a bystanders view on the us noise that is made here
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...
Bill McKee wrote:
snip...
Sort of like Europe at the present time. Basically bankrupt. You can
not afford
the cradle to grave socialism. In 20 years there will only be something
like 2 working for
everyone on pension.
snip...

I don't think you can afford what your gov't is spending...
what was your deficit last year?
how much money does the US owe?

Not as much per capita as Europe, and it is the pensions and social costs
that have not yet come home to roost. As to overspending in the US, we have
been doing an exceptional job since Nixon left office. We did a pretty good
job before that, but after Nixon Congress got really good. And being a
fiscal conservative, I think it blows. Big time. And Congress with
campaign finance reform, made it nearly impossible to unseat an incumbent.

a bystanders view on the us noise that is made here
 

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 02:57:33 GMT, "Bill McKee"
wrote:

You report them as facts, so it is up to you to support your thesis.

What thesis. All I describe is what happened, in a positivistical way:
"what we all have seen happening".

The thesis "Reagan was the planner/key-player who set this in motion"
is a thesis. The self centered claiming of this "victory" as a
glorious result of Reagan policy and speeching is even an annoying
thesis with which the us actually loses appreciation, trust and
respect over here. It adds to the concept the us see themselves as the
centre of the universe.

Acknowleding Gorbatsjov was the key, the centre, is no more than
practicing sheer logic. What Reagan did was not vital, it may have
helped but was not the key cause of the ongoing development.

What I make of it is that the american means getting maximum political
gain of the Glasnost and Perestrojka that was the policy of
Gorbatsjow. Of course the economical power of the us has been a factor
that made russian leaders see that they would never keep up.

In the us analysis I see overexposure of the Reagan factor and
underestimating of the ongoing process of decline, production
problems, liberation-movements in the satellite states, etc.

A lot of americans here forget about these real causes and focus on
Reagans speech and really think America has stopped/won the cold war.
Maybe in order to say something good about a nitwit president from a
republican viewpoint but maybe it is even worse: a simplistic way of
looking at things, a monocausal explanation of historical processes
with an overexposure of the role of the us military and with an naieve
feeling the us can do this again wherever in the world.
I really feel this is a important factor in the lessening
understanding between the us and europe.

Regards, Len.

a bystanders view on the us noise that is made here
 

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 02:34:34 GMT, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"Len" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:01:59 -0400, " *JimH*" wrote:
But tell me, what was wrong with the series of facts I summed up?

The fact that they are not facts.

Oh well in that case: good luck with your education.
Regards, Len.

Strong return argument Len.

There is nothing to return arguments on Jim

According to you. Maybe you should increase your education. We have our
problems. Maybe we are the only superpower by default.

What does that make you and what rights do you give yourselves being
that "super"power.
In my view the us is like the tallest and strongest guy in the 4th
grade. When he was an intelligent guy, all went well. When it was a
boaster, the other children in the classroom had a problem.

Reagan spent for Star Wars, and Gorbachev was smart enough to know
he was bankrupt as a
country and had to accede to secondary status. Sort of like Europe at the
present time. Basically bankrupt. You can not afford the cradle to grave
socialism. In 20 years there will only be something like 2 working for
everyone on pension.
The French government recognizes this predicament, but
trying to increase the amount of years that the workers have to work before
retirement, is causing massive public workers strikes. How often does the
transport unions call a strike?
All west european countries are reforming social security.
But I'm glad there is social security for the elderly and lesser
priviledged. I think however flawed a particular system is, it's a
measure of civilisation.

Look at the anti-immigrant bias. The
killing of a publisher in your country by a Muslim. What are the after
affects? You are a morally bankrupt region in look what you let go on in
Serbia / Albania.
I choose living in Europe in stead of living in an
christian-fundamentalist dictated country where these christian values
without exception are carried out to the individual well being.
I believe you also have your problems with a radical islamitic belief
that practices what the prophet prescribes regarding infidels?
Well we have these people as neighbours. Do you have a "simple,
straightforward us remedy" for that?

My mom is 90 years old. Twice in her lifetime, your
region has let despots involve the world in massive wars. And you call
yourself superior?

You say I must upgrade my education but you need new glasses.
This really is a serious case of projection. I never called us
superior. It's exactly what I accuse the us of. You'd better think
about this. Allow me to quote myself:

"And....
"You don't have to point out the mistakes Europe makes.
"We don't know how to fight like the us does, we have a clown for
"president in Italy, a bookkeeper in Holland, a ventrilloquists doll
"in Britain... We have difficulty becoming a union. We know that -in
"order to maintain a certain level of civilisation- we have a system
"in which we help the lesser priviliged and off course there will be
"some abuse of that system
"but we see that's simply a part of the costs of civilisation.
"We accept being just one of the parties in the world and we're not a
"purely selfish, manipulating superpower.

But I guess also this discussion is chancing in mud throwing.
I note that you regard europe as socialist, selling chemical warfare
components, morally bankrupt.
I'm not that good in mud throwing.
You win and I salute you.

Regards, Len.

a bystanders view on the us noise that is made here
 

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 02:56:40 GMT, "Bill McKee"
wrote:

Actually the whole piece was bias.

It is useless to have a dialogue unless both parties are prepared to
listen, try to understand the opponents arguments and react to that in
a constructive way, both trying to make progress in insight.
In that light you might use my posts to have another look at the
certainties you think you have...
Regards and good luck, Len.

a bystanders view on the us noise that is made here
 

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:31:57 -0500, "Bert Robbins"
wrote:

The your sources are all biased opinion. Each news organization has a bias.
Each person writing an op-ed peice for a newspaper has a bias. Each
individual oberserving an event has a bias.
I agree.
But I can also think for myself. And I can use various sources with
various Bias's. And I am careful about interest that are persued
within the specific bias presented. That what every citizen should do
in my view.

In terms of who deserves the most credit it is unmistakenly
Gorbatsjov. Why is it there is such a need to blow up the part Reagan
played? Don't you think any president with a smart advisor would have
done not exactly the same but would have added in the same amount?

No, Reagan was the drivinig force in tearing down the iron curtain.
Well thank you. Now I don't have to think anymore. I just have to
repeat, Reagan was the driving force, Reagan was the driving force.

Let me put it in another way: What would have become of this alleged
"Reagan-directed-end-of-the-cold-war" if Gorbatsjow hadn't been there
but another Brenzjnev-type or Chroestjow-type?
A few more years and a few hundred thousand people behind the iron curtain
would be dead.
What would the amount of casualties be when Bush hadn't started war on
false pretences? Or am I using biased information?

As another poster here said, Reagan was in the car, he wasn't the
driver but he was in the car. I admit to that. But any us president
would have been in that car.
The winners write the history and the loosers complain about it. In the
future it will be read that Reagan won the cold war throught the economic
might of the USA and the democratic principles that it promoted. Fair or
unfair this is what history will see.
What is it with this obsession with winners and losers....

a bystanders view on the us noise that is made here
 

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:49:48 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Tamaroak wrote:
And if we had listened to Carter we sure as hell wouldn't be in the
pickle we are in today with most of the world hating our collective
guts. (And with good reason, I might add; we are the ugly Americans.)

We wouldn't have this chickenhawk AWOL deserter presidummy for one
thing. We might be somewhere on the road to self-sufficiency and
conservation regarding our energy needs, for another, instead of only
worrying how we can return value to the BP & Exxon shareholders.

This administration is a lot like others before them, only more stupid,
selfish and shortsighted.

Capt. Jeff


There's no doubt Bush sets the standard for stupid, selfish, and
shortsighted.


Presidummy Bush. Love it. But we're devolving into a nation of dummies.
Maybe a presidummy is all we deserve.

At the risk of your american nature telling you "away with this
european critique, on the first place I am an american": believe me,
you deserve more. Of course you deserve more.
Such a potential, such beautiful nature, such an amount of space, a
very sound filosophy re work, lot's of successes in science, lot's of
superb intellect, a bit centered on the coastal areas ok, but it's
there!

On top of that : the rest of the world deserves a sound us government
with vision how to exercise this single-superpower status in a lasting
way.

I still trust in the people of the us. They will overcome this minor
setback in the direction of the middle ages. I must say my trust is
constantly tested, also over here but it is still there... thanks to
people like you who make me sigh and think: happily there are usa-
citizens with an open mind, self-critique, and not infected with this
"if you ain't with us your against us" dogma.

Regards, Len.

a bystanders view on the us noise that is made here
 

"Len" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 02:34:34 GMT, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"Len" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:01:59 -0400, " *JimH*" wrote:
But tell me, what was wrong with the series of facts I summed up?

The fact that they are not facts.

Oh well in that case: good luck with your education.
Regards, Len.

Strong return argument Len.

There is nothing to return arguments on Jim

According to you. Maybe you should increase your education. We have our
problems. Maybe we are the only superpower by default.


snip

You win and I salute you.

Regards, Len.

Aren't you getting tired already of getting your ass kicked Len?

a bystanders view on the us noise that is made here
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...
Skipper wrote:
Actually, I asked you "Most of Canada a few miles north of the US
border
is desolate tundra. Would you rather that *fundamentalist* missile come
down on New York?"
So, is it remote tundra or New York where you'd prefer to see that
missile fall?
Skipper
I've been across the country a number of times, both flying and by
train. I've yet to see this tundra you keep talking about.

I've seen it on my trips to Aklavik, & Tuktoyaktuk. You also see on your
way to Iqaluit, on Baffin Island. I was there last year for a fishing trip.

The Tundra is way up North! I think Skipper has no idea of how large
Canada really is.
Jim

a bystanders view on the us noise that is made here
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
*JimH* wrote:
"Len" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 02:34:34 GMT, "Bill McKee"
wrote:

"Len" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:01:59 -0400, " *JimH*" wrote:
But tell me, what was wrong with the series of facts I summed up?

The fact that they are not facts.
Oh well in that case: good luck with your education.
Regards, Len.
Strong return argument Len.

There is nothing to return arguments on Jim
According to you. Maybe you should increase your education. We have
our
problems. Maybe we are the only superpower by default.

snip

You win and I salute you.

Regards, Len.

Aren't you getting tired already of getting your ass kicked Len?


Ass kicked? By who?

Old Len is a flyweight fighting in the heavyweight division. He has lost
every round so far yet keeps coming back for more. ;-)

a bystanders view on the us noise that is made here
 

Bert Robbins wrote:
Those are US companies doing a nice thing for our norther friends by
keeping
you employed.
No Bert. They are Canadian Companies that sell to the USA. Look it up.
Heroux-Devtek.