Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
snipped


E tec is Ficht DFI injection renamed probably because they realised the
public would never fall for the same old Ficht lies a 3rd time. It's a
dead end technology & was even before OMC got it from the Germans who
had been hawking it around the motor industry for years & the "real"
engine builders all politely said no thanks. Pity they didn't just tell
them that lean mixtures are dangerous to engine longevity.


Well, here's the thing of it - the '99 I have has over 600 hours on it
and the twin 225s have about 800 - both relatively hard use - seems to
work for me and I'm just some schumck with a couple of boats.

Tom,

I don't doubt for a minute yours have been OK, but that doesn't mean
anything as to whether the technology is a success or not, given it
brought a US icon Co from the very beginning of OBs to an end, chucked
7000 out of work & lost 1.3 Bil of union pension money I think even your
600 hrs won't undo the reality of an untested, design fault being put to
the public for them to pay for the testing.


snipped


You mentioned that the last time and I've been looking around - I
can't seem to find this 1 in 5 failure rate documented anywhere. Can
you provide me a reference to this that I can look at? I know that
the failure rate for the midrange (100-150) engines was high, but 1 in
5? I'm not sure of that.

The head boss of OMC made the statement when they were trying to spruik
that everything had been fixed in 99, alas it sucked a few more punters
in & the failure rates were never mentioned again, you'd think they
would have said hey we halved them!!! it's "only" 1 in 10 now :-)

They didn't because it can't work, if it had a snowball's chance the
big engine people, even just one of them, would have been serious about
it, none were & their engineers were proven totally correct as we have:-).


snipped


I'm just a user and I'm trying to understand this apparent problem you
have with FICHT - that's it.

The "problem" is that to get a port transferred 2 stroke through the
EPA they have to:

(i) Run very lean mixtures at low to mid revs so lean that in normal
premises they wouldn't even reliably ignite.

(ii) To even get ignition of such lean mixtures they use 2 tactics
(a) Multiple firing of the plug (proof that the mixture is extremely
lean) &
(b) They very low pressure (read poor atomisation = detonation) Direct
inject the fuel "almost" (NB they were so dumb in the early models there
was no "almost"!!!) at the plug so it might ignite, they pretend this is
a "stratified" charge, but like all previous attempts to reliably
maintain a stratified charge it doesn't stratify as intended often
enough not to be reliable.

(iii) Lean mixtures so long as they can actually be ignited, are a known
source of chamber temp buildup, (the flame front is slow because the
fuel is not evenly spread throughout the charge) even the dealer
socalled mechanics know that if a carbed engine gets a partially blocked
jet that cyl will run lean, get hot, once hot enough the charge will
auto ignite (petrol auto ignites if in contact with anything over about
250C, not very hot, yes Tom??) & self sustaining detonation will set in
making more heat more detonation, more heat etc etc etc, bang.

(iv) There was some confusion at first because the typical failure set
was when the boat was at power, however this was because the low to med.
speed mixtures are so lean in Ficht (& opti) that there isn't enough
fuel to even support detonation!!!, in normal premises a Ficht would
stop save they repeatedly fire the plugs (no wonder they're expensive &
still have a short life:-))

(v) The answer is that although they can't support detonation at low
revs they can still build heat in the chamber, particularly the
piston/rings, so when the user spools up & suddenly delivers a full
normal "rich" mixture there are parts of the chamber well above 250C & a
cyl or two lapse into uncontrollable detonation; the powerhead is
wrecked in seconds.

(vi) If you doubt that lean mixture heat buildup is the problem you
should consider they're own desperate telling actions
(a) Same engines, same production, same parts, same power outputs
carbed vs DFI: the carbed engines are still plodding on, dirty EPA wise
but reliable, the very same engines fitted with DFI kaboom.
(b) You need a "special" dealer only ripoff price high temp oil for
the DFI engines, why??? is there really a temp problem??? how?? where
from?? after all it's the same as the carbed or EFI engine??
(c) Given the importance of precise spark timing & the effort all the
manufacturers go to get it just right, how is it that it suddenly
doesn't matter a hoot in the DFI??? I mean they just leave the plug
firing away till some lean bit of mixture finally catches, but even then
they leave it firing!!!! This is very telling as to the lean stratified
fairytale Tom. Again keep asking why the carbed same engine same factory
same parts, same HP/ltr etc etc geee it only needs one flash, that's one
flash of the plug, to ignite the charge.
(d) The best so far??? is that the new E-tecs are trying to say they
are "better" because they use higher melting point alloy in the
pistons!!! What an unbelievable admission, what confirmation that
whoever signs the cheques (do they even still use cheques??) is being
fed BS by probably the original pack of OMC BS'rs. Long long before
standard garden variety aluminium is even looking hot (melts over
600C!!!) the engine is in terminal detonation, because as soon as the
piston (or anything else in there) gets above 250C the game is over. Yes
the wrecked powerheads have melted pistons etc but that's the outcome of
uncontrollable detonation not the cause. Damn just how bloody stupid are
these people?? & can the cheque signer even breath unassisted???




So

far, I haven't heard much about the E-TECs other than my first hand
experience with them which was around 35 hours with a 40 and about 30
hours with a 70.

That's alot of hours Tom:-), those of us who really do boat will
confirm, hmmm bit of a worry don't go all Harry on us:-) Sounds like
you're trying the sell!! sell!! sell!!!


This "I know of one that didn't fail" testimonial; crap is just that
crap, it's the quiet owner who has his boating ruined by a design fault
& worse a known design fault that is the real issue, & yes they're in a
minority but if so what. Can you image if one in 5 GMs failed??? there
would be a huge govt mandated recall as I say there should be this time
with E tec, because this time you can't argue it's the EPA's or anyone
elses' fault.


Show me - give me a reference about this one-in-five fail rate. Even
with the mid-range engine problems they had, I don't believe it was 1
in 5.

It was straight from the head of OMC & confirmed by the NG OMC dealers
of the time, not that they tell or could even recognise the truth:-)


snipped


600+ on the '99 200 and just under 800 on the '01 225 twins and still
going strong.

Not really relevant Tom sorry, 2 stroke OBs are gone & good riddance.
Buy more at your own risk it's your money & now you are aware of the
risk I have no trouble.


I have the 200C Ranger up for sale and have a current offer, with a
deposit and everything, just under what I originally paid for it and
minus the electronics package I put on it. I'm just waiting for my
new 2300 Bay Ranger to be delivered in September. And that boat is
going to have a FICHT on it - 225 in fact.

Yes yes you're the usual seller, claiming this & that, in general any
boat with a Ficht or it's derivatives is & will always be devalued, for
good reason.


As to the Contender, I wouldn't sell it on a bet because I love the
boat. However, I have it looked over by a public adjuster with marine
experience every year for total replacement cost and you know what?
If the boat sank tomorrow, it's "true" value is 12% below what I paid
for it - not bad for a two year old boat that is used on a regular
basis. And that's without the electronics and equipment package which
is insured on a seperate policy.

Dear dear dear just keep paying those premiums based on that value then
Tom, wow you really are a dealers dream!!!


So much for the diiminished resale argument.

Yep so much it's sad.

However, to give you some outs, this is only my experience with the
FICHT. I have talked to other FICHT owners and they seem content with
their engines. Small sample to be sure, but these are folks in my
circle who are fairly knowledgable with a lot of experience with
outboards.

Honestly Tom where do you find them?? around here the only boats left
with Ficht on them are usually in the hands of dealers, telling the
usual lies to try & unload them. There were lots of people taken in in
the early times & they were pretty common, but seriously given the
claimed numbers sold, where the hell did they all go?? you rarely see a
Ficht powered boat these days, is it the same there??? Where does the
picture go when you turn off the telly??

If you have reference to actual facts - as in actual numbers, types of
failures, recalls, etc - I would appreciate seeing them.

OMC were never going to help with that, they just kept changing endless
blown powerheads & hoping the govt wouldn't make them do a full recall,
offering the dealers a 30% markup if they just kept selling defective
engines & dealers being what they are were only too happy to do that:-)
till they ran out of money; well till the union pension funds ran out
that is:-)

Always open to seeing and evaluating all the evidence.

There's plenty above to discuss, I look forward to it & thanks.

You are pushing it uphill with a piece of string though Tom, Yamaha
have all but given up on the DFI 2 strokes, Merc most certainly have, a
few smaller Japanese are left but in general terms the real
manufacturers have voted with their feet, or legs:-) whatever:-)

K


Later,

Tom