On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:19:30 +0000, kcb559 wrote:

"Calif Bill" wrote in message link.net...
"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:47:42 +0000, BinaryBillThesailo wrote:

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 07:09:29 -0700, "Lloyd Sumpter"
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:09:40 +0000, BinaryBillTheSailo wrote:

On 20 Aug 2003 00:50:01 -0700, (kcb559) wrote:

What is the difference between a Deep Cycle battery and a Trolling
battery? I'm buying a Minn Kota Endura 30 electric trolling motor and
can't decide on the battery. Even the salesman gives an unsure answer
as to the difference between the two. Which one do I buy???

-KCB

The difference you want to look at is between a trolling and a
starting battery.
There are some batteries that even claim to be both. What you want is
a deep
cycle battery that is specifically designed for trolling. Otherwise
your motor
will run like a rabbit for about 30 minutes and then taper off
quickly.


Actually, the motor will run identically between deepcyle/trolling and
starting.

Sorry Lloyd, but you are incorrect on that point.


Why? Does the deep cycle have different volts? Ohms law doesn't apply?

Lloyd



Same volts, just different time of availability. The Deep cycle has a
heavier, reinforced plate system. Allows more discharge and the ability to
recharge without the plates warping, and shorting together. The Starting
batt has more surface area, for high current flow for a short time.

SO, BASICALLY A DEEP CYCLE BATTERY AND A TROLLING BATTERY ARE THE SAME
THING AND WILL BOTH LAST ME LONGER (DUE TO THE NUMBER OF RECHARGES
AVAILABLE)THAN A STARTING BATTERY; HOWEVER, WITH THAT SMALL ENDURA 30,
A STARTING BATTERY WOULD WORK OKAY (ALTHOUGH IT WOULDN'T LAST AS LONG)
IF I KEPT THE SPEED DOWN AND DIDN'T ASK IT TO WORK TOO HARD. IS THAT
ABOUT IT?
-KCB

Kinda true. A starting battery will work OK if you don't discharge it
deeply. You can run "full-throttle" but only for maybe 1/2-hr, then
recharge. It STILL won't last as long as a deep-cycle, but I've been doing
that for 3 yrs now and the battery still works. One other thing: a "deep
discharge" on a starting battery will reduce it's capacity much more than
it will for a deep-cycle. Ie. you run a starting battery dead once, and it
will have maybe 50 A-H capacity rather than the 80 it had before.

Spend the extra $20 and get the deep-cycle.

Lloyd

"kcb559" wrote in message


Tom

SO, BASICALLY A DEEP CYCLE BATTERY AND A TROLLING BATTERY ARE THE SAME
THING AND WILL BOTH LAST ME LONGER (DUE TO THE NUMBER OF RECHARGES
AVAILABLE)THAN A STARTING BATTERY; HOWEVER, WITH THAT SMALL ENDURA 30,
A STARTING BATTERY WOULD WORK OKAY (ALTHOUGH IT WOULDN'T LAST AS LONG)
IF I KEPT THE SPEED DOWN AND DIDN'T ASK IT TO WORK TOO HARD. IS THAT
ABOUT IT?
-KCB

No, the starting battery will be very prone to failure after the 2 or 3rd
recharge. The plates warp and short out. If you get a Wal-mart or some
other 6 month full replacement battery, you may be ok on your money, but
every couple of months you will have to take the battery in. The difference
in price is negligible. A deep cycle group 27 at Costco is about $53.
Group 24 a couple of bucks cheaper. Wally world is probably in the same
price range.
Bill

"Calif Bill" wrote in message link.net...
"kcb559" wrote in message


Tom

SO, BASICALLY A DEEP CYCLE BATTERY AND A TROLLING BATTERY ARE THE SAME
THING AND WILL BOTH LAST ME LONGER (DUE TO THE NUMBER OF RECHARGES
AVAILABLE)THAN A STARTING BATTERY; HOWEVER, WITH THAT SMALL ENDURA 30,
A STARTING BATTERY WOULD WORK OKAY (ALTHOUGH IT WOULDN'T LAST AS LONG)
IF I KEPT THE SPEED DOWN AND DIDN'T ASK IT TO WORK TOO HARD. IS THAT
ABOUT IT?
-KCB

No, the starting battery will be very prone to failure after the 2 or 3rd
recharge. The plates warp and short out. If you get a Wal-mart or some
other 6 month full replacement battery, you may be ok on your money, but
every couple of months you will have to take the battery in. The difference
in price is negligible. A deep cycle group 27 at Costco is about $53.
Group 24 a couple of bucks cheaper. Wally world is probably in the same
price range.
Bill

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was in Wal*Mart the other day and their starting batteries carry a
TWO-YEAR FREE REPLACEMENT warranty. Wonder how many batteries before
they'd get tired of giving me yet another new one? 5, 10, 15? LOL...
-KCB

OKAY, I'VE FINALLY MADE A DECISION. I'M BUYING A DEEP CYCLE BATTERY.
NOW, NEXT ITEM...A 24 OR A 27 SERIES TO USE WITH THE MINN KOTA ENDURA
30? ALSO, AMP HOURS? IF I RUN THAT LITTLE ELECTRIC TROLLING MOTOR AT
MIDDLE SPEED WITH EACH, APPROXIMATELY WHAT WOULD I NEED IN AMP HOURS
TO TOOL AROUND THAT LAKE FOR 4 HOURS?

-KCB


If wieght and space aren't critical, go for the biggest battery available.
Better to have the capacity and not need it, than to need it and...........

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:33:59 +0000, kcb559 wrote:

(kcb559) wrote in message . com...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message link.net...
"kcb559" wrote in message


Tom

SO, BASICALLY A DEEP CYCLE BATTERY AND A TROLLING BATTERY ARE THE SAME
THING AND WILL BOTH LAST ME LONGER (DUE TO THE NUMBER OF RECHARGES
AVAILABLE)THAN A STARTING BATTERY; HOWEVER, WITH THAT SMALL ENDURA 30,
A STARTING BATTERY WOULD WORK OKAY (ALTHOUGH IT WOULDN'T LAST AS LONG)
IF I KEPT THE SPEED DOWN AND DIDN'T ASK IT TO WORK TOO HARD. IS THAT
ABOUT IT?
-KCB

No, the starting battery will be very prone to failure after the 2 or 3rd
recharge. The plates warp and short out. If you get a Wal-mart or some
other 6 month full replacement battery, you may be ok on your money, but
every couple of months you will have to take the battery in. The difference
in price is negligible. A deep cycle group 27 at Costco is about $53.
Group 24 a couple of bucks cheaper. Wally world is probably in the same
price range.
Bill

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was in Wal*Mart the other day and their starting batteries carry a
TWO-YEAR FREE REPLACEMENT warranty. Wonder how many batteries before
they'd get tired of giving me yet another new one? 5, 10, 15? LOL...
-KCB


################################################## #######################

OKAY, I'VE FINALLY MADE A DECISION. I'M BUYING A DEEP CYCLE BATTERY.
NOW, NEXT ITEM...A 24 OR A 27 SERIES TO USE WITH THE MINN KOTA ENDURA
30? ALSO, AMP HOURS? IF I RUN THAT LITTLE ELECTRIC TROLLING MOTOR AT
MIDDLE SPEED WITH EACH, APPROXIMATELY WHAT WOULD I NEED IN AMP HOURS
TO TOOL AROUND THAT LAKE FOR 4 HOURS?

-KCB

This is something I'm going to research and post my findings on the web
(or sell them to Minn Kota!). The closest thing to "amp-hrs" that they
admit to is "max amps", but it doesn't make sense (the 12V, 40-lb motor
supposedly draws more than the 50-lb model!). I will measure current draw
at various speeds for both my 30-lb Endura and 40-lb Maxum.

Until then...The Endura is supposed to draw 30A "max", so say 30A at
setting 5. I THINK, based on the little chart on the top, setting 4 would
be about 15-20A max, 3 would be about 12, 2 maybe 8, and 1 4 (something
like that). So at setting 3, you would use 48 amp-hours in 4 hrs.

This means you could probably get by with the lighter, smaller group 24.
As I've mentioned, I use the even smaller 22A, and putt around all
afternoon.

But Chuck is also right - if weight and size aren't an issue, get the
group 27!

Lloyd Sumpter
"Near Cove" Walker Bay 8 c/w Endura 30

OKAY, I'VE FINALLY MADE A DECISION. I'M BUYING A DEEP CYCLE BATTERY.
NOW, NEXT ITEM...A 24 OR A 27 SERIES TO USE WITH THE MINN KOTA ENDURA

I would get 2 24's and have a perko switch so I can switch to either battery
or both!
Larry Hill

Lloyd Sumpter wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:09:40 +0000, BinaryBillTheSailo wrote:


On 20 Aug 2003 00:50:01 -0700, (kcb559) wrote:


What is the difference between a Deep Cycle battery and a Trolling
battery? I'm buying a Minn Kota Endura 30 electric trolling motor and
can't decide on the battery. Even the salesman gives an unsure answer
as to the difference between the two. Which one do I buy???

-KCB

The difference you want to look at is between a trolling and a starting battery.
There are some batteries that even claim to be both. What you want is a deep
cycle battery that is specifically designed for trolling. Otherwise your motor
will run like a rabbit for about 30 minutes and then taper off quickly.



Actually, the motor will run identically between deepcyle/trolling and
starting. The difference is, the 4th or 5th time you run the battery down
to "dead", the starting battery won't come back up, but the deepcyle will.

The 22NF battery I use on my Endura 30 is a "starting" battery, and it
runs the motor fine. I just don't let it run down to more than maybe 50%.
I still expect it to not last that long, but it's on it's 3rd year now...
(It was a "Proof of Concept" purchase: I wanted the cheapest I could buy
in case it didn't work out.)

Lloyd

Lloyd


I've found that a deep cycle works ok for starting but, a starting
battery actually cranks the engine faster.

Rick

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:09:23 +0000, BinaryBil wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:03:26 -0700, "Lloyd Sumpter" wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:33:59 +0000, kcb559 wrote:

(kcb559) wrote in message . com...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message link.net...
"kcb559" wrote in message


Tom

SO, BASICALLY A DEEP CYCLE BATTERY AND A TROLLING BATTERY ARE THE SAME
THING AND WILL BOTH LAST ME LONGER (DUE TO THE NUMBER OF RECHARGES
AVAILABLE)THAN A STARTING BATTERY; HOWEVER, WITH THAT SMALL ENDURA 30,
A STARTING BATTERY WOULD WORK OKAY (ALTHOUGH IT WOULDN'T LAST AS LONG)
IF I KEPT THE SPEED DOWN AND DIDN'T ASK IT TO WORK TOO HARD. IS THAT
ABOUT IT?
-KCB

No, the starting battery will be very prone to failure after the 2 or 3rd
recharge. The plates warp and short out. If you get a Wal-mart or some
other 6 month full replacement battery, you may be ok on your money, but
every couple of months you will have to take the battery in. The difference
in price is negligible. A deep cycle group 27 at Costco is about $53.
Group 24 a couple of bucks cheaper. Wally world is probably in the same
price range.
Bill

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was in Wal*Mart the other day and their starting batteries carry a
TWO-YEAR FREE REPLACEMENT warranty. Wonder how many batteries before
they'd get tired of giving me yet another new one? 5, 10, 15? LOL...
-KCB


################################################## #######################

OKAY, I'VE FINALLY MADE A DECISION. I'M BUYING A DEEP CYCLE BATTERY.
NOW, NEXT ITEM...A 24 OR A 27 SERIES TO USE WITH THE MINN KOTA ENDURA
30? ALSO, AMP HOURS? IF I RUN THAT LITTLE ELECTRIC TROLLING MOTOR AT
MIDDLE SPEED WITH EACH, APPROXIMATELY WHAT WOULD I NEED IN AMP HOURS
TO TOOL AROUND THAT LAKE FOR 4 HOURS?

-KCB

This is something I'm going to research and post my findings on the web
(or sell them to Minn Kota!). The closest thing to "amp-hrs" that they
admit to is "max amps", but it doesn't make sense (the 12V, 40-lb motor
supposedly draws more than the 50-lb model!). I will measure current draw
at various speeds for both my 30-lb Endura and 40-lb Maxum.

Until then...The Endura is supposed to draw 30A "max", so say 30A at
setting 5. I THINK, based on the little chart on the top, setting 4 would
be about 15-20A max, 3 would be about 12, 2 maybe 8, and 1 4 (something
like that). So at setting 3, you would use 48 amp-hours in 4 hrs.


More meaningless guesswork from Lloyd, who really hasn't much of a clue. The
Maxum line of motors have an entirely different motor control system. The
Maxum's use PWM and infinitely variable control, (they call it "Maximizer")
while the less expensive and less efficient Endura series use a plain old 5
position switch and resistance to control speed. This makes a HUGE difference in
how long each motor will run at anything other than maximum WOT.


What's the EXACT current draw from A) the 30-lb Endura at position 3, and
B) the 40-lb Maximizer at 60% ?

Lloyd

"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:09:23 +0000, BinaryBil wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:03:26 -0700, "Lloyd Sumpter"
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:33:59 +0000, kcb559 wrote:

(kcb559) wrote in message
. com...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
link.net...
"kcb559" wrote in message


Tom

SO, BASICALLY A DEEP CYCLE BATTERY AND A TROLLING BATTERY ARE THE
SAME
THING AND WILL BOTH LAST ME LONGER (DUE TO THE NUMBER OF
RECHARGES
AVAILABLE)THAN A STARTING BATTERY; HOWEVER, WITH THAT SMALL
ENDURA 30,
A STARTING BATTERY WOULD WORK OKAY (ALTHOUGH IT WOULDN'T LAST AS
LONG)
IF I KEPT THE SPEED DOWN AND DIDN'T ASK IT TO WORK TOO HARD. IS
THAT
ABOUT IT?
-KCB

No, the starting battery will be very prone to failure after the 2
or 3rd
recharge. The plates warp and short out. If you get a Wal-mart or
some
other 6 month full replacement battery, you may be ok on your
money, but
every couple of months you will have to take the battery in. The
difference
in price is negligible. A deep cycle group 27 at Costco is about
$53.
Group 24 a couple of bucks cheaper. Wally world is probably in the
same
price range.
Bill


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was in Wal*Mart the other day and their starting batteries carry a
TWO-YEAR FREE REPLACEMENT warranty. Wonder how many batteries before
they'd get tired of giving me yet another new one? 5, 10, 15?
LOL...
-KCB



################################################## #######################

OKAY, I'VE FINALLY MADE A DECISION. I'M BUYING A DEEP CYCLE BATTERY.
NOW, NEXT ITEM...A 24 OR A 27 SERIES TO USE WITH THE MINN KOTA ENDURA
30? ALSO, AMP HOURS? IF I RUN THAT LITTLE ELECTRIC TROLLING MOTOR AT
MIDDLE SPEED WITH EACH, APPROXIMATELY WHAT WOULD I NEED IN AMP HOURS
TO TOOL AROUND THAT LAKE FOR 4 HOURS?

-KCB

This is something I'm going to research and post my findings on the web
(or sell them to Minn Kota!). The closest thing to "amp-hrs" that they
admit to is "max amps", but it doesn't make sense (the 12V, 40-lb motor
supposedly draws more than the 50-lb model!). I will measure current
draw
at various speeds for both my 30-lb Endura and 40-lb Maxum.

Until then...The Endura is supposed to draw 30A "max", so say 30A at
setting 5. I THINK, based on the little chart on the top, setting 4
would
be about 15-20A max, 3 would be about 12, 2 maybe 8, and 1 4 (something
like that). So at setting 3, you would use 48 amp-hours in 4 hrs.


More meaningless guesswork from Lloyd, who really hasn't much of a clue.
The
Maxum line of motors have an entirely different motor control system.
The
Maxum's use PWM and infinitely variable control, (they call it
"Maximizer")
while the less expensive and less efficient Endura series use a plain
old 5
position switch and resistance to control speed. This makes a HUGE
difference in
how long each motor will run at anything other than maximum WOT.


What's the EXACT current draw from A) the 30-lb Endura at position 3, and
B) the 40-lb Maximizer at 60% ?

Lloyd


Probably less with the Maximizer if they both are at the same thrust. The
Maximizer gives full voltage to the motor at all times via a pulsed DC and
reducing the duty cycle vs. the other motors give a reduced voltage via a
resistor to slow the motor down. The resistor burns up energy as heat,
therefore less time from the same battery. The pulsed DC has an effective
voltage less than the 12V's but the reduced voltage is not wasted as heat.
If you want all the numbers and formulas, I could probably go through my
college stuff and dig up my senior thesis where I disigned and built an
underwater dive light with an intensity control via a 555 timer and same
principals.
Bill

On 25 Aug 2003 04:37:53 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:
There's no
difference in the type of energy produced by a starting and depp cycle battery.
=======================================

That's not quite true although I agree that deep cycle batteries of
sufficient size make fine starting batteries.

The difference however is internal resistance. Because of the thinner
plates and other construction details, starting batteries have a lower
internal resistance to the flow of electricity which means that the
voltage at the terminals will be higher under heavy load (amperage).
On the other hand, the starting battery will be able to deliver high
current for a shorter period of time than a deep cycle, and will be
more easily damaged by sustained high current flow and deep discharge.