, we press on the left bar the front wheel
points to the right. The front wheel tracks to the right (sometimes
called “out tracking�). So the weight of bike and rider is now to the
LEFT of it’s “support� on the ground, the tire contact patches. Because
the weight is to the left, the bike leans to the left. It is important to
note, for a LEFT turn, we initiate a lean to the left by pressing on the
left bar, turning the front wheel to the RIGHT. This is often referred to
as COUNTERSTEERING: a turn to the left initiated by turning the front
wheel to the right."

"thunder" wrote in message
news

It might help to explain, pushing left *initiates* a left turn. I think
everyone understands motorcycles turn by leaning, and pushing left is the
quickest way to get that left-hand lean. If you kept pushing left, you
wouldn't be turning, you would be on the ground, on the left hand side of
the motorcycle of course.

I found this one paragraph from one of your links quite clarifying.

"If we intentionally move the contact patch line from vertically beneath
the Center of Gravity, the bike will start to lean. For example, if while
riding the bike straight ahead, we press on the left bar the front wheel
points to the right. The front wheel tracks to the right (sometimes
called "out tracking"). So the weight of bike and rider is now to the
LEFT of it's "support" on the ground, the tire contact patches. Because
the weight is to the left, the bike leans to the left. It is important to
note, for a LEFT turn, we initiate a lean to the left by pressing on the
left bar, turning the front wheel to the RIGHT. This is often referred to
as COUNTERSTEERING: a turn to the left initiated by turning the front
wheel to the right."


I agree with the "initiates".

It is an interesting action though and may be readily experienced if you
ride straight and level at a constant speed, then very gently push one of
the bars without leaning or correcting in any other way. Push too hard and
you *will* have to take corrective action, otherwise you will go down.

Oh, well. Enough of that.

Eisboch

On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:14:51 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"thunder" wrote in message
news

It might help to explain, pushing left *initiates* a left turn. I think
everyone understands motorcycles turn by leaning, and pushing left is the
quickest way to get that left-hand lean. If you kept pushing left, you
wouldn't be turning, you would be on the ground, on the left hand side of
the motorcycle of course.

I found this one paragraph from one of your links quite clarifying.

"If we intentionally move the contact patch line from vertically beneath
the Center of Gravity, the bike will start to lean. For example, if while
riding the bike straight ahead, we press on the left bar the front wheel
points to the right. The front wheel tracks to the right (sometimes
called "out tracking"). So the weight of bike and rider is now to the
LEFT of it's "support" on the ground, the tire contact patches. Because
the weight is to the left, the bike leans to the left. It is important to
note, for a LEFT turn, we initiate a lean to the left by pressing on the
left bar, turning the front wheel to the RIGHT. This is often referred to
as COUNTERSTEERING: a turn to the left initiated by turning the front
wheel to the right."

I agree with the "initiates".

It is an interesting action though and may be readily experienced if you
ride straight and level at a constant speed, then very gently push one of
the bars without leaning or correcting in any other way. Push too hard and
you *will* have to take corrective action, otherwise you will go down.

Oh, well. Enough of that.

Oh no - your not getting out of this that easily. :)

"This is often referred to as COUNTERSTEERING"

Here is where I think the concepts are confusing.

Just for giggles, I borrowed the dirt bike from the kid across the
street and did some experiments on the straight and the S curves on my
road.

There is no way you can initiate a left hand turn by pushing the left
handlebar forward at speed going straight. It's not possible.

Now, if I lean left, I can control the turn by pushing the handlebar
up to maintain the angle of the turn and the angle of attack to the
curve. Just like a bicycle.

That is entirely different than initiating a left hand turn by pushing
the left handlebar forward.

And in case you are wondering what the neighbors thought of me running
up and down the road at differing speeds on a dirt bike at 6:40 AM and
turning right and left back and forth, don't worry about it. My
neighbors are used to the occasional slice of weirdness from me.

It's cheap entertainment. :)

On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:23:30 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:37:52 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"D.Duck" wrote in message
news:z4ednS8WPaSOkMPbnZ2dnUVZ_uSgnZ2d@gigane ws.com...

Lookie her:

http://www.rider-ed.com/tips/motorcyclestability.htm

Meant to type "Lookie here" .... anyway, the link describes gyroscopic
progression which is why JohnH was correct.

It took a long time to convince Motorcycle Safety Foundation students of
the same thing. The trick was to have them steer with one hand, then the
push right - go right idea begins to stick.

Take another look at that picture on the "lookee here" post.

See anything interesting?

On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:25:20 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On 30 May 2007 18:19:01 -0700, Chuck Gould
wrote:

On May 30, 5:20?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:







"D.Duck" wrote in message
m...

"John H." wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:

Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.

Huh?

He's correct. ame on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the
bike will make a left turn. ush the right handle forward, bike turns to
the right.

Try it sometime.

Ok I just did.

Pushing the left handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the right.

Pushing the right handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the left.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Did you take into account the shifting of your weight in order to
"push"
(down?) on the left handle bar?

The shifting of weight will lower the center of gravity, enabling a sharper
turn with less lean angle. I think Tom was just experimenting with a bike
at rest. If he had any speed on the bike, he'd be on the ground.

All due respect John, but I was riding and I've been riding bicycles
for a long time - since I was a kid in fact.

As to speed, there is a long hill with a right hand curve that I use
to build speed for a long straight run - that's where I did my
experimenting.

I didn't hit the ground.

On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:37:28 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:02:11 -0000, thunder wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:29:19 -0400, Eisboch wrote:


No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I
haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the
motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing.
Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right.

I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad.
So did I until I tried it.

It might help to explain, pushing left *initiates* a left turn. I think
everyone understands motorcycles turn by leaning, and pushing left is the
quickest way to get that left-hand lean. If you kept pushing left, you
wouldn't be turning, you would be on the ground, on the left hand side of
the motorcycle of course.

I found this one paragraph from one of your links quite clarifying.

"If we intentionally move the contact patch line from vertically beneath
the Center of Gravity, the bike will start to lean. For example, if while
riding the bike straight ahead, we press on the left bar the front wheel
points to the right. The front wheel tracks to the right (sometimes
called “out tracking”). So the weight of bike and rider is now to the
LEFT of it’s “support” on the ground, the tire contact patches. Because
the weight is to the left, the bike leans to the left. It is important to
note, for a LEFT turn, we initiate a lean to the left by pressing on the
left bar, turning the front wheel to the RIGHT. This is often referred to
as COUNTERSTEERING: a turn to the left initiated by turning the front
wheel to the right."

Yeah, countersteering. Push left - go left. Push right - go right.

Thank you.

Not the same thing. You don't puch left to go left - you push left
to maintain stability in the turn.

Not the same thing.