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OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
"Jim" wrote in message
news:1qL2b.266410$YN5.182191@sccrnsc01... But the libs would like you to believe otherwise as their only MO is to lay as much blame on GWB for anything and everything that goes wrong. WTF??? Who has blamed Nookular Boy for the blackout? I blame the idiot for repeating the rumor about a lightning strike at Niagara Falls, but that was merely entertainment. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
WTF??? Who has blamed Nookular Boy for the blackout? I blame the idiot for repeating the rumor about a lightning strike at Niagara Falls, but that was merely entertainment. He only repeated what the idiot Prime Minister of Canada said. Bush was stupid to take him at his word. BTW, he said there are "reports that a lightning strike MAY have caused it" |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Of course Al Qaida would love to say they caused the blackout. They are
terrorists and need to have Americans in constant fear of them. Regardless of whatever press Al Qaida puts out only a fool would believe they were responsible for the blackout. Clear minded folks know the outage was due to mechanical failures and lack of adequate response by the engineers at several utility sites, most significantly sites in Ohio managed by First Energy. But the libs would like you to believe otherwise as their only MO is to lay as much blame on GWB for anything and everything that goes wrong. They have a group of extremely weak candidates who bring nothing to the table this coming election. Their only chance of winning is to take down GWB regardless of the cost. Pathetic. Well, since this is your 4th of 5th post since we agreed not to harrass one another I can assume that's off? Have you considered that nobody has more to gain from a public perception that terrorists caused the blackout than GWB and his administration? Why would "libs" spread this rumor? Most of the truly objectionable policies put forward by Bush and his group have been advanced under the excuse of "fighting terrorism." The more terrorism the public perceives, the easier it will be to pass Patriot Acts III, IV, V, VI, and so forth. No liberal that I know is spreading the rumor that terrorists caused the outage. My own statement was the arrest of two Pakistani's on the do-not-fly list trying to pay cash for one-way tickets to NYC the day before was most likely a coincidence. I have never heard anybody of any political bent blame GWB for the blackout. YMMV Given the aging electrical infrastructure and the high AC loads in the summer, it's a wonder we haven't had more blackouts in the past. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Chuck,
Since many people do get po'ed when they are proven wrong, I can understand why you might think I am. I really am not. The point I was trying to make, (and it appears that I was not successful in making any point) is that Usenet chit chat before any facts are known, makes for great Usenet discussion, and for even better arguments, but should never be viewed as anything else but idle bs. As long as people understand that your post about the terrorist, was not meant to do anything but encourage idle chit chat and an occasionally argument you succeeded. I have a real problem when news announcers and talk radio try to solve a problem before any facts have been compiled. It serves no purpose except to grab and hold listeners. I viewed your posts in the same light as I view Rush L. and others who try to stir emotions and grab viewers. On a serious note, though you do seem to see black helicopters behind each "Bush". "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Chuck, it was either you or Noah who once told me that I was talking to a dial tone, perhaps as I was trying to get Dave Hall to wake up. You may be talking to a dial tone now. Naw, Cole is just po'd because a third party proved he was full of horse pucky (when he declared that people who didn't realize the Secret Service was providing security for presidential candidates at this stage in the process were "stupid.") There are some people in the world who are so personally insecure they think they are subject to being shot, drawn, and quartered for ever being wrong. Let's hope Wm Cole isn't in that unfortunate category. Success is being right more than 50% of the time, not 100. :-) |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
"Joe" wrote in message
... WTF??? Who has blamed Nookular Boy for the blackout? I blame the idiot for repeating the rumor about a lightning strike at Niagara Falls, but that was merely entertainment. He only repeated what the idiot Prime Minister of Canada said. Bush was stupid to take him at his word. BTW, he said there are "reports that a lightning strike MAY have caused it" If he doesn't learn to connect someone's brain to his mouth, he's going to get us into a war someday. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
thanks for the copy of news article. I don't put much credence in terrorist
making claims for causing a power outage. I might be wrong, but the purpose of a terrorist is to "terrorize" their enemy. If they can make us believe they caused the power outage, wither they did or not, they still have effectively "terrorized" us. Unless I read some proof from a legitimate news source that the power outage was the result of sabotage, I am going to believe the power company and our government explanation. If their is proof that the outage is the result of sabotage, I don't believe the power company or the government can keep it secret. Someone will "leak" the info to a newsreporter. "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Gould, I did not read that the two terrorist who were arrested in Seattle claimed to have caused the blackout. Coincidence? Probably, but maybe not. And you would not have, either. The term "terrorists" can refer to more than just two people arrested in Seattle. By the way, I have a well founded theory that it wasn't the Secret Service, either. By the remote chance that you're not simply smart assing off and really did miss the terrorists' claim to have caused the blackout, here is the substance: ******************* Al Qaida claims responsibility for blackout SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM Monday, August 18, 2003 Al Qaida's Abu Hafs Brigades has claimed responsibility for the blackout last week in the Northeast and Midwest United States. A communiqué by the Abu Hafs Brigades made reference to Operation Quick Lightning in the Land of the Tyrant of this Generation." It was published as "the third communiqué by the "Brigades." In the first, they accepted responsibility for the downing of an airplane in Kenya. The second accepted responsibility for the Jakarta bombing of the Marriott hotel on August 5, 2003. The new communiqué says that in compliance with the orders of Osama bin Laden to strike at the American economy, the Brigades struck two important electricity supply targets on the East coast, according to the Middle East Media Research Institute. The Brigades say that they cannot reveal how they did it, because they will probably have to use the same method again soon. The communiqué also claimed that the operation was meant as a present for the Iraqi people. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Health insurance for the self-employed: Special offer -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ The following are excerpts from a report by the London-based Arabic daily Al-Hayat about the communiqué: [1] The Blackout was 'a Realization of Bin Laden's promise to offer the Iraqi people a present' "A communiqué attributed to Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for the power blackout that happened in the U.S. last Thursday, saying that the brigades of Abu Fahes Al Masri had hit two main power plants supplying the East of the U.S., as well as major industrial cities in the U.S. and Canada, 'its ally in the war against Islam (New York and Toronto) and their neighbors.' "The communiqué assured that the operation 'was carried out on the orders of Osama bin Laden to hit the pillars of the U.S. economy,' as 'a realization of bin Laden's promise to offer the Iraqi people a present.' 'The Americans lived a black day they will never forget' "The statement, which Al-Hayat obtained from the website of the International Islamic Media Center, didn't specify the way the alleged sabotage was carried out. The communiqué read: 'let the criminal Bush and his gang know that the punishment is the result of the action, the soldiers of God cut the power on these cities, they darkened the lives of the Americans as these criminals blackened the lives of the Muslim people in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine. The Americans lived a black day they will never forget. They lived a day of terror and fear. a state of chaos and confusion where looting and pillaging rampaged the cities, just like the capital of the caliphate Baghdad, and Afghanistan and Palestine were. Let the American people take a sip from the same glass.' 'The U.S. will not live in peace until our conditions are met' "It added: 'we heard amazing statements made by the American and Canadian enemies which have nuclear physics universities and space agencies, that lightning hit and destroyed the two plants. And we are supposed to believe this nonsense. If the blackout occurred in one or two cities, their lie would have been credible. But the fact is that the blackout hit the entire East and part of Canada.' "The communiqué continued: 'one of the benefits of this strike is that the U.S. will not live in peace until our conditions are met, such as releasing all the detainees including Sheikh Omar Abdulrahman, and getting out of the land of the Muslims, including Jerusalem and Kashmir.' "The authors of the communiqué said that the strikes aimed at 'hitting the major pillar of the U.S. economy (the Stock Exchange). [and] the UN, which is opposed to Islam, and is based in New York. It is a message to all the investors that the U.S. is no longer a safe country for their money, knowing that the U.S. economy greatly relies on the trust of the investor.' 'The gift of Sheikh Osama Bin Laden is on its way to the White House' "The communiqué mentioned that some economists said the blackout in the U.S. and Canada would cost the U.S. Treasury no less than ten billion U.S. dollars and in order to 'break the hearts of U.S. officials, just know that the cost paid by the Moujahideen to sabotage the power plants was a mere seven thousand dollars. Die of sorrow!' "The communiqué ended with: 'we tell the Muslims that this is not the awaited strike, but it is called the war of skirmishes (to drain the enemy), and that the American snakes are enormous and need to be consumed and weakened to be destroyed. We tell the people of Afghanistan and Kashmir that the gift of Sheikh Osama bin Laden is on its way to the White House; then the gift of Al Aqsa, and do we know what is the gift of Al Aqsa, where and when? The answer is what you are seeing!' [1] Published in English on Dar Al-Hayat website, August 18, 2003, http://english.daralhayat.com/arab_n...0818-14bdd659- c0a8-01ed-0079-6e1c903b7552/story.html |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Chuck,
Now are you sounding like an intelligent individual analyzing the facts and presenting a sound hypothesis. Instead of someone presenting an outrageous theory, just to encourage idle chit chat. You don't want anyone to think you are just another Rush L. selling his soul for listeners. "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Of course Al Qaida would love to say they caused the blackout. They are terrorists and need to have Americans in constant fear of them. Regardless of whatever press Al Qaida puts out only a fool would believe they were responsible for the blackout. Clear minded folks know the outage was due to mechanical failures and lack of adequate response by the engineers at several utility sites, most significantly sites in Ohio managed by First Energy. But the libs would like you to believe otherwise as their only MO is to lay as much blame on GWB for anything and everything that goes wrong. They have a group of extremely weak candidates who bring nothing to the table this coming election. Their only chance of winning is to take down GWB regardless of the cost. Pathetic. Well, since this is your 4th of 5th post since we agreed not to harrass one another I can assume that's off? Have you considered that nobody has more to gain from a public perception that terrorists caused the blackout than GWB and his administration? Why would "libs" spread this rumor? Most of the truly objectionable policies put forward by Bush and his group have been advanced under the excuse of "fighting terrorism." The more terrorism the public perceives, the easier it will be to pass Patriot Acts III, IV, V, VI, and so forth. No liberal that I know is spreading the rumor that terrorists caused the outage. My own statement was the arrest of two Pakistani's on the do-not-fly list trying to pay cash for one-way tickets to NYC the day before was most likely a coincidence. I have never heard anybody of any political bent blame GWB for the blackout. YMMV Given the aging electrical infrastructure and the high AC loads in the summer, it's a wonder we haven't had more blackouts in the past. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Perhaps you missed the excellent Frontline (PBS) show about 8 months ago, in
which they discussed how vulnerable our infrastructure is to computer attacks. For viewers who just don't get it, they emphasized that there are quite a few utilities whose products (water, electricity, gas) can no longer be controlled quickly by manually turning valves or throwing switches. They interviewed people whose job it was to purposely attack computer systems. They succeeded more often than they would've liked. So, don't assume anything about the cause of ANY infrastructure failure until all the facts are in. "Bill Cole" wrote in message news:KXL2b.266628$YN5.182733@sccrnsc01... thanks for the copy of news article. I don't put much credence in terrorist making claims for causing a power outage. I might be wrong, but the purpose of a terrorist is to "terrorize" their enemy. If they can make us believe they caused the power outage, wither they did or not, they still have effectively "terrorized" us. Unless I read some proof from a legitimate news source that the power outage was the result of sabotage, I am going to believe the power company and our government explanation. If their is proof that the outage is the result of sabotage, I don't believe the power company or the government can keep it secret. Someone will "leak" the info to a newsreporter. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Bill Cole wrote:
thanks for the copy of news article. I don't put much credence in terrorist making claims for causing a power outage. I might be wrong, but the purpose of a terrorist is to "terrorize" their enemy. If they can make us believe they caused the power outage, wither they did or not, they still have effectively "terrorized" us. Exactly! It wouldn't be the first time that a terrorist organization took advantage of a convenient catastophy to advance their cause. To date there is no evidence to suggest that this was anything other than a breakdown in infrastructure, and the failure of certain safeguards to isolate the problem areas. The rest played out like a stack of dominos. I'm waiting for the next hurricane or earthquake to hit, and have Al Qaeda claim responsibility..... Unless I read some proof from a legitimate news source that the power outage was the result of sabotage, I am going to believe the power company and our government explanation. If their is proof that the outage is the result of sabotage, I don't believe the power company or the government can keep it secret. Someone will "leak" the info to a newsreporter. Haven't you heard? It's all GWB's fault. The speculators... I mean, news people said so..... Dave |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
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OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Doug Kanter wrote:
Perhaps you missed the excellent Frontline (PBS) show about 8 months ago, in which they discussed how vulnerable our infrastructure is to computer attacks. The same people who told us that the whole thing would shut down on Jan 1st 2000 at 12:00 Am. For viewers who just don't get it, they emphasized that there are quite a few utilities whose products (water, electricity, gas) can no longer be controlled quickly by manually turning valves or throwing switches. They interviewed people whose job it was to purposely attack computer systems. They succeeded more often than they would've liked. I've been hearing this for many years. I can't believe that these utility companies have not invested in security systems (firewalls, encryption, virus scanning etc.), to make the possibility less likely. Also, some former "hackers" are now making tons of money consulting security solutions to protect companies from other hackers. So, don't assume anything about the cause of ANY infrastructure failure until all the facts are in. It sounds like you guys already are. Chuck seems to think the terrorism angle is the most likely, and from the sounds of it, you do too. The bottom line is, absent of evidence to the contrary, assume it was a simple breakdown in infrastructure. It's not responsible for us to assume the worst until proven otherwise. Dave |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Gould 0738 wrote:
Of course Al Qaida would love to say they caused the blackout. They are terrorists and need to have Americans in constant fear of them. Regardless of whatever press Al Qaida puts out only a fool would believe they were responsible for the blackout. Clear minded folks know the outage was due to mechanical failures and lack of adequate response by the engineers at several utility sites, most significantly sites in Ohio managed by First Energy. But the libs would like you to believe otherwise as their only MO is to lay as much blame on GWB for anything and everything that goes wrong. They have a group of extremely weak candidates who bring nothing to the table this coming election. Their only chance of winning is to take down GWB regardless of the cost. Pathetic. Well, since this is your 4th of 5th post since we agreed not to harrass one another I can assume that's off? Have you considered that nobody has more to gain from a public perception that terrorists caused the blackout than GWB and his administration? Why would "libs" spread this rumor? Most of the truly objectionable policies put forward by Bush and his group have been advanced under the excuse of "fighting terrorism." The more terrorism the public perceives, the easier it will be to pass Patriot Acts III, IV, V, VI, and so forth. No liberal that I know is spreading the rumor that terrorists caused the outage. My own statement was the arrest of two Pakistani's on the do-not-fly list trying to pay cash for one-way tickets to NYC the day before was most likely a coincidence. I have never heard anybody of any political bent blame GWB for the blackout. YMMV Given the aging electrical infrastructure and the high AC loads in the summer, it's a wonder we haven't had more blackouts in the past. Whew! I take back my earlier speculation. It did seem that you were falling into the "terrorists caused the blackout" conspiracy camp. Glad you cleared that up. BTW, there have been "news" articles, from the typical propagandists, who try to spin this blackout as yet another failure of the Bush administration. It's truly pathetic, when you consider the depths that these same people will go to attempt to sling mud at GWB. The only thing they are succeeding in doing, is tarnishing their own credibility. Dave |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
"Dave Hall" wrote in message
... Doug Kanter wrote: Perhaps you missed the excellent Frontline (PBS) show about 8 months ago, in which they discussed how vulnerable our infrastructure is to computer attacks. The same people who told us that the whole thing would shut down on Jan 1st 2000 at 12:00 Am. Same people? Which ones, Dave? Names, please. If a person says "I was hired to hack into Niagara Mohawk's system and I did it in 8 hours, undetected", and he says this while in front of a TV camera, sitting in a NYMO facility with the CEO next to him, please give us a Dave Hall reason to doubt what the guy is saying. Please cleanse your response of any nonsense related to the "millennium bug". For viewers who just don't get it, they emphasized that there are quite a few utilities whose products (water, electricity, gas) can no longer be controlled quickly by manually turning valves or throwing switches. They interviewed people whose job it was to purposely attack computer systems. They succeeded more often than they would've liked. I've been hearing this for many years. I can't believe that these utility companies have not invested in security systems (firewalls, encryption, virus scanning etc.), to make the possibility less likely. Also, some former "hackers" are now making tons of money consulting security solutions to protect companies from other hackers. "I can't believe..." - that's the key phrase in your response. You live a life based on faith. If it only affects you, fine. But, the fact is that despite security measures, hackers WERE able to access utility systems. In the same Frontline show, a group of programmers were able to break into DOD systems and place an annoying message on some rather important workstations. So, don't assume anything about the cause of ANY infrastructure failure until all the facts are in. It sounds like you guys already are. Chuck seems to think the terrorism angle is the most likely, and from the sounds of it, you do too. The bottom line is, absent of evidence to the contrary, assume it was a simple breakdown in infrastructure. It's not responsible for us to assume the worst until proven otherwise. I am assuming nothing about the blackout. But, it appears YOU are assuming that our enemies, for one reason or another, do not have the skills to do what white hackers from around here can do. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
"Dave Hall" wrote in message
... BTW, there have been "news" articles, from the typical propagandists, who try to spin this blackout as yet another failure of the Bush administration. I'd love to see those articles. Got any? |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Of course Al Qaida would love to say they caused the blackout. They are terrorists and need to have Americans in constant fear of them. Regardless of whatever press Al Qaida puts out only a fool would believe they were responsible for the blackout. Clear minded folks know the outage was due to mechanical failures and lack of adequate response by the engineers at several utility sites, most significantly sites in Ohio managed by First Energy. But the libs would like you to believe otherwise as their only MO is to lay as much blame on GWB for anything and everything that goes wrong. They have a group of extremely weak candidates who bring nothing to the table this coming election. Their only chance of winning is to take down GWB regardless of the cost. Pathetic. Well, since this is your 4th of 5th post since we agreed not to harrass one another I can assume that's off? I promised not to respond to you...and I have not. You are the one who now has broken the promise by responding to my post. I knew you were not a man of his word. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
A serious question: Do you actually believe that this blackout WAS the
result of terrorism or, as has been suggested, a breakdown of infrastructure? Dave I seriously believe that if I was Al Quaida, I'd try to take credit for every bit of bad news in the US from forest fires in the NW to seasonal outbreaks of the Hong Kong flu. I also believe that if I were in charge of such decisions in the government, I'd make darn sure the terrorists never got credit for diddly squat- whether they did it or not. Even take 9-11 for example: the govt could have portrayed those tragic events as the deranged act of a group of criminal extremists, and who would have been able to dispute it? (Surgically remove the head of the snake if vengeance is required or desired). Instead we get maybe WW III, and the only difference is how we choose to react. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Chuck - If GWB and his administration can gain so much from the public
perception you speak of, and if, as you and many others have continuously accused, GWB and his administration are such horrendous liars, then WHY did he/they not make the claims you speak of? This government, like all governments before it and all that will follow, does its best to manipulate information to its own advantage. To understand why some information is manipulated in a particular manner and other information is not, cannot be easily guessed by outsiders like you and I. If the USA can steal all the Iraqi oil from under the watchful eyes of the whole entire world, then blaming the electrical outage on terrorist activity should be a snap. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Chuck,
Are you suggesting that the government should have kept the reason for 911 secret from it's citizens? "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... A serious question: Do you actually believe that this blackout WAS the result of terrorism or, as has been suggested, a breakdown of infrastructure? Dave I seriously believe that if I was Al Quaida, I'd try to take credit for every bit of bad news in the US from forest fires in the NW to seasonal outbreaks of the Hong Kong flu. I also believe that if I were in charge of such decisions in the government, I'd make darn sure the terrorists never got credit for diddly squat- whether they did it or not. Even take 9-11 for example: the govt could have portrayed those tragic events as the deranged act of a group of criminal extremists, and who would have been able to dispute it? (Surgically remove the head of the snake if vengeance is required or desired). Instead we get maybe WW III, and the only difference is how we choose to react. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
"Gould 0738" wrote in message
... A serious question: Do you actually believe that this blackout WAS the result of terrorism or, as has been suggested, a breakdown of infrastructure? Dave I seriously believe that if I was Al Quaida, I'd try to take credit for every bit of bad news in the US from forest fires in the NW to seasonal outbreaks of the Hong Kong flu. I also believe that if I were in charge of such decisions in the government, I'd make darn sure the terrorists never got credit for diddly squat- whether they did it or not. Even take 9-11 for example: the govt could have portrayed those tragic events as the deranged act of a group of criminal extremists, and who would have been able to dispute it? (Surgically remove the head of the snake if vengeance is required or desired). Instead we get maybe WW III, and the only difference is how we choose to react. You'd better get ready to rewrite that first paragraph, Chuck. Too many fine points of grammar for this audience. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Chuck,
Are you suggesting that the government should have kept the reason for 911 secret from it's citizens? Those most directly responsible for 9-11 died with their victims. That is a provable truth. They have co-conspirators who lived, and those co-conspirators need to be brought to justice. It is as rational to argue that it was a deranged act of criminal extremists as it is to argue that we needed to completely revamp our foreign policy to include first strike preemption throughout the world as a result of the tragedy. We have used 9-11 to take out Afghanistan. In the last few days before the actual invasion, Bush beat the 9-11 drum over Iraq. How many more wars and invasions will we be able to justify over 9-11? If it were up to me, we would have hunted down Osama Bin Ladin as an individual, international, criminal terrorist *******. We would have not rested until he was brought to justice, (rather than after we secured the pipeline right of way from the Caspain Sea). We practically have the capacity to count the hair on a man's head from outer space. How hard can it be to find an entire human being, provided we are truly dedicated to look for him? *People* can be criminals, not countries or cultures. We destroy countries, dismantle governments, damage cultures, and yet the friggin ciminals (OBL, SH, etc) keep on truckin. At what point do we consider that if we keep on doing what we've been doing so far, we'll just keep on getting what we've already got? A handful of air. No WMD, no OBL, no SH. :-( Bring the *criminals* to justice. Few on the left would disagree with such a program, IMO. Anybody who would use the hunt for the criminals as cover for other purposes is less than forthright, to put it kindly. If our leaders are so incompetant that they cannot locate people so high profile as OBL and SH, they should be replaced. If they are so devious that they deprioritize locating these criminals, they should be replaced. Maybe it boils down to "which" lie is told to the American people. And neither is really acceptable. If we continue to knock off a string of governments and occupy mid east countries without catching the head of the snake, our problems will become larger and larger. IMO, we should bring the criminals to justice and that would solve more than occupying Iraq and Afghanistan. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
"Curtis CCR" wrote in message
om... "jps" wrote in message ... "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... but the National Weather Service said the closest lightning strike in the area was hundreds of miles away, in Maryland. But....the president repeated that rumor. It must be true. The lightning was purchased secretly on the international arms market. From Africa. In the unlikely event that it *was* a terrorist attack, we'd be smart to blame it on lightning. Take away the credit for the disaster, and the air is let out of the terrorist balloon double quick. You want to P off the terrorists? Make sure they stay out of the news. That would be smart but it certainly wouldn't be the course this administration would take. You can be certain if there was a whiff of possibility this could've been attributable to human hands, the White House would've used the opportunity to bolster poll numbers. Then kudos to the White House. They have either made the "smart" move and denied terrorists any publicity, or they have refrained from using the incident for political gain. (Unlike politicians such as Mrs. Clinton, who, before the lights even came back on, was crying out about how this was the Bush administration's fault.) Really? What exactly did she say? |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
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OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
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OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
If GWB and his administration could manipulate information as you suggest,
why are we hearing about the daily casualties in Iraq? He'd be shooting himself in the foot allowing the military to report it. Your arguments lose all logic. John On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD Well, there you go John. Thanks for making my point for me, and so easily. The information is being manipulated because we are hearing *only* about the combat deaths, not the number of injuries, not the number of deaths by traffic accident, disease, etc. Are you under some illusion that only Democratic administrations play fast and loose with the truth? Please. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Really? What exactly did she say?
http://www.thejewishpress.com/news_a...p?article=2751 That could be the most ridiculous item I have read in a long time. Even the author doesn't claim that Hillary blamed Bush for the blackout. He claims she said "I don't think that the administration under the current president is doing enough to make sure we don't have more blackouts in the future." Is that the same thing as blaming the current blackout on Bush? No. Of course not. It gets really good just a paragraph or so down. The author passes along a supposition that Hillary's "incendiary comments" ("I don't think the current administration to doing enough to make sure we don't have more blakcouts in the future") would lead directly to "cops fighting for their lives in our streets!" Then, while they're at it, they drag up some old bone from a year and a half ago ("Did Bush Know"?) and beat her up some more with that. Clearly, these people are extremely afraid of HC. Cops "fighting for their lives in our streets" because HC thinks the administration could be doing more to prevent future blackouts? Puh-leeze. What's Yiddish for ridiculous drivel? ??Not two hours after the lights went out in the Northeast last Thursday, Sen. Hillary Clinton was in front of the microphones doing what she does best: carping, criticizing, dividing. Her first thoughts in a time of crisis were not about how she might help her constituents in their time of need, but about how she might exploit the situation for selfish political gain. While other, far more responsible, elected officials were offering consolation and advice to a concerned citizenry, Hillary was in full campaign mode. While those affected by the power outage were worried about relatives, friends and fellow citizens trapped in high-rise elevators or sweltering subway cars, Hillary had more important matters on her mind. “I don’t think,� she told reporters, “the federal administration under this president is really focused on making sure we don’t have these problems in the future.� New York Republican Congressman Peter King, a pragmatic sort whom even Hillary would never link to the vast right-wing conspiracy roaming the attic of her overactive imagination, described the comments as “absolutely disgraceful,� not least because of their incendiary potential. “There could have been some incident last night,� King told radio host Sean Hannity during an interview on Friday, “and then you attach that to what she’s saying and you get out of control and, before you know it, you have cops fighting for their lives in this city.� Hillary delivered herself of her shrill commentary just as the darkness of night was enveloping a city that found itself with neither lights nor — on an oppressively hot August evening — air conditioning. “We didn’t know what was going to happen,� King told Hannity. “And all you need is someone who’s supposedly a national leader, trying to sow the seeds of division — and you have the police out there trying to keep order in the streets — and you have an elected official basically trying to divide the country, I mean, it’s irresponsible to do that.� NewsMax.com’s Carl Limbacher, author of the new book Hillary’s Scheme which argues that Sen. Clinton is seeking the Democratic presidential nomination in 2004, writes that “Given her outraged tones,� most Americans “would never know that she’s been a leader in opposing energy independence for New York State, preferring instead to champion environmental cause celebs like fighting acid rain and closing the Indian Point nuclear plant.� Limbacher notes that a year ago, “Clinton slammed a Bush administration proposal to allow utilities to upgrade their plants by relaxing a few of the more punishing environmental regulations. She warned of ‘dirtier air and rising temperatures’ that would expose citizens ‘to increased childhood asthma rates, higher sea levels and more acid rain and mercury-tainted fish.’� Limbacher contrasts Clinton’s position to that of former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, “who was making the case that New York needed more power plants as far back as 1999. ‘If we don’t increase significantly the amount of power in the city of New York, we will have happen to us what happened in California,’ Giuliani said after a blackout in upper Manhattan.� Hillary’s behavior brings to mind her performance on the floor of the Senate in May 2002. A New York Post story on U.S. intelligence pre-9/11 carried the terribly misleading headline “Bush Knew.� As the story itself made clear, Bush in fact did not know that massive terrorist attacks against the U.S. were planned for Sept. 11, 2001, but Hillary saw her opportunity: “I am simply here today, on the floor of this hallowed chamber, to seek answers to questions,� she intoned. “Questions raised by our newspapers in New York, such as the one with the headline ‘Bush Knew.’ The president knew what? My constituents would like to know the answers to those questions....� Hillary was well aware that the newspaper account to which she referred did not at all justify her innuendo, but she was determined to squeeze the non-story for every last drop of political juice. Note To Readers: Radio talker Michael Savage, whose program was terminated by WABC, has been hired by WOR (710 AM) to host a show weeknights from 8 to 10 p.m. Jason Maoz can be reached at |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Gould - How long did it take to track down the Atlanta Olympics bomber? Even
then, we caught him by accident! Do you honestly think we were not looking? John On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD Not the same thing at all, John. There was a task force of probably a couple dozen guys trying to find the Atlanta Olympics bomber. Yeah, they probably looked for him some everyday. The difference here is that we don't have to first wonder who the culprit is. We know who he is. We've narrowly missed him a couple of times. If we spent half the manpower, money, and technology we dedicated to invading Iraq to finding OBL, there isn't a rock on the planet where the guy could hide. It's a question of priorities. What are we spending in Iraq, to protect American citizens from terrorism? I've heard figures of about a billion a week- but let's fudge the numbers all the way down to a billion a quarter and even the most ardent Bush supporter would reluctantly admit that's way low. We got Udai and Kusai ratted out for $30mm. A few days' expense, even at a reducd rate of a billion every 90 days. Would $100 million rat out OBL? $200 million? $300 million, a US green card, and a total plastic surgery makeover for the informant and his family? There's a price that would buy OBL, and it's probably a lot cheaper than the course we're on.....*if* our intention is to catch the criminal ******* at the head of the organization that blew down the WTC etc. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
"Bill Cole" wrote in message . net... Chuck, I think you are in the wrong job, we need someone like you in Washington to solve all of our problems. With the amount of time old Chuck spends here and the time he takes to write his liberal political rants (have you ever read a reply of his that was less than 1,000 words?), you have to wonder if he even has a life. Going to Washington DC would do him good as it would get him out of the house. But a liberal used boat salesman in Washington? I guess we could do worse. We could get Harry. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Gould 0738 wrote:
A serious question: Do you actually believe that this blackout WAS the result of terrorism or, as has been suggested, a breakdown of infrastructure? Dave I seriously believe that if I was Al Quaida, I'd try to take credit for every bit of bad news in the US from forest fires in the NW to seasonal outbreaks of the Hong Kong flu. Or that 3.8 ricter earthquake that hit central NJ yesterday? Your point illustrates nicely how terrorists will try exactly that. Further evidence that they are in fact not responsible, absent other evidence. I also believe that if I were in charge of such decisions in the government, I'd make darn sure the terrorists never got credit for diddly squat- whether they did it or not. Even take 9-11 for example: the govt could have portrayed those tragic events as the deranged act of a group of criminal extremists, and who would have been able to dispute it? (Surgically remove the head of the snake if vengeance is required or desired). Instead we get maybe WW III, and the only difference is how we choose to react. So you are advocating that the government mislead us then? Hmm, imagine what would happen if the left got wind that the Bush administration held out "the truth" from us. It would be a political free-for-all, with the predicatable Bush haters calling for his head on a platter. You can't have it both ways. If you believe that it's in the best interest of this country to NOT know all the gory details, then you can't complain when they do it. Dave |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
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OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Gould 0738 wrote:
Chuck, Are you suggesting that the government should have kept the reason for 911 secret from it's citizens? If it were up to me, we would have hunted down Osama Bin Ladin as an individual, international, criminal terrorist *******. We would have not rested until he was brought to justice, (rather than after we secured the pipeline right of way from the Caspain Sea). We practically have the capacity to count the hair on a man's head from outer space. How hard can it be to find an entire human being, provided we are truly dedicated to look for him? Do you think you might be overestimating our ability to "track" people? It would seem that people who want to be hidden, can do so for quite sometime. Look at Eric Rudolph, who lived on the lam for 5 years, with only his wits to guide him. Which brings us back to the original statement, how would you "hunt" down a criminal such as OBL or SH, when we have no legal right to enter the country which harbors him? If the host country refuses to help us, do we just turn around, or do we comitt an act of war by defying the wishes of the host country? That was the whole premise for the campaign against Afghanistan and Iraq. Remember, that aiding the terrorists was akin to being an accessory to the "crime", and are therefore equally culpable. *People* can be criminals, not countries or cultures. But cultures can breed a mindset which results in "criminal" behavior being carried out against those which they've been indoctrinated to belive, are their sworn enemies. We destroy countries, dismantle governments, damage cultures, and yet the friggin ciminals (OBL, SH, etc) keep on truckin. You turn over enough rocks, and you're bound to eventually find the snake. It also sends a message to other people, that it would not be a wise idea to "F" with us. Bring the *criminals* to justice. Easy to say. Far harder to do. Few on the left would disagree with such a program, IMO. And even fewer on the left could come up with a comprehensive plan of just how to do it. The left is full of people who are long on criticism, and far short on rational, and practical solutions. Anybody who would use the hunt for the criminals as cover for other purposes is less than forthright, to put it kindly. I'd agree. I'd also point out that people who jump to that conclusion, based on little more than speculative musings, are doing their country a disservice. If our leaders are so incompetant that they cannot locate people so high profile as OBL and SH, they should be replaced. If they are so devious that they deprioritize locating these criminals, they should be replaced. Again, I think you are overestimating our "locating" ability, or underestimating the resolve and innovative skill of those who terrorise us. Maybe it boils down to "which" lie is told to the American people. And neither is really acceptable. If we continue to knock off a string of governments and occupy mid east countries without catching the head of the snake, our problems will become larger and larger. When the snake is free to hide in countries who are not motivated to oppose it, we will never get it completely. At some point we have to step on some toes if we are truly motivated in erradicating the mindset of terrorism. IMO, we should bring the criminals to justice and that would solve more than occupying Iraq and Afghanistan. For every OBL and SH we bring to justice, there are many others ready to step up to take over. OBL is not the end all of terrorism. In fact, it really matters little except as a technical point and a morale boost to actually find these guys. It's far more important to stamp out what they stand for. Dave |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Gould 0738 wrote:
We got Udai and Kusai ratted out for $30mm. A few days' expense, even at a reducd rate of a billion every 90 days. Would $100 million rat out OBL? $200 million? $300 million, a US green card, and a total plastic surgery makeover for the informant and his family? There's a price that would buy OBL, and it's probably a lot cheaper than the course we're on.....*if* our intention is to catch the criminal ******* at the head of the organization that blew down the WTC etc. Chuck, you assume that the people with the information, are as consumer, and materially oriented as an American. Many of those people loath what the american dollar stands for, and offering it as an incentive to "give up" their comrades, will not have the same appeal. Offer them the 70 virgins and the all night party at Allah's, and then they might think about it...... Dave |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
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OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Dave Hall" wrote in message ... BTW, there have been "news" articles, from the typical propagandists, who try to spin this blackout as yet another failure of the Bush administration. I'd love to see those articles. Got any? You know how to use google, look them up. I'm not doing your homework for you. Try using "Bush administration" "blackout" and "failure" as keywords. Dave |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
"Joe" wrote in message
... Really? What exactly did she say? http://www.thejewishpress.com/news_a...p?article=2751 " Limbacher notes that a year ago, “Clinton slammed a Bush administration proposal to allow utilities to upgrade their plants by relaxing a few of the more punishing environmental regulations. She warned of ‘dirtier air and rising temperatures’ that would expose citizens ‘to increased childhood asthma rates, higher sea levels and more acid rain and mercury-tainted fish.’” Must be painful when a politician says something which is true, something which makes it even more obvious that your president has a huge supply of kneepads which he uses when servicing his campaign contributors. Your boy is currently doing exactly what Ms. Clinton mentioned: dismantling clean air regulations. The results are obvious. Example: Tupper Lake, in the Adirondacks, where I vacation each year, now has mercury warnings for most of its fish. President Nookular Boy couldn't give a damn. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
"Dave Hall" wrote in message
... Doug Kanter wrote: "Dave Hall" wrote in message ... Doug Kanter wrote: Perhaps you missed the excellent Frontline (PBS) show about 8 months ago, in which they discussed how vulnerable our infrastructure is to computer attacks. The same people who told us that the whole thing would shut down on Jan 1st 2000 at 12:00 Am. Same people? Which ones, Dave? Names, please. If a person says "I was hired to hack into Niagara Mohawk's system and I did it in 8 hours, undetected", and he says this while in front of a TV camera, sitting in a NYMO facility with the CEO next to him, please give us a Dave Hall reason to doubt what the guy is saying. Talk is cheap. Besides, you do realize that that frontline show is almost 10 years old now? I remember seeing something like that about that far back. The guy siting there and saying that he came one keystroke away from shutting the whole thing down. In those 10 years since, don't you think the power companies have had time to boost their defenses? Sorry, Dave, but the Frontline show which was aired this past spring mentioned events which occurred during the past couple of years, some after 9/11. Try again. Please cleanse your response of any nonsense related to the "millennium bug". The point is that there are doomsayers all over the place, who feed on the gullible and the naive. Just because someone says that they can do something, does not mean that they actually can. Our DOD (Dep't of Defense) is like the old Soviet regime in one way: It's loathe to admit when something's gone wrong. In this case, they put a spokesperson on TV to discuss the breach of security. For viewers who just don't get it, they emphasized that there are quite a few utilities whose products (water, electricity, gas) can no longer be controlled quickly by manually turning valves or throwing switches. They interviewed people whose job it was to purposely attack computer systems. They succeeded more often than they would've liked. I've been hearing this for many years. I can't believe that these utility companies have not invested in security systems (firewalls, encryption, virus scanning etc.), to make the possibility less likely. Also, some former "hackers" are now making tons of money consulting security solutions to protect companies from other hackers. "I can't believe..." - that's the key phrase in your response. Based on a logical assumption that when presented with the facts, that the companies responsible would not just ignore them, and would do something about it Anti-virus software publishers "do something" about every virus that comes along. A week later, another one comes along. "Doing something" about other types of security breaches does not necessarily prevent the next one, something which is obvious to anyone who follows the news. I am realistic in my opinion that in the years since this vulnerability was initially exposed, that security has been increased, rendering the likelihood all the more remote. God will take care of it. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
"Dave Hall" wrote in message
... Gould 0738 wrote: We got Udai and Kusai ratted out for $30mm. A few days' expense, even at a reducd rate of a billion every 90 days. Would $100 million rat out OBL? $200 million? $300 million, a US green card, and a total plastic surgery makeover for the informant and his family? There's a price that would buy OBL, and it's probably a lot cheaper than the course we're on.....*if* our intention is to catch the criminal ******* at the head of the organization that blew down the WTC etc. Chuck, you assume that the people with the information, are as consumer, and materially oriented as an American. Many of those people loath what the american dollar stands for, and offering it as an incentive to "give up" their comrades, will not have the same appeal. Offer them the 70 virgins and the all night party at Allah's, and then they might think about it...... Dave The burgeoning black market in the Middle East for Western goods suggests that people over there are as materialistic as anyone else. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
"Dave Hall" wrote in message
... Doug Kanter wrote: "Dave Hall" wrote in message ... BTW, there have been "news" articles, from the typical propagandists, who try to spin this blackout as yet another failure of the Bush administration. I'd love to see those articles. Got any? You know how to use google, look them up. I'm not doing your homework for you. Try using "Bush administration" "blackout" and "failure" as keywords. Dave OK...I see the problem here. In between "blackout" and "Bush", there is path which winds too much for you to understand. Fortunately, we can straighten the path so you won't hyperventilate: 1) Proven fact: Pollution from coal-burning electric generating plants in the Midwest blows East, and ends up in NY, PA and New England. Chemists know this because they've inserted tracers into fuel supplies and found those same tracers downwind. 2) Proven fact: Among other things, the particulates include things like mercury, which ends up in our water. 3) Politicians and electric companies from states like Ohio have STOPPED claiming that #1 and #2 are untrue, and have switched to saying that it's prohibitively expensive to install equipment which would drastically reduce emissions. 4) Bush and his EPA are bending to the wishes of the parties mentioned in #3, and allowing them to expand generating capacity without using technology which would minimize the problems mentioned in #1 and #2. 5) Elliot Spitzer, NY's attorney general, is preparing to take the offending parties to court before more damage is done. I say Bush is hindering the production of sufficient electricity. You will say Spitzer is the problem. Take your pick. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Chuck, you assume that the people with the information, are as consumer,
and materially oriented as an American. Many of those people loath what the american dollar stands for, and offering it as an incentive to "give up" their comrades, will not have the same appeal. Offer them the 70 virgins and the all night party at Allah's, and then they might think about it...... Dave Well let's do the math he $200 million. Subtact 25 million to purchase a "palace" in most any state in the union. $175 million left. Pay 100 guys $100k a year each to guard your sorry butt for 50 years, $125 million left. Hire 70 women to service your every desire. You should probably find women willing to live in a palace and put on an act once ever so often for what, $200k a year apiece? I guess it would take about ten years to screw through the rest of the money- at which time even Allah would have to admit the gals were no longer virgins. |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Gould 0738 wrote:
Even take 9-11 for example: the govt could have portrayed those tragic events as the deranged act of a group of criminal extremists, So you are advocating that the government mislead us then? Hmm, imagine what would happen if the left got wind that the Bush administration held out "the truth" from us. ?????????????????????????????? It *WAS* the deranged act of a group of criminal ******* extremists, Dave. Not an excuse to invade two countries (so far), and openly state that there are more members of the "axis of evil" at risk from our actions in the "war on terror". But there ARE other members of whatever name you wish to apply to the terrorists groups. The perps on 911 were not acting alone. While you can cut off a plant by the branches, and it keeps growing back, until you hit the roots of the evil, it will also keep coming back. The ringleaders should be brought to justice covertly. For what purpose other than "feel good" pride? You think the group will fall apart when the leader is caught? As far as we know OBL is already dead, and the group is still functioning. So far, our overt acts have failed to eliminate the top layer of the terrorist network that attacked us in the US. We have captured several of the "top dogs" in Al Qaeda. How many more do we need to catch? And even when we do, there are still junior members ready to step in. We have to stamp out the environment which creates these people. What's just a bit scary about your guy and his crew is the espoused philosophy that we should now attack everybody who might, in the future, do some harm to the United States (maybe). There's no 100% reliable way to know who these people are, but if we wipe out enough people in various areas of the world maybe we can get them all. Maybe. That's one hell of an exaggeration. It's not the way you portrayed it. We have intelligence that tells our government (But not the propaganda speculators) exactly who and where terrorists are likely to be hiding out, and which governments either overtly or covertly support them. We have a responsibility to stamp out the whole plant, or it will just grow back. We know this: we better not miss as many as 19. I'm not sure what you mean by the "19" reference. You can't have it both ways. If you believe that it's in the best interest of this country to NOT know all the gory details, then you can't complain when they do it. Your logic just collapsed on itself. No, it hasn't. You just misunderstood. I stated that If you believe that it's in the best interest of this country to NOT know all the gory details, then you can't complain when they do hold back the information. And we know that's the typical MO of the left, when they are constantly on the attack, criticising the administration for not being "straight up" with the people. I have some very terrible news for you. The odds that you actually have any clue about the actual "gory details" are close to zero. The same goes for you, but that hasn't stopped you from speculating all sorts of theories (not so coincidently critical of our administration's motives) as to what has been happening and why. The whole "war for oil" mindset. All you or I know is what we read in the papers or (in your case) hear on talk radio. And you too evidently. You seem to know far too much about what is being spewed out by the latest Limbaugh clone. Every government, including this one, keeps important secrets from the press. You are correct, and for good reason. Yet why do your bretheran on the left constantly criticize our administration for this practice? Why do these people feel that the public has the right to know everything? And when they find hints of certain classified material, they right away jump to the conclusion that the government is "up to no good"? (Of course this depends on whether there's a republican in office) International diplomacy is like a poker game- you might be likely to bluff but it's unlikely you'll show your actual cards around the table while the bets are going into the pot. Except that we hold the winning hand. Dave |
OT- Power outage in NY. Coincidence?
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Dave Hall" wrote in message ... Which brings us back to the original statement, how would you "hunt" down a criminal such as OBL or SH, when we have no legal right to enter the country which harbors him? If the host country refuses to help us, do we just turn around, or do we comitt an act of war by defying the wishes of the host country? That was the whole premise for the campaign against Afghanistan and Iraq. Remember, that aiding the terrorists was akin to being an accessory to the "crime", and are therefore equally culpable. I just figured it out, Dave. I can't believe it took so long. You are actually a skel who lives on the streets, and stumbles into an internet cafe with panhandled coins to use their computer a couple of times a day. How else could we explain what you just said, other than to blame intravenous narcotics use and a diet of Thunderbird? "no legal right to enter the country which harbors him" ????? So: If we sent spies to hunt down and kill OBL, that would be wrong because we might not have the legal right to enter countries without their permission. But, if we send enough people in military uniforms, it's a different story? A patriotic endeavor? Sigh. It figures that you just don't get it. Try reading it again a little slower this time. The point, if you still don't get it, is that if we want to play the good guy, and respect the sovereignty of all nations, then we have no right to cross the borders of any country which hides terrorist camps, without their cooperation. Last time I looked, most are not cooperating. So what's the difference if we send in covert assasins or a full blown military garrison? Dave |
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