OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Trains already work very nicely for New York and Boston, not to mention
virtually ALL of Europe.



Most of Europe is very densely populated relative to the land mass. Not a
lot of suburbs as we think of them. So you can run trains between the
major
population centers and mass transit in the city then works. Paris is also
cheap to travel around in their subway. A Carnet (10 tickets is about $8)
Each ticket is good for any place in the central area of paris. Change
trains just like the NY subway and as long as you do not leave the
station,
you get to travel for 1 ticket. Out local mass transit, BART, costs a
minimum of $1.50 for one station and to go about 30 miles is $5.10. Way
to
expensive, and the connecting busses take for ever to get point A to B.
Bill



We do things backwards.

Fact: When we widen or build new highways from major urban centers, we make
sprawl worse. So, we end up with cities like NY & Boston which are
surrounded by dense suburbs. In many cases, the population hasn't grown,
either. It's just relocated.

For good reason. Many people do not like living in cities.


In places like this, trains are ideal.

And for the rest?



Cost is subjective, I guess.

Bingo!


It certainly makes no sense to NOT build light
rail systems if only SOME people think it's expensive. Lots of people in big
cities feel no need to own a car.

It costs me about $12 a week to put gas in my car and drive it to work.
Factor in other costs like insurance and maintenance, and it's still
less than $20 a week. When you have to pay $10 a day ($50 per week) for
train fare, how is that anything but more expensive? What would be my
incentive to ride the train then (Assuming they would actually build one
out to where I live)?

Dave

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net...


Do not know if it still true. Used to be 50% of the population of the USA
lived within 500 miles of Cleavland, OH. Includes Boston / NYC. Very
good
to have mass transit in this situation. Problem with most new Mass
transit,
is the Politics and Union required laws. Bart ends in my town. Livermore,
Calif is 7 miles away, and has also been paying BART taxes since 1957. To
run BART the extra 7 miles is projected to run $900 million to $1.5
billion!
It is an above ground light rail. No tunnels required. Where do these
costs come from? Even figuring in another train does not add up. Also,
if
the job could be done wrong BART did it. Non-standard guage railways.
Wrong frequency and voltage for signaling the train as they did not want
to
pay the railroads for the right to use there system. So we spent anothor
100 million or so and still lost trains. A high tech fare system that
costs more to monitor than the extra money a simple ticket or token for
anywhere in the system ala Paris / London / NYC costs.
Bill



Well...I guess if something's done incorrectly, nobody should ever try it
again anyplace else. You're right.

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Trains already work very nicely for New York and Boston, not to
mention
virtually ALL of Europe.



Most of Europe is very densely populated relative to the land mass.
Not
a
lot of suburbs as we think of them. So you can run trains between
the
major
population centers and mass transit in the city then works. Paris is
also
cheap to travel around in their subway. A Carnet (10 tickets is
about
$8)
Each ticket is good for any place in the central area of paris.
Change
trains just like the NY subway and as long as you do not leave the
station,
you get to travel for 1 ticket. Out local mass transit, BART, costs
a
minimum of $1.50 for one station and to go about 30 miles is $5.10.
Way
to
expensive, and the connecting busses take for ever to get point A to
B.
Bill



We do things backwards.

Fact: When we widen or build new highways from major urban centers, we
make
sprawl worse. So, we end up with cities like NY & Boston which are
surrounded by dense suburbs. In many cases, the population hasn't
grown,
either. It's just relocated. In places like this, trains are ideal.

Cost is subjective, I guess. It certainly makes no sense to NOT build
light
rail systems if only SOME people think it's expensive. Lots of people
in
big
cities feel no need to own a car.



Do not know if it still true. Used to be 50% of the population of the
USA
lived within 500 miles of Cleavland, OH. Includes Boston / NYC. Very
good
to have mass transit in this situation. Problem with most new Mass
transit,
is the Politics and Union required laws. Bart ends in my town.
Livermore,
Calif is 7 miles away, and has also been paying BART taxes since 1957.
To
run BART the extra 7 miles is projected to run $900 million to $1.5
billion!
It is an above ground light rail. No tunnels required. Where do these
costs come from? Even figuring in another train does not add up. Also,
if
the job could be done wrong BART did it. Non-standard guage railways.
Wrong frequency and voltage for signaling the train as they did not want
to
pay the railroads for the right to use there system. So we spent
anothor
100 million or so and still lost trains. A high tech fare system that
costs more to monitor than the extra money a simple ticket or token for
anywhere in the system ala Paris / London / NYC costs.
Bill




Ahh, yes...those pesky union contracts that call for decent wages, hours
and working conditions.

How is it that foreign auto manufacturers that have set up non-union plants
over give their employees decent wages, hours, and working
conditions...without the pressure from some pesky union?

Unions are a dying breed, and it won't be long before the AFL-CIO, UAW, etc.
are just anacronyms.

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Trains already work very nicely for New York and Boston, not to
mention
virtually ALL of Europe.



Most of Europe is very densely populated relative to the land
mass.
Not
a
lot of suburbs as we think of them. So you can run trains between
the
major
population centers and mass transit in the city then works. Paris
is
also
cheap to travel around in their subway. A Carnet (10 tickets is
about
$8)
Each ticket is good for any place in the central area of paris.
Change
trains just like the NY subway and as long as you do not leave the
station,
you get to travel for 1 ticket. Out local mass transit, BART,
costs
a
minimum of $1.50 for one station and to go about 30 miles is
$5.10.
Way
to
expensive, and the connecting busses take for ever to get point A
to
B.
Bill



We do things backwards.

Fact: When we widen or build new highways from major urban centers,
we
make
sprawl worse. So, we end up with cities like NY & Boston which are
surrounded by dense suburbs. In many cases, the population hasn't
grown,
either. It's just relocated. In places like this, trains are ideal.

Cost is subjective, I guess. It certainly makes no sense to NOT
build
light
rail systems if only SOME people think it's expensive. Lots of
people
in
big
cities feel no need to own a car.



Do not know if it still true. Used to be 50% of the population of
the
USA
lived within 500 miles of Cleavland, OH. Includes Boston / NYC.
Very
good
to have mass transit in this situation. Problem with most new Mass
transit,
is the Politics and Union required laws. Bart ends in my town.
Livermore,
Calif is 7 miles away, and has also been paying BART taxes since
1957.
To
run BART the extra 7 miles is projected to run $900 million to $1.5
billion!
It is an above ground light rail. No tunnels required. Where do
these
costs come from? Even figuring in another train does not add up.
Also,
if
the job could be done wrong BART did it. Non-standard guage
railways.
Wrong frequency and voltage for signaling the train as they did not
want
to
pay the railroads for the right to use there system. So we spent
anothor
100 million or so and still lost trains. A high tech fare system
that
costs more to monitor than the extra money a simple ticket or token
for
anywhere in the system ala Paris / London / NYC costs.
Bill




Ahh, yes...those pesky union contracts that call for decent wages,
hours
and working conditions. Perhaps, Bill, you could hire a labor
contractor
from India who would hire some daytrippers to run your trains.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.


In this state, the present governor and his legislature have sold out to
the
unions. Make rules that raise the price of construction on public
contracts
sky high. Pay levels higher than 95% of jobs requiring a college
education.
Bill



Well, many construction jobs do require skill, Bill.


Yeah, like knowing which end of the "Slow" sign they're holding is up.

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...


We do things backwards.

Fact: When we widen or build new highways from major urban centers, we
make
sprawl worse. So, we end up with cities like NY & Boston which are
surrounded by dense suburbs. In many cases, the population hasn't grown,
either. It's just relocated.

For good reason. Many people do not like living in cities.


In places like this, trains are ideal.

And for the rest?

The rest should be forced to have trains and use them. Left wing storm
troopers, trained by the Sierra Club, will hunt down violaters and make them
live in ponds with endangered frogs.


It certainly makes no sense to NOT build light
rail systems if only SOME people think it's expensive. Lots of people in
big
cities feel no need to own a car.

It costs me about $12 a week to put gas in my car and drive it to work.
Factor in other costs like insurance and maintenance, and it's still
less than $20 a week. When you have to pay $10 a day ($50 per week) for
train fare, how is that anything but more expensive? What would be my
incentive to ride the train then (Assuming they would actually build one
out to where I live)?

Dave


Gee. I guess the geographical arrangement of your neck of the woods makes
mass transport impractical. Logically, that means it's impractical and
pointless everywhere, even in places where is works like a charm right now,
or in places where the citizenry is asking for it, but their elected
officials aren't responding.

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

snip

In this state, the present governor and his legislature have sold out to
the
unions. Make rules that raise the price of construction on public
contracts
sky high. Pay levels higher than 95% of jobs requiring a college
education.
Bill


I think your value system may need a tune-up.

College degree -verses- Technical and union jobs: most of the trades require
technical school and apprenticeship. If you look at schooling and lost
opportunity costs the pay should be about the same. Unlike the college
degree, the trades are able to do something useful right out of school.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks that claim - "I have a college
degree but the only job I can get is flipping burgers." Many college degrees
are useless; the trades should get more. Most employers really could care
less if a potential candidate has written a masters thesis on "the
contributions of Mary Shelly" to the transition of modern literature - or
some similar earthshaking accomplishment. They want someone who has the
right attitude and a good grasp of the basics of whatever it is they are
doing.

If you are envious of the wages made by construction workers, go get a job
in the field - If you think it is just cushy high paid jobs like holding
slow/stop signs, go for it! I have worked around construction workers on
and off for the last twenty years. It is my opinion that the earn their
wages.

Mark Browne

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...


We do things backwards.

Fact: When we widen or build new highways from major urban centers, we
make
sprawl worse. So, we end up with cities like NY & Boston which are
surrounded by dense suburbs. In many cases, the population hasn't grown,
either. It's just relocated.

For good reason. Many people do not like living in cities.


In places like this, trains are ideal.

And for the rest?

The rest should be forced to have trains and use them. Left wing storm
troopers, trained by the Sierra Club, will hunt down violaters and make them
live in ponds with endangered frogs.

You may have stated that tongue in cheek, but there are those radical
enviro-wacko's who would favor such mandatory compliance, regardless of
the economic pitfalls and lyfestyle sacrifices it would push on people.


It certainly makes no sense to NOT build light
rail systems if only SOME people think it's expensive. Lots of people in
big
cities feel no need to own a car.

It costs me about $12 a week to put gas in my car and drive it to work.
Factor in other costs like insurance and maintenance, and it's still
less than $20 a week. When you have to pay $10 a day ($50 per week) for
train fare, how is that anything but more expensive? What would be my
incentive to ride the train then (Assuming they would actually build one
out to where I live)?


Gee. I guess the geographical arrangement of your neck of the woods makes
mass transport impractical. Logically, that means it's impractical and
pointless everywhere, even in places where is works like a charm right now,
or in places where the citizenry is asking for it, but their elected
officials aren't responding.

You are attempting to isolate my situation as a rare exception, when in
fact it is a very popular situation. Unless you live in a city, or a
dense suburban area, it is impractical and cost ineffective to provide
rail service. Say what you will about suburban sprawl, it is a fact of
life for many Americans.

Another one of my "hobbies" is interurban traction service (trolleys)
back in the early 1900's through the end of WW2 and into the 50's and
60's. At that time, it was a very practical and efficient method of
transportation. Roads back then were sparse and often not very well
constructed. People lived and commuted between major population centers,
which was ideal for rail service. Once the end of WW2 came about, roads
had improved, people had embraced the individuality of the automobile,
and corporate exces at companies like GM started pushing busses onto
metro areas at discount prices, in order to compete with rail service.
These factors, combined with sprawl, put the nails in the coffin of the
interurban rail service. The economic climate has not changed, so it is
still not a favorable climate for the rennaisance of interurban rail
service, except for established urban areas. Most of the old interurban
rail right-of-ways have been converted into bike paths in my area.

Dave

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

Mark Browne wrote:

snip

In this state, the present governor and his legislature have sold out to
the
unions. Make rules that raise the price of construction on public
contracts
sky high. Pay levels higher than 95% of jobs requiring a college
education.
Bill


I think your value system may need a tune-up.

College degree -verses- Technical and union jobs: most of the trades require
technical school and apprenticeship. If you look at schooling and lost
opportunity costs the pay should be about the same. Unlike the college
degree, the trades are able to do something useful right out of school.

There is a big difference between a highly skilled tradesman, and an
unskilled laborer. In a free market economy, your wages should be in
proportion to your demand in society. Skilled tradesmen are in high
demand, therfore they should be paid accordingly.

Where the unions are a problem is when they elevate the wages of un- or
underskilled laborers on the coattails of the skilled tradesmen. While a
heavy equipment operator, for example, should be paid well for his job,
the guy waving the flags, is a dime a dozen commodity, and should not
be.



I don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks that claim - "I have a college
degree but the only job I can get is flipping burgers." Many college degrees
are useless;

Like liberal arts.


the trades should get more. Most employers really could care
less if a potential candidate has written a masters thesis on "the
contributions of Mary Shelly" to the transition of modern literature - or
some similar earthshaking accomplishment. They want someone who has the
right attitude and a good grasp of the basics of whatever it is they are
doing.

They want the skills to do the job. How they got them should be
irrelevant.

Dave

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

Dave Hall wrote:


There is a big difference between a highly skilled tradesman, and an
unskilled laborer. In a free market economy, your wages should be in
proportion to your demand in society. Skilled tradesmen are in high
demand, therfore they should be paid accordingly.

Well, Dave, you should be a fan of the unionized construction industry,
because it is a true representative of a free market economy. At
contract negotiations time, representatives of both sides sit down and
work out a deal for wages, hours, welfare and working conditions. While
strikes and lockouts occur, they are rare in the construction industry.
The more skilled trades have hourly rates that are substantially higher
than those in the less-skilled trades.


Where the unions are a problem is when they elevate the wages of un- or
underskilled laborers on the coattails of the skilled tradesmen. While a
heavy equipment operator, for example, should be paid well for his job,
the guy waving the flags, is a dime a dozen commodity, and should not
be.


A unionized heavy equipment operator typically is a member of the
Operating Engineers union. A flagman typically is a member of the
Laborers union. The unions do not negotiate together, and the flagman's
package is not a percentage of the engineer's package. Further, that
laborer may only be the flagman for a couple of days -after all, someone
has to be the flagman- and then go back to far more strenuous work.

The Laborers union, by the way, is running a substantial number of
training schools for its members, and many of its skills have been
recognized as ones that can be taught through a typical union
apprenticeship program. Most pollution abatement work, for example, is
performed by unionized laborers who receive many months of specialized
training before they don their gear to remove asbestos, hazardous waste,
and suchlike.

Tell me, Dave, a man who goes into an old building and removes
asbestos...what do you think he should be paid an hour? More than you
make, one hopes, eh? I mean, what are you? A software pussy?



I don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks that claim - "I have a college
degree but the only job I can get is flipping burgers." Many college degrees
are useless;

Like liberal arts.

A "liberal arts" degree provides you with the courses you need to
understand the world and to think in the abstract. You, obviously, could
have gained some benefit from liberal arts courses, since you are,
without question, the leading "Stepford Conservative" in this newsgroup.

Yes, a bit of time immersed in the trivium and the quadrivium might have
helped you. You might have learned something about grammar, rhetoric,
logic, math, geometry, music and even astronomy. But then, of course,
you'd have a liberal arts degree.

You're really a horse's ass, Dave, and incapable of independent and
original thought.



the trades should get more. Most employers really could care
less if a potential candidate has written a masters thesis on "the
contributions of Mary Shelly" to the transition of modern literature - or
some similar earthshaking accomplishment.

Really? I'm in the preliminary stages of hiring another writer. I'd
enjoy reading a candidate's paper on Mary Shelley and her impact on
modern literature, even though the kind of writing I need done isn't
"literary." But, then, I have two liberal arts degrees. Oh...the
chairman and CEO of one of my major clients, a $7 billion company...he
has a liberal arts degree, too. And a main contact of mine at another
client's headquarters, why, gosharoonie, he was a don at Oxford, and
tutored in Irish lit. I got the account after meeting the fellow at a
social gathering and engaging in a spirited discussion about Brendan Behan.

Here's a great Behan quote that has some relevance for the thug who is
our current attorney general:

"When I came back to Dublin I found I was courtmartialled in my absence
and sentenced to death in my absence, so I said they could shoot me in
my absence."





--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...


I don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks that claim - "I have a
college
degree but the only job I can get is flipping burgers." Many college
degrees
are useless;

Like liberal arts.


Why's that, Dave? Because the phrase contains the word "liberal"?

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


Tell me, Dave, a man who goes into an old building and removes
asbestos...what do you think he should be paid an hour? More than you
make, one hopes, eh? I mean, what are you? A software pussy?


Cripes, Harry. Don't you pay attention? :-)

1) The guy should be paid like a janitor because asbestos is not dangerous.
It is portrayed as dangerous by liberals who don't appreciate the blessings
we've received from big corporations.

2) Dave is "in telecommunications" somehow. My guess: When you sign up for a
new phone toy like caller ID, he's the guy who's supposed to "program" it
for your phone number, assuming he's not busy on his CWA-designated coffee
break. You know...CWA...like the unions he doesn't like.

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...


I don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks that claim - "I have a
college
degree but the only job I can get is flipping burgers." Many college
degrees
are useless;

Like liberal arts.


Why's that, Dave? Because the phrase contains the word "liberal"?




Stephen Hawking is the product of a liberal arts education, with
collegiate studies in math, physics, natural science and cosmology.

Dalai Lama Tenzin Gyatso, one of my personal heroes, holds the Tibetan
academic degree of Geshe Lharampa, roughly equivalent in Western terms
to a Ph.D. in Buddhist metaphysics. He's a liberal arts graduate.

From a website about liberal arts education:

"A liberal arts education is not designed as training for a specific
occupation. What it does do better than any other type of college or
university preparation is sharpen analytical and communication skills,
teach students how to learn, and provide students with a body of
knowledge that can be applied to larger contexts. Thus, it is no
surprise that the leaders in most career fields are liberal arts
graduates whose specialized training occurred in graduate or
professional school."


Our man Dave obviously had a ****-poor education.





--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


Tell me, Dave, a man who goes into an old building and removes
asbestos...what do you think he should be paid an hour? More than you
make, one hopes, eh? I mean, what are you? A software pussy?


Cripes, Harry. Don't you pay attention? :-)

1) The guy should be paid like a janitor because asbestos is not dangerous.
It is portrayed as dangerous by liberals who don't appreciate the blessings
we've received from big corporations.

2) Dave is "in telecommunications" somehow. My guess: When you sign up for a
new phone toy like caller ID, he's the guy who's supposed to "program" it
for your phone number, assuming he's not busy on his CWA-designated coffee
break. You know...CWA...like the unions he doesn't like.




Dave is incredibly representive of the plague of Stepford Conservatives
who are destroying our society. He's badly educated, he doesn't really
read, he doesn't think for himself, and he accepts virtually everything
his Republican leaders tell him is true.

You know, it's kind of funny. I thought Clinton was a flaming ass for
doing what he did to himself with his extracurricular sex life, and I
said so many times. But I never felt nervous about the country or its
future with him in charge. Now we have an absolute idiot in the White
House, perhaps the most dangerous man who has ever been there, a man who
doesn't read and doesn't understand, and who has the intellectual
curiosity of snail, and he's pooched about everything he has touched
and...he's placed us in harm's way in a big way...and all the
Conservatives can do is try to convince us he's a great leader.

Are they that blind? Are they even dumber than I think they are? Or are
they so ashamed of Bush they are overcompensating?

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


Are they that blind? Are they even dumber than I think they are? Or are
they so ashamed of Bush they are overcompensating?


It's a common human foible to defend your decisions, even if they're hideous
ones. Used to see it all the time with customers when I was in the audio
business, and later in the investment business, especially with males.

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

He suggested San Leandro Color. They even put it in a spray can for you.
Bill

"Joe Parsons" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 01:01:50 GMT, "Calif Bill"

wrote:


"Joe Parsons" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:50:12 GMT, "Calif Bill"

wrote:

[snip]

Bart ends in my town. Livermore,
Calif is 7 miles away, and has also been paying BART taxes since 1957.

We should be nicer to each other, Bill, seeing as how we're neighbors!
:)

Joe Parsons
Dublin, CA


And we share a BART station. Was in Dublin today at Finish Masters
looking
for touchup paint for the boat.
Bill

Pick some up for me, wouldja? Four Winns, maroon.

Joe Parsons

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net...


Do not know if it still true. Used to be 50% of the population of the
USA
lived within 500 miles of Cleavland, OH. Includes Boston / NYC. Very
good
to have mass transit in this situation. Problem with most new Mass
transit,
is the Politics and Union required laws. Bart ends in my town.
Livermore,
Calif is 7 miles away, and has also been paying BART taxes since 1957.
To
run BART the extra 7 miles is projected to run $900 million to $1.5
billion!
It is an above ground light rail. No tunnels required. Where do these
costs come from? Even figuring in another train does not add up. Also,
if
the job could be done wrong BART did it. Non-standard guage railways.
Wrong frequency and voltage for signaling the train as they did not want
to
pay the railroads for the right to use there system. So we spent
anothor
100 million or so and still lost trains. A high tech fare system that
costs more to monitor than the extra money a simple ticket or token for
anywhere in the system ala Paris / London / NYC costs.
Bill



Well...I guess if something's done incorrectly, nobody should ever try it
again anyplace else. You're right.



Nope, just do not build over priced edifices to some pol's idea of nirvana.
Build them where lots of the people live, and connect up to other mass
transit with frequency. And affordable fares. San Jose did something near
right. Their light rail runs from The North end of San Jose to the way
south. Right down the middle of the valley pretty much. Connects to the
Altamont diesel train at the Northern terminus and the ticket from the train
is good for a ride. The Light rail ticket is $1.25. Good for miles and
miles. Affordable for everybody and convenient to bus connection. Free
connecting bus to San Jose Airport. For the same distance from the airport
at Oakland, BART gets $2 and have to have an exact change BART ticket.
Bill

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

"Mark Browne" wrote in message
news:a77ab.375435$cF.111982@rwcrnsc53...
snip

In this state, the present governor and his legislature have sold out to
the
unions. Make rules that raise the price of construction on public
contracts
sky high. Pay levels higher than 95% of jobs requiring a college
education.
Bill


I think your value system may need a tune-up.

College degree -verses- Technical and union jobs: most of the trades
require
technical school and apprenticeship. If you look at schooling and lost
opportunity costs the pay should be about the same. Unlike the college
degree, the trades are able to do something useful right out of school.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks that claim - "I have a
college
degree but the only job I can get is flipping burgers." Many college
degrees
are useless; the trades should get more. Most employers really could care
less if a potential candidate has written a masters thesis on "the
contributions of Mary Shelly" to the transition of modern literature - or
some similar earthshaking accomplishment. They want someone who has the
right attitude and a good grasp of the basics of whatever it is they are
doing.

If you are envious of the wages made by construction workers, go get a job
in the field - If you think it is just cushy high paid jobs like holding
slow/stop signs, go for it! I have worked around construction workers on
and off for the last twenty years. It is my opinion that the earn their
wages.

Mark Browne



Building trades apprentices get paid while going to school. So very little
lost opportunity cost vs. the full time college student. And most union
jobs are not skilled jobs. What training is required for prison guard
before they are hired? Service Employee's International: Janitors, clerks,
etc. Laborer in the building trade $25-25 / hour. How much training for
manning a shovel?
Bill

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Mark Browne" wrote in message
news:a77ab.375435$cF.111982@rwcrnsc53...
snip

In this state, the present governor and his legislature have sold out
to
the
unions. Make rules that raise the price of construction on public
contracts
sky high. Pay levels higher than 95% of jobs requiring a college
education.
Bill


I think your value system may need a tune-up.

College degree -verses- Technical and union jobs: most of the trades
require
technical school and apprenticeship. If you look at schooling and lost
opportunity costs the pay should be about the same. Unlike the college
degree, the trades are able to do something useful right out of school.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks that claim - "I have a
college
degree but the only job I can get is flipping burgers." Many college
degrees
are useless; the trades should get more. Most employers really could
care
less if a potential candidate has written a masters thesis on "the
contributions of Mary Shelly" to the transition of modern literature -
or
some similar earthshaking accomplishment. They want someone who has the
right attitude and a good grasp of the basics of whatever it is they are
doing.

If you are envious of the wages made by construction workers, go get a
job
in the field - If you think it is just cushy high paid jobs like holding
slow/stop signs, go for it! I have worked around construction workers
on
and off for the last twenty years. It is my opinion that the earn their
wages.

Mark Browne



Building trades apprentices get paid while going to school. So very
little
lost opportunity cost vs. the full time college student. And most union
jobs are not skilled jobs. What training is required for prison guard
before they are hired? Service Employee's International: Janitors,
clerks,
etc. Laborer in the building trade $25-25 / hour. How much training for
manning a shovel?
Bill


Go for it. I'll bet you would last a few hours before you keeled over; you
might even pocket a few bucks before you washed out! After you are done with
your little adventure, come back and we can talk about whether you earned it
or not.

For that matter, I would like to see you work a day doing wipe-downs in a
car wash. You would be one tired pupply if you made it through the day. I'm
guessing you would not.

Mark Browne

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

I can teach a guy to frame a house a whole lot faster and easier than
teaching him the engineering of same building. Sure the apprentices take
some tech courses, but no where near the amount needed for a degree. Maybe
an AA if they also took 30 semester units of liberal arts courses and 14
units of advanced math / english.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Trains already work very nicely for New York and Boston, not to
mention
virtually ALL of Europe.



Most of Europe is very densely populated relative to the land
mass.
Not
a
lot of suburbs as we think of them. So you can run trains between
the
major
population centers and mass transit in the city then works. Paris
is
also
cheap to travel around in their subway. A Carnet (10 tickets is
about
$8)
Each ticket is good for any place in the central area of paris.
Change
trains just like the NY subway and as long as you do not leave the
station,
you get to travel for 1 ticket. Out local mass transit, BART,
costs
a
minimum of $1.50 for one station and to go about 30 miles is
$5.10.
Way
to
expensive, and the connecting busses take for ever to get point A
to
B.
Bill



We do things backwards.

Fact: When we widen or build new highways from major urban centers,
we
make
sprawl worse. So, we end up with cities like NY & Boston which are
surrounded by dense suburbs. In many cases, the population hasn't
grown,
either. It's just relocated. In places like this, trains are ideal.

Cost is subjective, I guess. It certainly makes no sense to NOT
build
light
rail systems if only SOME people think it's expensive. Lots of
people
in
big
cities feel no need to own a car.



Do not know if it still true. Used to be 50% of the population of
the
USA
lived within 500 miles of Cleavland, OH. Includes Boston / NYC.
Very
good
to have mass transit in this situation. Problem with most new Mass
transit,
is the Politics and Union required laws. Bart ends in my town.
Livermore,
Calif is 7 miles away, and has also been paying BART taxes since
1957.
To
run BART the extra 7 miles is projected to run $900 million to $1.5
billion!
It is an above ground light rail. No tunnels required. Where do
these
costs come from? Even figuring in another train does not add up.
Also,
if
the job could be done wrong BART did it. Non-standard guage
railways.
Wrong frequency and voltage for signaling the train as they did not
want
to
pay the railroads for the right to use there system. So we spent
anothor
100 million or so and still lost trains. A high tech fare system
that
costs more to monitor than the extra money a simple ticket or token
for
anywhere in the system ala Paris / London / NYC costs.
Bill




Ahh, yes...those pesky union contracts that call for decent wages,
hours
and working conditions. Perhaps, Bill, you could hire a labor
contractor
from India who would hire some daytrippers to run your trains.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.


In this state, the present governor and his legislature have sold out to
the
unions. Make rules that raise the price of construction on public
contracts
sky high. Pay levels higher than 95% of jobs requiring a college
education.
Bill



Well, many construction jobs do require skill, Bill.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

Calif Bill wrote:

I can teach a guy to frame a house a whole lot faster and easier than
teaching him the engineering of same building. Sure the apprentices take
some tech courses, but no where near the amount needed for a degree. Maybe
an AA if they also took 30 semester units of liberal arts courses and 14
units of advanced math / english.


Uh-huh. Try apprenticing in the electrical trades.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:

I can teach a guy to frame a house a whole lot faster and easier than
teaching him the engineering of same building. Sure the apprentices
take
some tech courses, but no where near the amount needed for a degree.
Maybe
an AA if they also took 30 semester units of liberal arts courses and 14
units of advanced math / english.


Uh-huh. Try apprenticing in the electrical trades.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.


Most electricians can read the code book and look at the tables. They do
not have the ability to engineer the systems. 3-4 years of work and some
schooling. Does not add up to a college degree level of course work.

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
k.net...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:

I can teach a guy to frame a house a whole lot faster and easier than
teaching him the engineering of same building. Sure the apprentices
take
some tech courses, but no where near the amount needed for a degree.
Maybe
an AA if they also took 30 semester units of liberal arts courses and
14
units of advanced math / english.


Uh-huh. Try apprenticing in the electrical trades.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.


Most electricians can read the code book and look at the tables. They do
not have the ability to engineer the systems. 3-4 years of work and some
schooling. Does not add up to a college degree level of course work.

That is playing slightly fast with the facts. I know enough of the trade to
appreciate that there is a good deal to know to *know* the trade.
Some schooling = two year associate degree. That starts to approach the
investment associated with a college degree. When you add the supervised OJT
you have as much investment as an electronics engineering degree.

Mark Browne

OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
 

"Mark Browne" wrote in message
news:1%Wbb.558616$uu5.92324@sccrnsc04...

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
k.net...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:

I can teach a guy to frame a house a whole lot faster and easier
than
teaching him the engineering of same building. Sure the apprentices
take
some tech courses, but no where near the amount needed for a degree.
Maybe
an AA if they also took 30 semester units of liberal arts courses
and
14
units of advanced math / english.


Uh-huh. Try apprenticing in the electrical trades.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.


Most electricians can read the code book and look at the tables. They
do
not have the ability to engineer the systems. 3-4 years of work and
some
schooling. Does not add up to a college degree level of course work.

That is playing slightly fast with the facts. I know enough of the trade
to
appreciate that there is a good deal to know to *know* the trade.
Some schooling = two year associate degree. That starts to approach the
investment associated with a college degree. When you add the supervised
OJT
you have as much investment as an electronics engineering degree.

Mark Browne



I know enough of the trade, and is no where near an EE degree. I have an
EE, and is a whole lot more study went in to that than a electricians
schooling.