"K. Smith" wrote in message
...


Here is the proof positive the dealer who posted this deceptive BS will
say &/or do most anything to make a sale

At 5400 (305rpm below their dealer claims) just what HP would a 250 E-Tec
be actually making??? a simple bit of math would indicate as low as
213-220HP!!! nothing even like 250HP (per engine 18.93 gph /0.0888gph per
HP = 213HP)




OK, Ms. Smith,

Once again you are showing off your ignorance of E-TEC motors and (with your
own quote) "Here is the proof positive". The Evinrude E-TEC is rated at
250hp at 5150 rpm so at 5400 rpm it is within its operating range and well
below the redline of 5800 rpm.

Since you are the one demanding "proof" on everything, yet NEVER give any
for your "claims", just click on Evinrude's website and read the
specifications page. I'll even hold your hand and give you the link:
http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/Engine...ations/250.V6/

The above link is for the US website, for Australia, you can click on the
BRP International website in English and once again, you will see that you
were wrong about the E-TEC specs:
http://www.brp.com/en/Products/Evinr...ductID=ETEC250

I don't mind discussions and debates, but I prefer to converse with someone
who is at least familiar with a subject and who doesn't run off at the mouth
making erroneous and unsubstantiated claims.

Bill Grannis
service manager

..

Billgran wrote:
"K. Smith" wrote in message
...


Here is the proof positive the dealer who posted this deceptive BS will

say &/or do most anything to make a sale

At 5400 (305rpm below their dealer claims) just what HP would a 250 E-Tec
be actually making??? a simple bit of math would indicate as low as
213-220HP!!! nothing even like 250HP (per engine 18.93 gph /0.0888gph per
HP = 213HP)





OK, Ms. Smith,

Once again you are showing off your ignorance of E-TEC motors and (with your
own quote) "Here is the proof positive". The Evinrude E-TEC is rated at
250hp at 5150 rpm so at 5400 rpm it is within its operating range and well
below the redline of 5800 rpm.

Since you are the one demanding "proof" on everything, yet NEVER give any
for your "claims", just click on Evinrude's website and read the
specifications page. I'll even hold your hand and give you the link:
http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/Engine...ations/250.V6/

The above link is for the US website, for Australia, you can click on the
BRP International website in English and once again, you will see that you
were wrong about the E-TEC specs:
http://www.brp.com/en/Products/Evinr...ductID=ETEC250

I don't mind discussions and debates, but I prefer to converse with someone
who is at least familiar with a subject and who doesn't run off at the mouth
making erroneous and unsubstantiated claims.

Bill Grannis
service manager

.



So runaway you don't withdraw or modify your claim with BS fuel use
chart attached, that 2 X 250HP E-Tecs at max power only use 37.84 gph or
18.92 gph for each engine??? This is your natural justice opportunity to
withdraw or modify it as just being more of your false marketing BS. If
you're going to stick with it I suggest you find some independent
corroboration pronto because over this US summer you'll be needing it in
at least this NG:-)

Sorry Runaway it's you that doesn't "know" again you just quote the Co
marketing line & as usual give more of your marketing deceptions as
substantiation of your marketing deceptions. Links to just more of your
spruiking Co. claims don't mean a thing, your marketing claims about
fuel consumption are exactly what I'm challenging & in doing so I raise
the issue that if your fuel consumption claims are correct then you must
be well down on HP???. At least one "independent" test has found your Co
wanting when asked to pony up with the claimed HP distant 3rd behind
competition???.

That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims"
& every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found
out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP
(+), a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's
was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque.

A name change doesn't clear the slate, doesn't wipe out previous
failures, doesn't mean your previous failed independent fuel consumption
& HP tests just go away, it's you who is marketing; you need to firstly
address the "issues" if even possible:-)

Your fuel consumption claims when "independently" tested show they use
significantly "more" fuel than the figures you use in your advertising,
& it seems 10-15% more than the other 2 or 4 stroke competition.

Again as I showed in pasted sections you've again used a deceptive set
of figures, which suited your marketing purposes where you claimed 2 X
250HP E-Tecs at max power only use 18.92 gph each to make 250HP??? when
even your BS dealers annon site admits they use 22.21 gph to make
"maybe" 250HP (NB: I in no manner accept even that figure!! I say "we"
need to see an independent test not marketing BS from your mob)

Do you have one independent test that shows your 250HP placarded engine
can make 250HP??? & then do it on 18.92 gph of fuel??? Anything at
all???? Before you go ballistic I accept it's not illegal to overstate
OB HP figures (I'm not so sure it's "legal to give false fuel
consumption claims) but in such high powered engines it's certainly a
relevant matter.

So at this stage I better put you on notice I guess that so far I say
your fuel consumption claim for the E-Tec 250 is 3.29 gph below the as
yet not independently confirmed annon. dealer site claim??? or say the
current Co claim is over 17% higher????

Thanks for your help:-)

K

K. Smith wrote:


That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims"
& every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found
out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP
(+),

On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor...

a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's
was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque.

BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm...

A name change doesn't clear the slate,

It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably
don't...

Rob

trainfan1 wrote:
K. Smith wrote:


That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your
"claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far) you
are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the
claimed 250HP (+),


On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor...

The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their
motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will always
have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine was 13HP
below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP.


a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's

was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque.


BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm...

I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant if
the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but when
it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to still
sell no matter what???

Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the
competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money
going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are
simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple
variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world
leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super
priced whipper snipper motors.

The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown
at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it takes
to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or bomb will
ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training BS money
return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are aware. The
same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the dealers of course
even in this NG denied it all day long, till the bankruptcy court
uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks.
Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail
sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were
hoping she'd refer them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were
flogging known defective ficht engines for extra money (one even made it
clear they'd said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger
rebates etc).

Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam & nobody
will say anything??



A name change doesn't clear the slate,


It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably
don't...

It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements" are
about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough that the
dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??.

How does a treated bore stop detonation??

How do high melting point pistons stop detonation???

How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation??

How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough
atomisation to stop detonation???

How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop
detonation?? it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation.

How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation??

The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3
emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the
inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly
atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication.

Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative
deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands???

K


Rob

So, K.... what's a poor boater to do? Per yr message all dealers that sell
Evinrudes are crooked and liars and don't deserve our business. How about
the others? Don't they all commit the same sins of overstating the value
and reliability of the stuff they sell?

In my experience dealers try to find out what you want and sometimes even
what you need. Then they try to find out what you are capable of buying.
If possible, they then try to match you to a package that you want, need,
and can buy. Do they hype the products they sell? Of course they do.
They'd like to eat and support a family. Is that bad?

Perhaps most dealers are not as well informed as you and lack your technical
expertise and therefore sell unsatisfactory goods to customers. Or maybe
they're just rats who seek to screw everyone they sell to. After all,
that's a swell way to stay in business over the long haul, no?

So, K.... what outboards do you feel are satisfatory performers with great
reliability. Maybe that new supercharged four stroke is the one.

Respectful regards,

Butch

"K. Smith" wrote in message
...
trainfan1 wrote:
K. Smith wrote:


That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims"
& every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found
out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP
(+),


On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor...

The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their motor
also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will always have the
dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine was 13HP below the
Merc that's a fair bit of HP.


a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's

was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque.


BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm...

I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant if
the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but when
it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to still
sell no matter what???

Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the
competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money
going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are simple
old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple variable
timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world leading &
proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super priced whipper
snipper motors.

The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown at
the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it takes to
make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or bomb will ever
admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training BS money return
schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are aware. The same
marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the dealers of course even in
this NG denied it all day long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the
truth when the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her
Honour found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks &
that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer
them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known
defective ficht engines for extra money (one even made it clear they'd
said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc).

Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam & nobody
will say anything??



A name change doesn't clear the slate,


It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably
don't...

It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements" are
about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough that the
dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??.

How does a treated bore stop detonation??

How do high melting point pistons stop detonation???

How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation??

How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough
atomisation to stop detonation???

How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop
detonation?? it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation.

How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation??

The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3
emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the inevitable
detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly atomised low
pressure injection with very questionable lubrication.

Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative deal
to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands???

K


Rob

Butch Davis wrote:
So, K.... what's a poor boater to do? Per yr message all dealers that sell
Evinrudes are crooked and liars and don't deserve our business. How about
the others? Don't they all commit the same sins of overstating the value
and reliability of the stuff they sell?

In my experience dealers try to find out what you want and sometimes even
what you need. Then they try to find out what you are capable of buying.
If possible, they then try to match you to a package that you want, need,
and can buy. Do they hype the products they sell? Of course they do.
They'd like to eat and support a family. Is that bad?

Perhaps most dealers are not as well informed as you and lack your technical
expertise and therefore sell unsatisfactory goods to customers. Or maybe
they're just rats who seek to screw everyone they sell to. After all,
that's a swell way to stay in business over the long haul, no?

So, K.... what outboards do you feel are satisfatory performers with great
reliability. Maybe that new supercharged four stroke is the one.

Respectful regards,

Butch

Hi Butch,

There's not much you can do to avoid them they're a retail price
maintenance scam of the first order.

You cannot buy the engines other than through an "authorised" dealer &
the dealers are closely controlled by the manufacturer/supplier. Most of
the dealers' profit comes from post sale rebates, plans, meetings
display payments, rewards, etc etc all discretionary & all post retail.

This way if any one dealer did really start to sell quantities of
engines either below the dealer invoice (reliant upon still getting
rebates etc later) or say out of area or ................. then the
other dealers would soon complain & that dealer would find his rebates
getting clipped.

The aggregate of returns on big ticket motors is in the realm of 17.5 to
22% unless of course we now know that had been upped to 30% to sell Ficht.

This is for engines they don't even have to pay for!!! the Manufacturer
"organises" the finance as part of the kickbacks (that way the
manufacturer gets instant cash flow by merely delivering the engines out
the door.

You as a punter get no chance to avoid a corrupt market where a two
stroke over grown whipper snipper engine with a right angle drive
attached costs more than a medium sized car!!!

The dealers are the front line of this & need to be named as such. Again
you correctly point out you can't avoid them but equally you shouldn't
just bend over.

You will remember when Ficht finally dragged OMC under all the
previously full of it dealers in this NG just ran away!!!! They really
did!!! Runaway william even tried denying it & I had to post hist
history, truly a dealer to the core say or do anything to make a sale
to the gullible. The only reason runaway is back is he's trying to sell
more of the same & he still doesn't even admit the first run was a total
failure.

I know you object to my position & I even respect that but you need to
offer actual technical comment if you have some & we can debate it.

This time I will not be intimidated by the same BS spreading dealers &
this time anyone who wants to find E-Tec failures will be able to on the
simplest of searches at our public no spam NG.

K

"K. Smith" wrote in message
...

trainfan1 wrote:

K. Smith wrote:


That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims"
& every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found
out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP
(+),


On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor...

The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their motor
also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will always have the
dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine was 13HP below the
Merc that's a fair bit of HP.


a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's


was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque.


BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm...

I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant if
the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but when
it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to still
sell no matter what???

Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the
competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money
going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are simple
old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple variable
timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world leading &
proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super priced whipper
snipper motors.

The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown at
the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it takes to
make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or bomb will ever
admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training BS money return
schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are aware. The same
marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the dealers of course even in
this NG denied it all day long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the
truth when the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her
Honour found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks &
that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer
them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known
defective ficht engines for extra money (one even made it clear they'd
said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc).

Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam & nobody
will say anything??


A name change doesn't clear the slate,


It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably
don't...

It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements" are
about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough that the
dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??.

How does a treated bore stop detonation??

How do high melting point pistons stop detonation???

How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation??

How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough
atomisation to stop detonation???

How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop
detonation?? it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation.

How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation??

The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3
emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the inevitable
detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly atomised low
pressure injection with very questionable lubrication.

Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative deal
to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands???

K


Rob

K. Smith wrote:
trainfan1 wrote:

K. Smith wrote:


That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your
"claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far)
you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made
the claimed 250HP (+),



On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor...


The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their
motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will always
have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine was 13HP
below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP.


a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's

was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque.



BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm...


I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant if
the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but when
it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to still
sell no matter what???

Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the
competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money
going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are
simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple
variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world
leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super
priced whipper snipper motors.

The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown
at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it takes
to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or bomb will
ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training BS money
return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are aware. The
same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the dealers of course
even in this NG denied it all day long, till the bankruptcy court
uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks.
Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail
sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were
hoping she'd refer them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were
flogging known defective ficht engines for extra money (one even made it
clear they'd said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger
rebates etc).

Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam & nobody
will say anything??



A name change doesn't clear the slate,



It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably
don't...


It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements" are
about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough that the
dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??.

How does a treated bore stop detonation??

Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot spots
in the chamber.


How do high melting point pistons stop detonation???

Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot piston
centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens cylinder
temperatures reducing detonation.

How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation??

Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting
combustion/dieselingsyndrome, reducing detonation.

How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough
atomisation to stop detonation???

It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation,
cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect
flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. The injector
system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of the
whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the injectors
should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good combustion,
and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the
compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to attain
stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete combustion. This
is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge
must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop
detonation??

This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation.

How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation??

Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT all
day long up on a jack plate...

The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3
emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the
inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly
atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication.

Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative
deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands???

You REALLY don't know me...

but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't
understand?

Rob




K


Rob

trainfan1 wrote:
K. Smith wrote:

trainfan1 wrote:

K. Smith wrote:


That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your
"claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far)
you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made
the claimed 250HP (+),




On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor...



The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their
motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will
always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine
was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP.


a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's

was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque.




BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm...



I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant
if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but
when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to
still sell no matter what???

Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the
competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money
going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are
simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple
variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world
leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super
priced whipper snipper motors.

The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown
at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it
takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or
bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training
BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are
aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the
dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day long, till the
bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover
the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted
30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to
them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for resale price
maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective ficht engines
for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said they'd stop
selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc).

Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam &
nobody will say anything??



A name change doesn't clear the slate,




It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably
don't...



It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements"
are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough
that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??.

How does a treated bore stop detonation??


Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot spots
in the chamber.

I disagree Rob in petrol engines the burn is all done & finished before
the piston leaves TDC so the "chamber" has effectively no "bore" in
play. As for the coating there is no indication it's better at heat
transfer from the rings (hopefully the only heat bridge available). It
would seem that the Ficht melted pistons & scored bores are behind this
more faulty ficht thinking. They are treating the symptoms after
detonation damage & not the cause, which is the detonation itself.



How do high melting point pistons stop detonation???


Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot piston
centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens cylinder
temperatures reducing detonation.

Well that's not what NASA say about their alloy & not what Bomb say all
the time they highlight the new alloy's ability to withstand very high
temps. Again the symptom is melted pistons so they think making them
less likely to melt will help, not so. A proper petrol mixture will auto
ignite at about 260C which is well below the danger temp for most
ordinary aluminium alloys, that's why every single big engine maker,
except yours, uses it.

If the chamber has any part of it above around 260C then the fuel mix
will auto ignite which then quickly degenerates into full on
uncontrolled detonation.

So again my position is they're just trying to make it strong enough to
hang together through that detonation period. I suspect some more will
but enough won't that it's a dead technology.



How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation??


Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting
combustion/dieselingsyndrome, reducing detonation.

Again you seem to be admitted excessive heat being present?? & that's
the issue. Once the piston is overly hot detonation is a consequence.
The baked oil they were finding behind the rings isn't the cause of the
failures it's just another symptom of an over hot piston which when
suddenly fed full mixture lapses into full detonation.


How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough
atomisation to stop detonation???


It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation,
cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect
flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not.

When in lean mode there is no flame travel & this is bomb's claim. They
admit the mixture is so lean it won't ignite unless directed at the
continuously firing plug. (almost so; the pin stops a direct hit). The
mixtures are so lean in any other situation they just wouldn't ignite
(35 or 40 to 1???? when they came out they spruiked 40-1 till people
started telling them that's not possible to safely ignite & as we all
now know; it wasn't)


The injector
system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of the
whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the injectors
should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good combustion,
and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the
compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to attain
stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete combustion. This
is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge
must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

The lean charge as you call it is so lean there is no cooling at all,
lean mixtures have always blown engines by slowing the flame front way
down, this results in heat buildup in the chamber. No detonation when
lean there isn't enough fuel to do it, but once the engine tries to
revert back to full mixture mode (say after 2000rpm) then the hot
chamber (piston mainly because it's totally uncooled in any manner)
allows some autoignition which quickly builds more heat then that
particular cyl lapses into full detonation & the game is over.



How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop
detonation??


This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation.

Lean mixtures can make exhaust temps cooler because there is less fuel
to burn but the burn is so slow that the chamber walls get hot.


How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation??


Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT all
day long up on a jack plate...

Or again it's treating the symptoms the OMC gearcases were always not as
good as the rest but the detonation thumping from Ficht smashed them
even more, so again the "fix" is not to deal with the detonation but
make the gearcase bigger?:-) If they were not seriously trying to
deceive boaters again it would be genuinely funny:-)



The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3
emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the
inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly
atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication.

Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative
deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands???


You REALLY don't know me...

but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't
understand?

I'm happy to have my record on the understanding of ficht stacked
against any other "published" material you can find, this NG should also
be proud because despite it being a long & sometimes messy process we
predicted ficht failure before there was enough of them failing that the
dealers could no longer cover it up. Those dealers abused us for even
discussing the Ficht & of course the usual non boaters like Kruase etc
did their usual dealer groupy acts. Now you'll find others explaining
the risks of running lean at power & I'm glad of it.

K


Rob




K


Rob

"trainfan1" wrote in message
...
K. Smith wrote:
trainfan1 wrote:

K. Smith wrote:


That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your
"claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far)
you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made
the claimed 250HP (+),



On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor...


The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their
motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will
always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine
was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP.


a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's

was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque.



BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm...


I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant
if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but
when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to
still sell no matter what???

Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the
competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money
going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are
simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple
variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world
leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super
priced whipper snipper motors.

The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown
at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it
takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or
bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training
BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are
aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the
dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day long, till the
bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover
the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted
30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to
them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for resale price
maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective ficht engines
for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said they'd stop
selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc).

Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam &
nobody will say anything??



A name change doesn't clear the slate,



It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably
don't...


It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements"
are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough
that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??.

How does a treated bore stop detonation??

Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot spots
in the chamber.


How do high melting point pistons stop detonation???

Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot piston
centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens cylinder
temperatures reducing detonation.

Could you explain what "Endothermic friendly metallurgy" is?



How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation??

Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting
combustion/dieselingsyndrome, reducing detonation.

I thought they used TCW-3. Do they require some unusual oil to be
reliable?


How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough
atomisation to stop detonation???

It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation,
cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect
flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. The injector
system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of the
whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the injectors
should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good combustion,
and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the
compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to attain
stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete combustion.
This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

I didn't know gasoline absorbed that much heat when evaporating. Is this
really a significant factor?
And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do
sort of begs the question of what they actually do.

How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop
detonation??

This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation.

How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation??

Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT
all day long up on a jack plate...

Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack plates.
And they love WOT.


The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3
emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the
inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly
atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication.

Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative
deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands???

You REALLY don't know me...

but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't
understand?


Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better.

del

Del Cecchi wrote:

"trainfan1" wrote in message
...

K. Smith wrote:

trainfan1 wrote:


K. Smith wrote:


That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your
"claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far)
you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made
the claimed 250HP (+),



On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor...


The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their
motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will
always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine
was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP.


a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's


was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque.



BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm...


I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant
if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but
when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to
still sell no matter what???

Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the
competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money
going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are
simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple
variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world
leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super
priced whipper snipper motors.

The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown
at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it
takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or
bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training
BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are
aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the
dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day long, till the
bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover
the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted
30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to
them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for resale price
maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective ficht engines
for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said they'd stop
selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc).

Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam &
nobody will say anything??


A name change doesn't clear the slate,



It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably
don't...


It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements"
are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough
that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??.

How does a treated bore stop detonation??

Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot spots
in the chamber.


How do high melting point pistons stop detonation???

Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot piston
centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens cylinder
temperatures reducing detonation.


Could you explain what "Endothermic friendly metallurgy" is?

No.

Well, the alloy used in the pistons can absorb and transfer heat more
readily. If they had to, they could even go to ported pistons for even
more transfer.




How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation??

Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting
combustion/dieseling syndrome, reducing detonation.


I thought they used TCW-3. Do they require some unusual oil to be
reliable?

Only if you commit to it and have the engine rigged for it.



How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough
atomisation to stop detonation???

It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation,
cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect
flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. The injector
system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of the
whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the injectors
should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good combustion,
and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the
compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to attain
stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete combustion.
This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

I didn't know gasoline absorbed that much heat when evaporating. Is this
really a significant factor?

In 2 strokes it sure is. The fuel is part of the cooling system.

And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do
sort of begs the question of what they actually do.

Well, a 14.7:1 A/F Ratio is ideal, but not attainable in practice, as
there is not enough time in direct injection to vaporize the fuel. A 2
stroke will leave behind some exhaust gasses too. The injector must be
able to atomize the fuel into droplets small enough to approach vapor,
but large enough to absorb some of the heat of combustion. What E-Tec
is trying to do is minimize the losses associated with overlapping
strokes in 2 stroke design theory, while using as little fuel as
possible. The chamber design is very critical.


How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop
detonation??

This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation.

How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation??

Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT
all day long up on a jack plate...


Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack plates.
And they love WOT.

I just made that up.


The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3
emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the
inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly
atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication.

Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative
deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands???

You REALLY don't know me...

but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't
understand?



Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better.

del


I can see the dilemma and confusion K. Smith is facing, but the engines
do work. The BRP units are an improvement over the OMC offerings, which
did have isolated issues - as there are thousands still in use.