Billgran wrote:
"Tom Hooper" wrote in message
...

Looking to power a 17 to 19 shallow V scow bow open boat, ply or alum

(I

know it's noisy). I guess that means 4 stroke, 25 to 35 hp. Not going

off

shore, just rivers and swamps. Want to cruise around with scaring away

the

scenery or losing friends. Normally canoe, and love quiet watercraft.
Thanks.
Tom




Tom,

You might want to check out the Evinrude E-TEC outboards in the 40-50hp
class. They are as quiet as a 4 stroke, there is no smoke orof mixing oil,
they do not need expensive oil changes and ridiculously priced oil filters.
They also do not use rubber timing belts that could bend valves when they
break, and are expensive to replace. There are no valves to burn, rust or
stick, and they do not need the cost of labor and a gasket for periodic
adjustments.

They come with a full 3 year warranty that does not lower coverage after 1
year as with some other brands.

The E-TEC does not need any dealer service for 3 years or 300 hours in
regular use. Some 4 strokes need oil changes every 6 months, plus again for
the 10 hr. check.

They also carry the original Ficht design fault forward & will fail
just as Ficht did & for the very same reasons.

They will be quiet when the powerhead is destroyed by detonation, that
much might be correct:-)

Even if you were lucky enough to have one that runs Ok over time, you
will still suffer by having the value of your boat destroyed, just as
anyone who didn't listen, lost heaps of money in resale if their boat
has a Ficht attached.

Poor Bill has spammed this same line for years even at the height of
the Ficht failures, that brought OMC down he was still spruiking the Co
line, sad really sad, he isn't even embarrassed just so long as his
dealer has "your" money.


K



I've run these and am impressed with how quiet they are. They've been
produced since last year and are working well. One nice thing is that they
do not need a battery to run. They rope start within 1 revolution and the
ignition system does not need a battery to run like the 4 strokes do in
your horsepower range. If you are interested in clean air, the E-TECs have a
lower emission rating and emit fewer total emissions than the same size 4
stroke motor.

For more info, go to www.Evinrude.com

Bill Grannis
service manager

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:25:26 +1000, "K. Smith"
wrote:

Billgran wrote:
"Tom Hooper" wrote in message
...

Looking to power a 17 to 19 shallow V scow bow open boat, ply or alum

(I

know it's noisy). I guess that means 4 stroke, 25 to 35 hp. Not going

off

shore, just rivers and swamps. Want to cruise around with scaring away

the

scenery or losing friends. Normally canoe, and love quiet watercraft.
Thanks.
Tom




Tom,

You might want to check out the Evinrude E-TEC outboards in the 40-50hp
class. They are as quiet as a 4 stroke, there is no smoke orof mixing oil,
they do not need expensive oil changes and ridiculously priced oil filters.
They also do not use rubber timing belts that could bend valves when they
break, and are expensive to replace. There are no valves to burn, rust or
stick, and they do not need the cost of labor and a gasket for periodic
adjustments.

They come with a full 3 year warranty that does not lower coverage after 1
year as with some other brands.

The E-TEC does not need any dealer service for 3 years or 300 hours in
regular use. Some 4 strokes need oil changes every 6 months, plus again for
the 10 hr. check.

They also carry the original Ficht design fault forward & will fail
just as Ficht did & for the very same reasons.

Karen,

I don't know what your problem is with FICHT, but the last time I was
hanging around here, I saw the rants and was interested in your
opinion. However, it would appear that there is more to this than
just a good old rant, so allow me to present another side to your
apparent vitriol towards FICHT.

I have three of these doggies - a 1999 200 and two 2001 225s and nary
a problem - mechanical stuff, yes, but nothing that involved the FICHT
side of things. One was a busted fuel line which caused some
uncomfortable moments in the boat and one stator which failed and
honestly could have been my fault. In both cases the problems were
fixed quickly, quietly, no fuss, no muss and they didn't have to
because these are OMC engines, not Bombardier.

With respect to E-TEC, there's a lot of solid engineering time behind
E-TEC, there have been some important technical advances and from the
engines that I've run, mostly 50/70 hp on Polarkraft aluminum fishing
demo boats, I'm impressed. It would appear that the E-TEC produces
more shaft horsepower (meaning more horsepower at the prop), theya re
extremely quiet (more so than a four stroke in my opinion), quick
throttle response and exceptionally clean burning (according to the
specs - I don't own a spectrometer). I think Bill can produce the
actual figures, but just based on my own seat-of-the-pants former
engineer gut feeling, it beats the hell out of anything I've ridden in
including some of the bigger competing engines from Merc. I say that
because I was privileged to attend a dealer meeting (I am not
affliated with any dealer - I just happen to know a couple socially)
where some big engine comparison rides were offered - E-TEC is the
engine of the future.

I'm sure there will be problems along the way once these get into the
main consumer stream, but that's true of any engine. I've already
heard about some Verado quirks that will make your hair curl, but I
can't speak to them directly - this was strictly second hand info. So
far, I haven't heard much about the E-TECs other than my first hand
experience with them which was around 35 hours with a 40 and about 30
hours with a 70.

Just a counter argument - I'm happy with my FICHTs and when I get
ready for an engine change on the Contender, which may happen this
year, I will be using E-TECS strictly based on the performance of the
FICHTs that I have currently installed.

I am one happy, contented and very impressed FICHT owner, user and
abuser. :)

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
-----------
"Angling may be said to be so
like the mathematics that it
can never be fully learnt..."

Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:25:26 +1000, "K. Smith"
wrote:

Billgran wrote:
"Tom Hooper" wrote in message
...

Looking to power a 17 to 19 shallow V scow bow open boat, ply or alum

(I

know it's noisy). I guess that means 4 stroke, 25 to 35 hp. Not going

off

shore, just rivers and swamps. Want to cruise around with scaring away

the

scenery or losing friends. Normally canoe, and love quiet watercraft.
Thanks.
Tom




Tom,

You might want to check out the Evinrude E-TEC outboards in the 40-50hp
class. They are as quiet as a 4 stroke, there is no smoke orof mixing oil,
they do not need expensive oil changes and ridiculously priced oil filters.
They also do not use rubber timing belts that could bend valves when they
break, and are expensive to replace. There are no valves to burn, rust or
stick, and they do not need the cost of labor and a gasket for periodic
adjustments.

They come with a full 3 year warranty that does not lower coverage after 1
year as with some other brands.

The E-TEC does not need any dealer service for 3 years or 300 hours in
regular use. Some 4 strokes need oil changes every 6 months, plus again for
the 10 hr. check.

They also carry the original Ficht design fault forward & will fail
just as Ficht did & for the very same reasons.

Karen,

I don't know what your problem is with FICHT, but the last time I was
hanging around here, I saw the rants and was interested in your
opinion. However, it would appear that there is more to this than
just a good old rant, so allow me to present another side to your
apparent vitriol towards FICHT.

I have three of these doggies - a 1999 200 and two 2001 225s and nary
a problem - mechanical stuff, yes, but nothing that involved the FICHT
side of things. One was a busted fuel line which caused some
uncomfortable moments in the boat and one stator which failed and
honestly could have been my fault. In both cases the problems were
fixed quickly, quietly, no fuss, no muss and they didn't have to
because these are OMC engines, not Bombardier.

With respect to E-TEC, there's a lot of solid engineering time behind
E-TEC, there have been some important technical advances and from the
engines that I've run, mostly 50/70 hp on Polarkraft aluminum fishing
demo boats, I'm impressed. It would appear that the E-TEC produces
more shaft horsepower (meaning more horsepower at the prop), theya re
extremely quiet (more so than a four stroke in my opinion), quick
throttle response and exceptionally clean burning (according to the
specs - I don't own a spectrometer). I think Bill can produce the
actual figures, but just based on my own seat-of-the-pants former
engineer gut feeling, it beats the hell out of anything I've ridden in
including some of the bigger competing engines from Merc. I say that
because I was privileged to attend a dealer meeting (I am not
affliated with any dealer - I just happen to know a couple socially)
where some big engine comparison rides were offered - E-TEC is the
engine of the future.

I'm sure there will be problems along the way once these get into the
main consumer stream, but that's true of any engine. I've already
heard about some Verado quirks that will make your hair curl, but I
can't speak to them directly - this was strictly second hand info. So
far, I haven't heard much about the E-TECs other than my first hand
experience with them which was around 35 hours with a 40 and about 30
hours with a 70.

Just a counter argument - I'm happy with my FICHTs and when I get
ready for an engine change on the Contender, which may happen this
year, I will be using E-TECS strictly based on the performance of the
FICHTs that I have currently installed.

I am one happy, contented and very impressed FICHT owner, user and
abuser. :)

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
-----------
"Angling may be said to be so
like the mathematics that it
can never be fully learnt..."

Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653


In Karen Smith's mind, Tom, you're a liar and your experience is all a
fabrication.

I haven't seen A Verado yet...or heard anything about them. And I just
learned Yamaha has boosted its F225 to make an F250 available.



--
A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush;
A vote for Bush is a vote for Apocalypse.

Harry, there was a tiller option for the 40 and 45 HP Merc Thunderbolt 4's
too.

I've seen a few.

-W

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Billgran wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...





A tiller 40 hp? Is there some sort of steering assist built into it?




Harry,

Up north in walleye country there are a lot of V4 tiller rigs in use on
the
back of 18-20' boats.

Bill Grannis
service manager



Wow....the biggest tiller motor I ever drove was a 25 hp Big Twin in the
1950s, and it was a bear.

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:25:26 +1000, "K. Smith"
wrote:


Billgran wrote:

"Tom Hooper" wrote in message
...


Looking to power a 17 to 19 shallow V scow bow open boat, ply or alum

(I


know it's noisy). I guess that means 4 stroke, 25 to 35 hp. Not going

off


shore, just rivers and swamps. Want to cruise around with scaring away

the


scenery or losing friends. Normally canoe, and love quiet watercraft.
Thanks.
Tom




Tom,

You might want to check out the Evinrude E-TEC outboards in the 40-50hp
class. They are as quiet as a 4 stroke, there is no smoke orof mixing oil,
they do not need expensive oil changes and ridiculously priced oil filters.
They also do not use rubber timing belts that could bend valves when they
break, and are expensive to replace. There are no valves to burn, rust or
stick, and they do not need the cost of labor and a gasket for periodic
adjustments.

They come with a full 3 year warranty that does not lower coverage after 1
year as with some other brands.

The E-TEC does not need any dealer service for 3 years or 300 hours in
regular use. Some 4 strokes need oil changes every 6 months, plus again for
the 10 hr. check.

They also carry the original Ficht design fault forward & will fail
just as Ficht did & for the very same reasons.


Karen,

I don't know what your problem is with FICHT, but the last time I was
hanging around here, I saw the rants and was interested in your
opinion. However, it would appear that there is more to this than
just a good old rant, so allow me to present another side to your
apparent vitriol towards FICHT.

Always pleased & thanks.


I have three of these doggies - a 1999 200 and two 2001 225s and nary
a problem - mechanical stuff, yes, but nothing that involved the FICHT
side of things. One was a busted fuel line which caused some
uncomfortable moments in the boat and one stator which failed and
honestly could have been my fault. In both cases the problems were
fixed quickly, quietly, no fuss, no muss and they didn't have to
because these are OMC engines, not Bombardier.

So I'm glad for you indeed you are amongst the majority of Ficht owners
who are happy. OMC itself claimed 4 outta 5 were OK so you are in that
80% of engines which have survived & again I'm glad for you.


With respect to E-TEC, there's a lot of solid engineering time behind
E-TEC, there have been some important technical advances

No there hasn't Tom, don't fall for BS, they have used higher melting
point alloy in the pistons (why?? is the real question), a different
entry for the oil injection, (again missing the real question) & the
rest is just more of the same, tinkering at the margins hoping against
hope that this time it might work, trouble is it can't.

and from the
engines that I've run, mostly 50/70 hp on Polarkraft aluminum fishing
demo boats, I'm impressed. It would appear that the E-TEC produces
more shaft horsepower (meaning more horsepower at the prop)

Which is even more scary, it's at higher specific outputs (HP/ltr) that
they're at even more risk of detonation damage, caused by the piston
heat buildup when they've been running at their lean mode.

, theya re
extremely quiet (more so than a four stroke in my opinion),

This is not a big issue & OMCs have always been quieter than others,
but so what?? I have 65-80HP diesel OBs that have very low exhaust noise
(NB I'm only talking exhaust) it's certainly not worth risking an engine
nor you boat's resale over.

quick
throttle response

Tom this is magazine dreamers stuff, 2 strokes are ..... well 2 strokes:-)

and exceptionally clean burning (according to the
specs - I don't own a spectrometer).

This has been their claims yet so what all the engines claim to meet
2006 so that's it as far as you the user are concerned, you have no clue
or even means of finding out.

I think Bill can produce the
actual figures, but just based on my own seat-of-the-pants former
engineer gut feeling, it beats the hell out of anything I've ridden in
including some of the bigger competing engines from Merc. I say that
because I was privileged to attend a dealer meeting (I am not
affliated with any dealer - I just happen to know a couple socially)
where some big engine comparison rides were offered - E-TEC is the
engine of the future.

E tec is Ficht DFI injection renamed probably because they realised the
public would never fall for the same old Ficht lies a 3rd time. It's a
dead end technology & was even before OMC got it from the Germans who
had been hawking it around the motor industry for years & the "real"
engine builders all politely said no thanks. Pity they didn't just tell
them that lean mixtures are dangerous to engine longevity.


I'm sure there will be problems along the way once these get into the
main consumer stream, but that's true of any engine.

Gee it seems if "ANY" of the others had a failure rate or 1 in 5 we
would have heard about it, the only others to come close were Opti &
surprise surprise they had the same 2 stroke lean mixture crap, as with
ficht the same hawked around for years & all the big engine makers just
laughed; as they should.

I've already
heard about some Verado quirks that will make your hair curl, but I
can't speak to them directly - this was strictly second hand info.

Yes yes we understand you OMC dealers never want to say too much but
nod nod wink wink:-) give it up!!!! you even tried to say Merc Optis
were "as bad" as Ficht at one stage, anything to make a sale hey??

So
far, I haven't heard much about the E-TECs other than my first hand
experience with them which was around 35 hours with a 40 and about 30
hours with a 70.

This "I know of one that didn't fail" testimonial; crap is just that
crap, it's the quiet owner who has his boating ruined by a design fault
& worse a known design fault that is the real issue, & yes they're in a
minority but if so what. Can you image if one in 5 GMs fsailed??? there
would be a huge govt mandated recall as I say there should be this time
with E tec, because this time you can't argue it's the EPA's or anyone
elses' fault.

Just a counter argument - I'm happy with my FICHTs and when I get
ready for an engine change on the Contender, which may happen this
year, I will be using E-TECS strictly based on the performance of the
FICHTs that I have currently installed.

From your "friend" the E-tec dealer??? Come on Tom even if your engines
haven't failed your boat resale is shot, so this is some expensive
friend you have, unless it's your imaginary marketing friend???

I am one happy, contented and very impressed FICHT owner, user and
abuser. :)

Later,

Don't leave it too late, they don't go for long:-)

K


Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
-----------
"Angling may be said to be so
like the mathematics that it
can never be fully learnt..."

Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:35:03 +1000, "K. Smith"
wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:25:26 +1000, "K. Smith"
wrote:


Billgran wrote:

"Tom Hooper" wrote in message
...


Looking to power a 17 to 19 shallow V scow bow open boat, ply or alum

~~ snippity do da ~~

E tec is Ficht DFI injection renamed probably because they realised the
public would never fall for the same old Ficht lies a 3rd time. It's a
dead end technology & was even before OMC got it from the Germans who
had been hawking it around the motor industry for years & the "real"
engine builders all politely said no thanks. Pity they didn't just tell
them that lean mixtures are dangerous to engine longevity.

Well, here's the thing of it - the '99 I have has over 600 hours on it
and the twin 225s have about 800 - both relatively hard use - seems to
work for me and I'm just some schumck with a couple of boats.

I'm sure there will be problems along the way once these get into the
main consumer stream, but that's true of any engine.

Gee it seems if "ANY" of the others had a failure rate or 1 in 5 we
would have heard about it, the only others to come close were Opti &
surprise surprise they had the same 2 stroke lean mixture crap, as with
ficht the same hawked around for years & all the big engine makers just
laughed; as they should.

You mentioned that the last time and I've been looking around - I
can't seem to find this 1 in 5 failure rate documented anywhere. Can
you provide me a reference to this that I can look at? I know that
the failure rate for the midrange (100-150) engines was high, but 1 in
5? I'm not sure of that.

I've already
heard about some Verado quirks that will make your hair curl, but I
can't speak to them directly - this was strictly second hand info.

Yes yes we understand you OMC dealers never want to say too much but
nod nod wink wink:-) give it up!!!! you even tried to say Merc Optis
were "as bad" as Ficht at one stage, anything to make a sale hey??

Um....I'm not a OMC or Bombardier dealer. In fact, I don't know any
Bombarbier "dealers" per se other than the local guy who handles
Yamaha/Mercury and is a Bombardier servicing dealer. He services my
engines. The other guy I know sells Ferritti Group yachts like
Bertrams and such and sells packaged inflatables that may or may not
have Bombardier engine on them.

I'm just a user and I'm trying to understand this apparent problem you
have with FICHT - that's it.

So
far, I haven't heard much about the E-TECs other than my first hand
experience with them which was around 35 hours with a 40 and about 30
hours with a 70.

This "I know of one that didn't fail" testimonial; crap is just that
crap, it's the quiet owner who has his boating ruined by a design fault
& worse a known design fault that is the real issue, & yes they're in a
minority but if so what. Can you image if one in 5 GMs fsailed??? there
would be a huge govt mandated recall as I say there should be this time
with E tec, because this time you can't argue it's the EPA's or anyone
elses' fault.

Show me - give me a reference about this one-in-five fail rate. Even
with the mid-range engine problems they had, I don't believe it was 1
in 5.

Just a counter argument - I'm happy with my FICHTs and when I get
ready for an engine change on the Contender, which may happen this
year, I will be using E-TECS strictly based on the performance of the
FICHTs that I have currently installed.

From your "friend" the E-tec dealer??? Come on Tom even if your engines
haven't failed your boat resale is shot, so this is some expensive
friend you have, unless it's your imaginary marketing friend???

Excuse me - you know nothing about me, my life, my friends, social or
business - just as I don't know anything about you other than what you
put here on this screen. You can't accuse me of anything other than
defending my choice of power.

I am one happy, contented and very impressed FICHT owner, user and
abuser. :)

Don't leave it too late, they don't go for long:-)

600+ on the '99 200 and just under 800 on the '01 225 twins and still
going strong.

I have the 200C Ranger up for sale and have a current offer, with a
deposit and everything, just under what I originally paid for it and
minus the electronics package I put on it. I'm just waiting for my
new 2300 Bay Ranger to be delivered in September. And that boat is
going to have a FICHT on it - 225 in fact.

As to the Contender, I wouldn't sell it on a bet because I love the
boat. However, I have it looked over by a public adjuster with marine
experience every year for total replacement cost and you know what?
If the boat sank tomorrow, it's "true" value is 12% below what I paid
for it - not bad for a two year old boat that is used on a regular
basis. And that's without the electronics and equipment package which
is insured on a seperate policy.

So much for the diiminished resale argument.

However, to give you some outs, this is only my experience with the
FICHT. I have talked to other FICHT owners and they seem content with
their engines. Small sample to be sure, but these are folks in my
circle who are fairly knowledgable with a lot of experience with
outboards.

If you have reference to actual facts - as in actual numbers, types of
failures, recalls, etc - I would appreciate seeing them.

Always open to seeing and evaluating all the evidence.

Later,

Tom

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:35:03 +1000, "K. Smith"
wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:25:26 +1000, "K. Smith"
wrote:


Billgran wrote:

"Tom Hooper" wrote in message
...


Looking to power a 17 to 19 shallow V scow bow open boat, ply or alum

~~ snippity do da ~~

E tec is Ficht DFI injection renamed probably because they realised the
public would never fall for the same old Ficht lies a 3rd time. It's a
dead end technology & was even before OMC got it from the Germans who
had been hawking it around the motor industry for years & the "real"
engine builders all politely said no thanks. Pity they didn't just tell
them that lean mixtures are dangerous to engine longevity.

Well, here's the thing of it - the '99 I have has over 600 hours on it
and the twin 225s have about 800 - both relatively hard use - seems to
work for me and I'm just some schumck with a couple of boats.

I'm sure there will be problems along the way once these get into the
main consumer stream, but that's true of any engine.

Gee it seems if "ANY" of the others had a failure rate or 1 in 5 we
would have heard about it, the only others to come close were Opti &
surprise surprise they had the same 2 stroke lean mixture crap, as with
ficht the same hawked around for years & all the big engine makers just
laughed; as they should.

You mentioned that the last time and I've been looking around - I
can't seem to find this 1 in 5 failure rate documented anywhere. Can
you provide me a reference to this that I can look at? I know that
the failure rate for the midrange (100-150) engines was high, but 1 in
5? I'm not sure of that.

I've already
heard about some Verado quirks that will make your hair curl, but I
can't speak to them directly - this was strictly second hand info.

Yes yes we understand you OMC dealers never want to say too much but
nod nod wink wink:-) give it up!!!! you even tried to say Merc Optis
were "as bad" as Ficht at one stage, anything to make a sale hey??

Um....I'm not a OMC or Bombardier dealer. In fact, I don't know any
Bombarbier "dealers" per se other than the local guy who handles
Yamaha/Mercury and is a Bombardier servicing dealer. He services my
engines. The other guy I know sells Ferritti Group yachts like
Bertrams and such and sells packaged inflatables that may or may not
have Bombardier engine on them.

I'm just a user and I'm trying to understand this apparent problem you
have with FICHT - that's it.

So
far, I haven't heard much about the E-TECs other than my first hand
experience with them which was around 35 hours with a 40 and about 30
hours with a 70.

This "I know of one that didn't fail" testimonial; crap is just that
crap, it's the quiet owner who has his boating ruined by a design fault
& worse a known design fault that is the real issue, & yes they're in a
minority but if so what. Can you image if one in 5 GMs fsailed??? there
would be a huge govt mandated recall as I say there should be this time
with E tec, because this time you can't argue it's the EPA's or anyone
elses' fault.

Show me - give me a reference about this one-in-five fail rate. Even
with the mid-range engine problems they had, I don't believe it was 1
in 5.

Just a counter argument - I'm happy with my FICHTs and when I get
ready for an engine change on the Contender, which may happen this
year, I will be using E-TECS strictly based on the performance of the
FICHTs that I have currently installed.

From your "friend" the E-tec dealer??? Come on Tom even if your engines
haven't failed your boat resale is shot, so this is some expensive
friend you have, unless it's your imaginary marketing friend???

Excuse me - you know nothing about me, my life, my friends, social or
business - just as I don't know anything about you other than what you
put here on this screen. You can't accuse me of anything other than
defending my choice of power.

I am one happy, contented and very impressed FICHT owner, user and
abuser. :)

Don't leave it too late, they don't go for long:-)

600+ on the '99 200 and just under 800 on the '01 225 twins and still
going strong.

I have the 200C Ranger up for sale and have a current offer, with a
deposit and everything, just under what I originally paid for it and
minus the electronics package I put on it. I'm just waiting for my
new 2300 Bay Ranger to be delivered in September. And that boat is
going to have a FICHT on it - 225 in fact.

As to the Contender, I wouldn't sell it on a bet because I love the
boat. However, I have it looked over by a public adjuster with marine
experience every year for total replacement cost and you know what?
If the boat sank tomorrow, it's "true" value is 12% below what I paid
for it - not bad for a two year old boat that is used on a regular
basis. And that's without the electronics and equipment package which
is insured on a seperate policy.

So much for the diiminished resale argument.

However, to give you some outs, this is only my experience with the
FICHT. I have talked to other FICHT owners and they seem content with
their engines. Small sample to be sure, but these are folks in my
circle who are fairly knowledgable with a lot of experience with
outboards.

If you have reference to actual facts - as in actual numbers, types of
failures, recalls, etc - I would appreciate seeing them.

Always open to seeing and evaluating all the evidence.

Later,

Tom


You're arguing with a junk-yard dog here, Tom. She's not worth the trouble.

--
A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush;
A vote for Bush is a vote for Apocalypse.

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:33:21 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:


You're arguing with a junk-yard dog here, Tom. She's not worth the trouble.

I'm always willing to give anyone their shots - I just demand a
certain level of civility and common sense. If it's a 20% failure
rate, then I want to know (1) how the data was developed (2) was it
all related to FICHT or were there other mechanical/electrical
problems (3) what evidence is there available that E-TEC is just FICHT
under a different guise? In short, prove it.

I have a lot of money sunk into boats and I spendt a lot of time
researching potential power sources for my repower. The problems with
OMC are not relevant to Bombardier and E-TEC - if Karen has evidence
contrary to that, then I want to see it. It's is certainly contrary
to what I have learned about the technology.

Just trying to be a gentleman about it. :)

Later,

Tom

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:33:21 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:


You're arguing with a junk-yard dog here, Tom. She's not worth the trouble.

I'm always willing to give anyone their shots - I just demand a
certain level of civility and common sense. If it's a 20% failure
rate, then I want to know (1) how the data was developed (2) was it
all related to FICHT or were there other mechanical/electrical
problems (3) what evidence is there available that E-TEC is just FICHT
under a different guise? In short, prove it.


My recollection is that there is no such data. The number came about as
a result of an off the cuff remark by a an executive of a company that
formerly owned OMC (Evinrude and Johnson) manufacturing, and it applied
to a particular model in a particular model year. In other words, it was
a quick, unqualified statement by someone who might have known, but
never released any data one way or the other. Ms. Smith took this
statement as a mantra, and has regurgitated it about a million times
since. She has no data, she has never even seen the insides of any of
these engines.

For some time, Ms. Smith claimed to be "the manufacturer" of a diesel
outboard motor line. That's bull****. All she manufactures is innuendo.



I have a lot of money sunk into boats and I spendt a lot of time
researching potential power sources for my repower. The problems with
OMC are not relevant to Bombardier and E-TEC - if Karen has evidence
contrary to that, then I want to see it. It's is certainly contrary
to what I have learned about the technology.

Just trying to be a gentleman about it. :)

If you get down with Karen Smith, she'll cover you with manure, or at
least try to do so.



Later,

Tom


--
A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush;
A vote for Bush is a vote for Apocalypse.

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
snipped


E tec is Ficht DFI injection renamed probably because they realised the
public would never fall for the same old Ficht lies a 3rd time. It's a
dead end technology & was even before OMC got it from the Germans who
had been hawking it around the motor industry for years & the "real"
engine builders all politely said no thanks. Pity they didn't just tell
them that lean mixtures are dangerous to engine longevity.


Well, here's the thing of it - the '99 I have has over 600 hours on it
and the twin 225s have about 800 - both relatively hard use - seems to
work for me and I'm just some schumck with a couple of boats.

Tom,

I don't doubt for a minute yours have been OK, but that doesn't mean
anything as to whether the technology is a success or not, given it
brought a US icon Co from the very beginning of OBs to an end, chucked
7000 out of work & lost 1.3 Bil of union pension money I think even your
600 hrs won't undo the reality of an untested, design fault being put to
the public for them to pay for the testing.


snipped


You mentioned that the last time and I've been looking around - I
can't seem to find this 1 in 5 failure rate documented anywhere. Can
you provide me a reference to this that I can look at? I know that
the failure rate for the midrange (100-150) engines was high, but 1 in
5? I'm not sure of that.

The head boss of OMC made the statement when they were trying to spruik
that everything had been fixed in 99, alas it sucked a few more punters
in & the failure rates were never mentioned again, you'd think they
would have said hey we halved them!!! it's "only" 1 in 10 now :-)

They didn't because it can't work, if it had a snowball's chance the
big engine people, even just one of them, would have been serious about
it, none were & their engineers were proven totally correct as we have:-).


snipped


I'm just a user and I'm trying to understand this apparent problem you
have with FICHT - that's it.

The "problem" is that to get a port transferred 2 stroke through the
EPA they have to:

(i) Run very lean mixtures at low to mid revs so lean that in normal
premises they wouldn't even reliably ignite.

(ii) To even get ignition of such lean mixtures they use 2 tactics
(a) Multiple firing of the plug (proof that the mixture is extremely
lean) &
(b) They very low pressure (read poor atomisation = detonation) Direct
inject the fuel "almost" (NB they were so dumb in the early models there
was no "almost"!!!) at the plug so it might ignite, they pretend this is
a "stratified" charge, but like all previous attempts to reliably
maintain a stratified charge it doesn't stratify as intended often
enough not to be reliable.

(iii) Lean mixtures so long as they can actually be ignited, are a known
source of chamber temp buildup, (the flame front is slow because the
fuel is not evenly spread throughout the charge) even the dealer
socalled mechanics know that if a carbed engine gets a partially blocked
jet that cyl will run lean, get hot, once hot enough the charge will
auto ignite (petrol auto ignites if in contact with anything over about
250C, not very hot, yes Tom??) & self sustaining detonation will set in
making more heat more detonation, more heat etc etc etc, bang.

(iv) There was some confusion at first because the typical failure set
was when the boat was at power, however this was because the low to med.
speed mixtures are so lean in Ficht (& opti) that there isn't enough
fuel to even support detonation!!!, in normal premises a Ficht would
stop save they repeatedly fire the plugs (no wonder they're expensive &
still have a short life:-))

(v) The answer is that although they can't support detonation at low
revs they can still build heat in the chamber, particularly the
piston/rings, so when the user spools up & suddenly delivers a full
normal "rich" mixture there are parts of the chamber well above 250C & a
cyl or two lapse into uncontrollable detonation; the powerhead is
wrecked in seconds.

(vi) If you doubt that lean mixture heat buildup is the problem you
should consider they're own desperate telling actions
(a) Same engines, same production, same parts, same power outputs
carbed vs DFI: the carbed engines are still plodding on, dirty EPA wise
but reliable, the very same engines fitted with DFI kaboom.
(b) You need a "special" dealer only ripoff price high temp oil for
the DFI engines, why??? is there really a temp problem??? how?? where
from?? after all it's the same as the carbed or EFI engine??
(c) Given the importance of precise spark timing & the effort all the
manufacturers go to get it just right, how is it that it suddenly
doesn't matter a hoot in the DFI??? I mean they just leave the plug
firing away till some lean bit of mixture finally catches, but even then
they leave it firing!!!! This is very telling as to the lean stratified
fairytale Tom. Again keep asking why the carbed same engine same factory
same parts, same HP/ltr etc etc geee it only needs one flash, that's one
flash of the plug, to ignite the charge.
(d) The best so far??? is that the new E-tecs are trying to say they
are "better" because they use higher melting point alloy in the
pistons!!! What an unbelievable admission, what confirmation that
whoever signs the cheques (do they even still use cheques??) is being
fed BS by probably the original pack of OMC BS'rs. Long long before
standard garden variety aluminium is even looking hot (melts over
600C!!!) the engine is in terminal detonation, because as soon as the
piston (or anything else in there) gets above 250C the game is over. Yes
the wrecked powerheads have melted pistons etc but that's the outcome of
uncontrollable detonation not the cause. Damn just how bloody stupid are
these people?? & can the cheque signer even breath unassisted???




So

far, I haven't heard much about the E-TECs other than my first hand
experience with them which was around 35 hours with a 40 and about 30
hours with a 70.

That's alot of hours Tom:-), those of us who really do boat will
confirm, hmmm bit of a worry don't go all Harry on us:-) Sounds like
you're trying the sell!! sell!! sell!!!


This "I know of one that didn't fail" testimonial; crap is just that
crap, it's the quiet owner who has his boating ruined by a design fault
& worse a known design fault that is the real issue, & yes they're in a
minority but if so what. Can you image if one in 5 GMs failed??? there
would be a huge govt mandated recall as I say there should be this time
with E tec, because this time you can't argue it's the EPA's or anyone
elses' fault.


Show me - give me a reference about this one-in-five fail rate. Even
with the mid-range engine problems they had, I don't believe it was 1
in 5.

It was straight from the head of OMC & confirmed by the NG OMC dealers
of the time, not that they tell or could even recognise the truth:-)


snipped


600+ on the '99 200 and just under 800 on the '01 225 twins and still
going strong.

Not really relevant Tom sorry, 2 stroke OBs are gone & good riddance.
Buy more at your own risk it's your money & now you are aware of the
risk I have no trouble.


I have the 200C Ranger up for sale and have a current offer, with a
deposit and everything, just under what I originally paid for it and
minus the electronics package I put on it. I'm just waiting for my
new 2300 Bay Ranger to be delivered in September. And that boat is
going to have a FICHT on it - 225 in fact.

Yes yes you're the usual seller, claiming this & that, in general any
boat with a Ficht or it's derivatives is & will always be devalued, for
good reason.


As to the Contender, I wouldn't sell it on a bet because I love the
boat. However, I have it looked over by a public adjuster with marine
experience every year for total replacement cost and you know what?
If the boat sank tomorrow, it's "true" value is 12% below what I paid
for it - not bad for a two year old boat that is used on a regular
basis. And that's without the electronics and equipment package which
is insured on a seperate policy.

Dear dear dear just keep paying those premiums based on that value then
Tom, wow you really are a dealers dream!!!


So much for the diiminished resale argument.

Yep so much it's sad.

However, to give you some outs, this is only my experience with the
FICHT. I have talked to other FICHT owners and they seem content with
their engines. Small sample to be sure, but these are folks in my
circle who are fairly knowledgable with a lot of experience with
outboards.

Honestly Tom where do you find them?? around here the only boats left
with Ficht on them are usually in the hands of dealers, telling the
usual lies to try & unload them. There were lots of people taken in in
the early times & they were pretty common, but seriously given the
claimed numbers sold, where the hell did they all go?? you rarely see a
Ficht powered boat these days, is it the same there??? Where does the
picture go when you turn off the telly??

If you have reference to actual facts - as in actual numbers, types of
failures, recalls, etc - I would appreciate seeing them.

OMC were never going to help with that, they just kept changing endless
blown powerheads & hoping the govt wouldn't make them do a full recall,
offering the dealers a 30% markup if they just kept selling defective
engines & dealers being what they are were only too happy to do that:-)
till they ran out of money; well till the union pension funds ran out
that is:-)

Always open to seeing and evaluating all the evidence.

There's plenty above to discuss, I look forward to it & thanks.

You are pushing it uphill with a piece of string though Tom, Yamaha
have all but given up on the DFI 2 strokes, Merc most certainly have, a
few smaller Japanese are left but in general terms the real
manufacturers have voted with their feet, or legs:-) whatever:-)

K


Later,

Tom