"TSC" wrote in message
...
I have the Siloc book. I went through the troubleshooting, and I have no
spark anywhere.

Curiously, the wiring diagrams in the book do not show an external ballast
resistor. I have following the wires from the coil and I cannot locate one
either.

The original coil (which I replaced) says the only use it with an external
resistor. I made sure the new coil was for use with an external resistor.

Any clues as to where the resisitor would be?

Would a faulty resistor allow it to crank, but show no spark?

Note that I checked for spark at the points, by pulling the coil wire and
holding it near a ground, and by putting a spare spark plug into a plug
wire.

Trust me... there is no spark.

Ok let me ask you this... Key on do you see 12v on the positive (+)
terminal of the coil with the key on?

If NO
then hooking up a wire with gator clips from the positive (+) battery
terminal to the positive (+) side of the coil. See if it will start if so
pull the clip off if it dies then you have a problem with the external
resistor. In this case just ignore it, go get a internal resistor coil and
run a wire directly from the ignition switch to the coil. Don't use the
external resistor coil on 12 volts it will overheat. You can in the future
use this new 12volt wire to run the electronic pickup that you will
eventually install in place of the points...... I suspect this is not your
problem as it will not start even when the starter is running.

If YES
there is power to coil with key on then I would unhook everything from
the negative (-) terminal of the coil except for the points (should be a
single wire running from points/condenser to coil). See if it starts and
runs. If so tach is dead or short in shift interrupt system. The way the
coil works is such... the coil charges when positive power is on and the
coil is grounding though the points. When the lobe in the distributor gets
to the proper position it opens the points breaking the ground to the coil
and the power stops flowing in the secondary circuit in the coil. When this
happens it creates a magnetic pulse in the coil that is picked up by the
primary circuit and is send out of the coil as a high voltage "jolt" that is
then sent to the plugs. If the ground circuit is always grounded no spark
or if the circuit does not close (no ground) no spark. I bet this is where
your problem is in the system.

During cranking the starting system will feed a full 12volts to the coil
then when the starter is off it feeds ~10volts to the coil through the
resistor circuit (voltage will depend on the resistor but should be between
7-10volts).

From what I have read in your posts I bet you have a ground issue.

I went though something similar last year with my OMC.

Let us know how you make out.

good luck,
mark

Thanks r_d,

I will follow your directions tomorrow night and report back.

-Tim



"r_d" wrote in message
. com...

"TSC" wrote in message
...
I have the Siloc book. I went through the troubleshooting, and I have no
spark anywhere.

Curiously, the wiring diagrams in the book do not show an external
ballast resistor. I have following the wires from the coil and I cannot
locate one either.

The original coil (which I replaced) says the only use it with an
external resistor. I made sure the new coil was for use with an external
resistor.

Any clues as to where the resisitor would be?

Would a faulty resistor allow it to crank, but show no spark?

Note that I checked for spark at the points, by pulling the coil wire and
holding it near a ground, and by putting a spare spark plug into a plug
wire.

Trust me... there is no spark.

Ok let me ask you this... Key on do you see 12v on the positive (+)
terminal of the coil with the key on?

If NO
then hooking up a wire with gator clips from the positive (+) battery
terminal to the positive (+) side of the coil. See if it will start if so
pull the clip off if it dies then you have a problem with the external
resistor. In this case just ignore it, go get a internal resistor coil
and run a wire directly from the ignition switch to the coil. Don't use
the external resistor coil on 12 volts it will overheat. You can in the
future use this new 12volt wire to run the electronic pickup that you will
eventually install in place of the points...... I suspect this is not
your problem as it will not start even when the starter is running.

If YES
there is power to coil with key on then I would unhook everything from
the negative (-) terminal of the coil except for the points (should be a
single wire running from points/condenser to coil). See if it starts and
runs. If so tach is dead or short in shift interrupt system. The way the
coil works is such... the coil charges when positive power is on and the
coil is grounding though the points. When the lobe in the distributor
gets to the proper position it opens the points breaking the ground to the
coil and the power stops flowing in the secondary circuit in the coil.
When this happens it creates a magnetic pulse in the coil that is picked
up by the primary circuit and is send out of the coil as a high voltage
"jolt" that is then sent to the plugs. If the ground circuit is always
grounded no spark or if the circuit does not close (no ground) no spark.
I bet this is where your problem is in the system.

During cranking the starting system will feed a full 12volts to the coil
then when the starter is off it feeds ~10volts to the coil through the
resistor circuit (voltage will depend on the resistor but should be
between 7-10volts).

From what I have read in your posts I bet you have a ground issue.

I went though something similar last year with my OMC.

Let us know how you make out.

good luck,
mark

I do NOT see 12 volts on the positive side of the coil with the key on. This
is using a volt meter. I tested the volt meter at the battery and got the
full 12 volts. Testing at the coil gives me nothing.

Hooking up a wire with gator clips to the positive side of the battery to
the positive side of the coil produces no change. Keeps turning over nice
and strong, but no firing whatsoever.

By the way, I *did* remove the tach wire while conducting all tests.

I changed back to my original coil and performed the tests again. No change.

I am going to have to wait for daylight to continue this saga.








Ok let me ask you this... Key on do you see 12v on the positive (+)
terminal of the coil with the key on?

If NO
then hooking up a wire with gator clips from the positive (+) battery
terminal to the positive (+) side of the coil. See if it will start if so
pull the clip off if it dies then you have a problem with the external
resistor. In this case just ignore it, go get a internal resistor coil
and run a wire directly from the ignition switch to the coil. Don't use
the external resistor coil on 12 volts it will overheat. You can in the
future use this new 12volt wire to run the electronic pickup that you will
eventually install in place of the points...... I suspect this is not
your problem as it will not start even when the starter is running.

If YES
there is power to coil with key on then I would unhook everything from
the negative (-) terminal of the coil except for the points (should be a
single wire running from points/condenser to coil). See if it starts and
runs. If so tach is dead or short in shift interrupt system. The way the
coil works is such... the coil charges when positive power is on and the
coil is grounding though the points. When the lobe in the distributor
gets to the proper position it opens the points breaking the ground to the
coil and the power stops flowing in the secondary circuit in the coil.
When this happens it creates a magnetic pulse in the coil that is picked
up by the primary circuit and is send out of the coil as a high voltage
"jolt" that is then sent to the plugs. If the ground circuit is always
grounded no spark or if the circuit does not close (no ground) no spark.
I bet this is where your problem is in the system.

During cranking the starting system will feed a full 12volts to the coil
then when the starter is off it feeds ~10volts to the coil through the
resistor circuit (voltage will depend on the resistor but should be
between 7-10volts).

From what I have read in your posts I bet you have a ground issue.

I went though something similar last year with my OMC.

Let us know how you make out.

good luck,
mark

TSC wrote:
I do NOT see 12 volts on the positive side of the coil with the key on. This
is using a volt meter.

Digital or analog?

I tested the volt meter at the battery and got the
full 12 volts. Testing at the coil gives me nothing.

The coil (+) and... What did you use for a ground(-)?

Hooking up a wire with gator clips to the positive side of the battery to
the positive side of the coil produces no change.

Do you mean that you still do not have 12 volts at the coil to ground?
What are you using for a ground on this test? There always has to be a
reference to ground or we cannot help you figure this out.

Keeps turning over nice
and strong, but no firing whatsoever.

You will get no spark ever if you don't get this 12 volts at the coil to
ground cranking first, and have the points set to open to the specified
gap twice every engine revolution.

How did you set the points gap?


By the way, I *did* remove the tach wire while conducting all tests.

You removed it from what? It should be one of two connections at the
(-) post on the coil. It won't make a lick of difference, though, if
you still do not have 12 volts at the coil(+) to ground(not coil"-")
while cranking.


I changed back to my original coil and performed the tests again. No change.

It won't make any difference which coil you use to get the 12 volts coil
(+) to ground.

I am going to have to wait for daylight to continue this saga.

Let us know!


Rob

Digital or analog?
I used a brand new Craftsman digital. Not the top of the line but not the
cheapie either. It was around $45 on clearance.




I tested the volt meter at the battery and got the full 12 volts. Testing
at the coil gives me nothing.

The coil (+) and... What did you use for a ground(-)?

I tried three spots for the negative lead. The negative battery terminal as
well as the engine block (scraped clean) and the negative coil terminal. And
I did ensure that the key was on at the time of the test.


I realize that my naivete is going to show here, but the boat is on the
trailer, and is NOT connected to the truck. I should still have a sufficient
ground though... no?










Hooking up a wire with gator clips to the positive side of the battery to
the positive side of the coil produces no change.

Do you mean that you still do not have 12 volts at the coil to ground?
What are you using for a ground on this test? There always has to be a
reference to ground or we cannot help you figure this out.

Keeps turning over nice
and strong, but no firing whatsoever.

You will get no spark ever if you don't get this 12 volts at the coil to
ground cranking first, and have the points set to open to the specified
gap twice every engine revolution.

How did you set the points gap?


By the way, I *did* remove the tach wire while conducting all tests.

You removed it from what? It should be one of two connections at the (-)
post on the coil. It won't make a lick of difference, though, if you
still do not have 12 volts at the coil(+) to ground(not coil"-") while
cranking.


I changed back to my original coil and performed the tests again. No
change.

It won't make any difference which coil you use to get the 12 volts coil
(+) to ground.

I am going to have to wait for daylight to continue this saga.

Let us know!


Rob

I realize that my naiveté is going to show here, but the boat is on the
trailer, and is NOT connected to the truck. I should still have a
sufficient ground though... no?



The battery you are using to crank and start the boat is in the boat right?
If so then it does not matter where the boat is as it is a complete circuit.
If you can crank it then you do have power to the system.



The voltmeter is just fine. I actually use a $4 digital meter from Harbor
Freight when I work on something. Actually, have one in each car and boat
in case of break down.



You have two primary problems.



1. No power to the coil



2. No start once you plugged the coil into the battery.



First-- With the distributor cap off crank the engine a revolution or two.
Does the rotor turn? Is there a rotor installed under the cap (yes I have
done this.)?



1. You are going to have to trace the wires from the positive side of the
coil back to where they go. I suspect one leg will go to the alternator and
one to the starter solenoid. But you need to find where each of these leads
go. Once you figure out where they go with key on test each beginning point
to see if you have 12v being supplied to the wire lead. Find a good spot on
the block and use this for all of your power tests. Be sure to also test it
to the positive side of the battery to make sure it is a good ground. The
idea of tracing the wires from the coil to their point of origin is to make
sure there are no fuses or circuit breakers that are in the system that have
blown or corroded connections that are blocking power. If you do find that
you do not have 12 volt in one of those supply locations then that will have
to be explored. Be advised that you may not have 12v coming from the
alternator as this may be powered only when the alt is actually turning but
you should be seeing 12v on the start circuit. When you have it running you
will have to replace all of the electrical tape that you will remove.



2. Remove the points negative (ground) wire from the coil. With the points
sitting on a flat lobe of the cam (points closed) put your meter into ohms
and test the resistance from the points wire (removed from the coil) to the
plate the points are sitting on (the points ground the coil to the base
plate in the distributor. You are tying to see if the points are really
supplying a ground, what resistance do you get? With this setup in place
have someone crank the engine you should now see the reading on the meter
flip as the circuit closes and opens (both of these can be done with a test
light if you have one). Next test the resistance from the plate that holds
the points to a good place on the engine block, should see a reading of
zero. Next test from the engine block to the negative side of the battery,
should see a reading of zero. If you see a see a reading of 1 on the meter,
this means the circuit is open.



Check the resistance of your coil ignition wire (wire from coil to cap
center) what do you get (your are trying to see if the wire is bad)?



Unfortunately, at this point you are on your own. Just make sure you are
seeing a real ground through the points and try to determine where in the
system the power to the coil has stopped. I really do not know what to tell
you. Hooking the coil directly to the battery should have worked. Because
it did not tells you, you have a problem with the points. They are not
pulsing the coil. And no power to the coil key on tells you there is a
power problem.



I would not get discouraged. Just systematically work you way though the
system. With the closed circuit you will see a reading of zero or close to
zero in ohms. If you see a reading of 1 then the circuit is open.



good luck,

mark

Agreed that there appear to be at least 2 problems. The first issue I would
tackle is: The same wire that pulls in the starter slave solenoid enables
12V to the coil thru contacts in the slave solenoid. I am very suspicious
that you can crank the engine but don't have 12V on the coil during
cranking. The only way I can account for that is if someone replaced the
solenoid with the wrong type or if the solenoid itself is bad.
Jim

"r_d" wrote in message
. com...

I realize that my naiveté is going to show here, but the boat is on the
trailer, and is NOT connected to the truck. I should still have a
sufficient ground though... no?



The battery you are using to crank and start the boat is in the boat
right? If so then it does not matter where the boat is as it is a complete
circuit. If you can crank it then you do have power to the system.



The voltmeter is just fine. I actually use a $4 digital meter from Harbor
Freight when I work on something. Actually, have one in each car and boat
in case of break down.



You have two primary problems.



1. No power to the coil



2. No start once you plugged the coil into the battery.



First-- With the distributor cap off crank the engine a revolution or
two. Does the rotor turn? Is there a rotor installed under the cap (yes I
have done this.)?



1. You are going to have to trace the wires from the positive side of the
coil back to where they go. I suspect one leg will go to the alternator
and one to the starter solenoid. But you need to find where each of these
leads go. Once you figure out where they go with key on test each
beginning point to see if you have 12v being supplied to the wire lead.
Find a good spot on the block and use this for all of your power tests.
Be sure to also test it to the positive side of the battery to make sure
it is a good ground. The idea of tracing the wires from the coil to their
point of origin is to make sure there are no fuses or circuit breakers
that are in the system that have blown or corroded connections that are
blocking power. If you do find that you do not have 12 volt in one of
those supply locations then that will have to be explored. Be advised
that you may not have 12v coming from the alternator as this may be
powered only when the alt is actually turning but you should be seeing 12v
on the start circuit. When you have it running you will have to replace
all of the electrical tape that you will remove.



2. Remove the points negative (ground) wire from the coil. With the
points sitting on a flat lobe of the cam (points closed) put your meter
into ohms and test the resistance from the points wire (removed from the
coil) to the plate the points are sitting on (the points ground the coil
to the base plate in the distributor. You are tying to see if the points
are really supplying a ground, what resistance do you get? With this
setup in place have someone crank the engine you should now see the
reading on the meter flip as the circuit closes and opens (both of these
can be done with a test light if you have one). Next test the resistance
from the plate that holds the points to a good place on the engine block,
should see a reading of zero. Next test from the engine block to the
negative side of the battery, should see a reading of zero. If you see a
see a reading of 1 on the meter, this means the circuit is open.



Check the resistance of your coil ignition wire (wire from coil to cap
center) what do you get (your are trying to see if the wire is bad)?



Unfortunately, at this point you are on your own. Just make sure you are
seeing a real ground through the points and try to determine where in the
system the power to the coil has stopped. I really do not know what to
tell you. Hooking the coil directly to the battery should have worked.
Because it did not tells you, you have a problem with the points. They
are not pulsing the coil. And no power to the coil key on tells you there
is a power problem.



I would not get discouraged. Just systematically work you way though the
system. With the closed circuit you will see a reading of zero or close
to zero in ohms. If you see a reading of 1 then the circuit is open.



good luck,

mark

OK Guys, I gave up.

I had a neighbor come take a look with a fresh set of eyes. He confirmed
that my thought process was sound, and things were set up correctly.

I brought the boat to the repair shop. We will see what they say next week.






"Jim" wrote in message
nk.net...
Agreed that there appear to be at least 2 problems. The first issue I
would tackle is: The same wire that pulls in the starter slave solenoid
enables 12V to the coil thru contacts in the slave solenoid. I am very
suspicious that you can crank the engine but don't have 12V on the coil
during cranking. The only way I can account for that is if someone
replaced the solenoid with the wrong type or if the solenoid itself is
bad.
Jim

"r_d" wrote in message
. com...

I realize that my naiveté is going to show here, but the boat is on the
trailer, and is NOT connected to the truck. I should still have a
sufficient ground though... no?



The battery you are using to crank and start the boat is in the boat
right? If so then it does not matter where the boat is as it is a
complete circuit. If you can crank it then you do have power to the
system.



The voltmeter is just fine. I actually use a $4 digital meter from
Harbor Freight when I work on something. Actually, have one in each car
and boat in case of break down.



You have two primary problems.



1. No power to the coil



2. No start once you plugged the coil into the battery.



First-- With the distributor cap off crank the engine a revolution or
two. Does the rotor turn? Is there a rotor installed under the cap (yes
I have done this.)?



1. You are going to have to trace the wires from the positive side of
the coil back to where they go. I suspect one leg will go to the
alternator and one to the starter solenoid. But you need to find where
each of these leads go. Once you figure out where they go with key on
test each beginning point to see if you have 12v being supplied to the
wire lead. Find a good spot on the block and use this for all of your
power tests. Be sure to also test it to the positive side of the battery
to make sure it is a good ground. The idea of tracing the wires from the
coil to their point of origin is to make sure there are no fuses or
circuit breakers that are in the system that have blown or corroded
connections that are blocking power. If you do find that you do not have
12 volt in one of those supply locations then that will have to be
explored. Be advised that you may not have 12v coming from the
alternator as this may be powered only when the alt is actually turning
but you should be seeing 12v on the start circuit. When you have it
running you will have to replace all of the electrical tape that you will
remove.



2. Remove the points negative (ground) wire from the coil. With the
points sitting on a flat lobe of the cam (points closed) put your meter
into ohms and test the resistance from the points wire (removed from the
coil) to the plate the points are sitting on (the points ground the coil
to the base plate in the distributor. You are tying to see if the points
are really supplying a ground, what resistance do you get? With this
setup in place have someone crank the engine you should now see the
reading on the meter flip as the circuit closes and opens (both of these
can be done with a test light if you have one). Next test the resistance
from the plate that holds the points to a good place on the engine block,
should see a reading of zero. Next test from the engine block to the
negative side of the battery, should see a reading of zero. If you see a
see a reading of 1 on the meter, this means the circuit is open.



Check the resistance of your coil ignition wire (wire from coil to cap
center) what do you get (your are trying to see if the wire is bad)?



Unfortunately, at this point you are on your own. Just make sure you are
seeing a real ground through the points and try to determine where in the
system the power to the coil has stopped. I really do not know what to
tell you. Hooking the coil directly to the battery should have worked.
Because it did not tells you, you have a problem with the points. They
are not pulsing the coil. And no power to the coil key on tells you
there is a power problem.



I would not get discouraged. Just systematically work you way though the
system. With the closed circuit you will see a reading of zero or close
to zero in ohms. If you see a reading of 1 then the circuit is open.



good luck,

mark