Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:


6a - Ensure that the owner understands that he/she will actually be
selling the boat if the survey and sea trial are acceptable to the
purchaser - not as a method to find out "how much the boat is worth".


What?
That's the oddest comment I ever heard about a boat deal.
It almost sounds like you set out across the country to survey a boat
without first agreeing on a price, "subject to survey".

The way the process should work, even with an out of state boat, would
be like this:

1. You notice a boat that is of interest to you and you get additional
details.
2. You decide that if the boat is as represented, it is what you want.
2a: If the boat is local, you make an initial inspection. If the boat
is not local, see 3a.
3. You make a written offer and bind it with a deposit. The offer is
subject to " satisfactory sea trial, satisfactory survey, acceptable
financing" and any other conditions you care to insert.
3a: If the boat is not local, you add "satisfactory inspection" to the
conditions.
4: You then wait for the seller to accept, reject, or counter your
conditional offer.
If the seller accepts your conditional terms (and if the broker puts
your deposit into his escrow account) the seller is legally obligated
to sell you the boat, at the price in your offer, provided that you are
satisfied with the sea trial, the survey, and any other conditions you
inserted in your offer.
5: The only way the seller can get out of the deal once he has accepted
your offer and deposit would be if *you* changed the conditions. For
instance, if your surveyor said, "The port side running light is out
and the flares are expired" you might go to the seller and say "You
will need to change the light bulb in the running light and furnish new
flares for this transaction to proceed" but if you do so and the seller
is looking for an out that's the point at which the seller can walk
away from the deal- you changed the conditions. Even though the offer
is "subject to" and you have a right to change the conditions, the
seller is never obligated to go along with the changes in terms or
conditions demanded by the buyer. The seller is only obligated to sell
if the buyer doesn't modify the terms under one of his escape clauses.
6: As a buyer, you have the flexibility to walk away from the deal at
almost any time.
When the transaction is subject to a "satisfactory" sea trial or
"satisfactory" survey, the buyer is the sole arbiter concerning the
level of his or her satisfaction. The boat can run beautifully, but if
you claim your are not subjectively satisfied nobody can effectively
dispute or challenge your feeling of satisfaction.


If you went through that entire process, have an accepted written
agreement in hand, have a deposit with the broker, etc., and want the
boat at the conditionally agreed price and without any changes or
improvements you have pretty solid grounds to sue the seller
for specific performance. (not that I'd recommend that--- a disgruntled
seller just might make sure there's a disastrous "surprise" planted
board a boat he has been forced to sell) If you don't sue for specific
performance, in this case you should be able to get an award for your
costs- including air fare, surveyor's fee, etc. Sue the broker as well
as the seller. The seller can sit back and flip his middle finger at
you *and* your judgment, but the broker has a surety bond on file (in
most states) and if he or she does not pay up you can find out who the
bonding company is and press them for payment.

However, if you flew across at least a portion of the country to survey
a boat without a written, conditional agreement the seller is on solid
legal ground with his "Thanks a lot!
That's really helpful! Now I know what a surveyor will say the boat is
worth!" response.

There are reasons that successful boat deals always stick to a pretty
rigid formula.
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong, so it's important to smoke
out all the foreigners in the wood pile at the beginning of the
process. If the guy wasn't really serious about selling his boat (in
your case) he wouldn't normally have signed the conditional agreement
or accepted your conditional price.

Regarding paragraph 6a.
FWIW, I've never let any surveyor I hired near the owner or broker of
any boat that I PAID to have surveyed. Surveys are considered
confidential ,and should not be disclosed to the owner/broker,
especially when you decide its a POS and pass on it. UD

UglyDan®©™ wrote:
Regarding paragraph 6a.
FWIW, I've never let any surveyor I hired near the owner or broker of
any boat that I PAID to have surveyed. Surveys are considered
confidential ,and should not be disclosed to the owner/broker,
especially when you decide its a POS and pass on it. UD

Precisely. The surveyor reports to the buyer. If the buyer chooses to
use the "satisfactory survey" escape clause, all he or she need to is
to say "sorry, but the survey was not satisfactory".

Depending upon what particular course a deal might take other than a
complete rejection of the vessel, it can be useful to use the survey
report during any post-survey negotiating with the seller. For
instance- if you want to amend your offer based on the survey you might
say, "Mr. Seller, my surveyor noted that the cabin top is delaminating.
He recommends that I have this repaired. This discovery changes my
opinion of your boat. I'm now willing to proceed with the transaction
only if you will reduce the price by the $9,000 that Local Boatyard
says it will cost to make the required repairs."

It wouldn't be entirely unreasonable for a seller, in that case, to ask
to see that particular item in the survey report. As a buyer you could
choose to show it to the seller or not, but I think you'd have a heck
of a tough time getting that $9000 price concession without some
evidence that you weren't merely talking through your hat.

As a buyer, there is no obligation to disclose the survey to the seller
or the seller's broker- but sometimes and in some circumstances it can
be used to the buyer's advantage.

Chuck Gould wrote:
Precisely. The surveyor reports to the buyer.

Yes, and many brokers will try to bend the process as far as
possible. From "helping" the buyer select a surveyor, to
hovering over the buyer while the survey is in progress, to
getting copies of the survey report and red-pencil-ing. Not
necessarily dishonest but not really straight either.


... If the buyer chooses to
use the "satisfactory survey" escape clause, all he or she need to is
to say "sorry, but the survey was not satisfactory".


This has to be rather carefully worded if you want it to
stand up in court. Satsifactory to whom? What conditions are
deemed satisfactory?

If written properly, the buyer can get out of the contract
on rather vague grounds, like saying he doesn't like the way
the boat handles at low speed, or hits waves funny. If
written improperly, the buyer can lose his deposit & his
chance to buy the boat and get a quick lesson in how to be
polite to a local judge.

It's a bit less formalized than buying a house, but less
informal than buying a car. The problem is that really
interesting boats are invariably far away from one's home.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On 18 Jul 2006 08:06:26 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:


Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:


6a - Ensure that the owner understands that he/she will actually be
selling the boat if the survey and sea trial are acceptable to the
purchaser - not as a method to find out "how much the boat is worth".


What?
That's the oddest comment I ever heard about a boat deal.
It almost sounds like you set out across the country to survey a boat
without first agreeing on a price, "subject to survey".

The way the process should work, even with an out of state boat, would
be like this:

1. You notice a boat that is of interest to you and you get additional
details.
2. You decide that if the boat is as represented, it is what you want.
2a: If the boat is local, you make an initial inspection. If the boat
is not local, see 3a.
3. You make a written offer and bind it with a deposit. The offer is
subject to " satisfactory sea trial, satisfactory survey, acceptable
financing" and any other conditions you care to insert.
3a: If the boat is not local, you add "satisfactory inspection" to the
conditions.
4: You then wait for the seller to accept, reject, or counter your
conditional offer.
If the seller accepts your conditional terms (and if the broker puts
your deposit into his escrow account) the seller is legally obligated
to sell you the boat, at the price in your offer, provided that you are
satisfied with the sea trial, the survey, and any other conditions you
inserted in your offer.
5: The only way the seller can get out of the deal once he has accepted
your offer and deposit would be if *you* changed the conditions. For
instance, if your surveyor said, "The port side running light is out
and the flares are expired" you might go to the seller and say "You
will need to change the light bulb in the running light and furnish new
flares for this transaction to proceed" but if you do so and the seller
is looking for an out that's the point at which the seller can walk
away from the deal- you changed the conditions. Even though the offer
is "subject to" and you have a right to change the conditions, the
seller is never obligated to go along with the changes in terms or
conditions demanded by the buyer. The seller is only obligated to sell
if the buyer doesn't modify the terms under one of his escape clauses.
6: As a buyer, you have the flexibility to walk away from the deal at
almost any time.
When the transaction is subject to a "satisfactory" sea trial or
"satisfactory" survey, the buyer is the sole arbiter concerning the
level of his or her satisfaction. The boat can run beautifully, but if
you claim your are not subjectively satisfied nobody can effectively
dispute or challenge your feeling of satisfaction.


If you went through that entire process, have an accepted written
agreement in hand, have a deposit with the broker, etc., and want the
boat at the conditionally agreed price and without any changes or
improvements you have pretty solid grounds to sue the seller
for specific performance. (not that I'd recommend that--- a disgruntled
seller just might make sure there's a disastrous "surprise" planted
board a boat he has been forced to sell) If you don't sue for specific
performance, in this case you should be able to get an award for your
costs- including air fare, surveyor's fee, etc. Sue the broker as well
as the seller. The seller can sit back and flip his middle finger at
you *and* your judgment, but the broker has a surety bond on file (in
most states) and if he or she does not pay up you can find out who the
bonding company is and press them for payment.

However, if you flew across at least a portion of the country to survey
a boat without a written, conditional agreement the seller is on solid
legal ground with his "Thanks a lot!
That's really helpful! Now I know what a surveyor will say the boat is
worth!" response.

There are reasons that successful boat deals always stick to a pretty
rigid formula.
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong, so it's important to smoke
out all the foreigners in the wood pile at the beginning of the
process. If the guy wasn't really serious about selling his boat (in
your case) he wouldn't normally have signed the conditional agreement
or accepted your conditional price.

Thanks for the informative post, Chuck. This one will be saved, just in
case Harry makes an offer I can't refuse!
--
******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

John

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
..

Thanks for the informative post, Chuck. This one will be saved, just in
case Harry makes an offer I can't refuse!


Normally, the buyer makes the offer, I think.

Eisboch

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
.

Thanks for the informative post, Chuck. This one will be saved, just in
case Harry makes an offer I can't refuse!


Normally, the buyer makes the offer, I think.

Eisboch


That seems to be the detail missing from this thread. ;-)