Run into this? My boat is named *after* that very problem! And there ar
emany on this very board that watched me tear my hair out.

My 1962 Merc 1000 (advertised in '62 as the Black Phantom) had this problem,
which would cause the voltage to rise and then the condensors (at the
breaker points) to fail at about 17 volts. This of course, after about 10
minutes at WOT after the start-up. It took me a while to figure out *why*
the motor would always turn to crap after about 10 minutes runtime.
Overvoltage was the *last* thing that came to mind, I was looking for a
thermal intermittant in the ignition.

The problem itself, that motor, and (by default) that boat, *earned* the
name of "The Phantom Menace", as it would always quit once you were far
from shore.

I don't totally get the mechanics of the problem, just that the newer
batteries don't seem to be able to bleed off the excess output like the old
ones did. On my new boat (the PMII) I installed a later model rectifier /
regulator combo on my big Inline.

-W

(now you know why Mercury paint is called "Phantom Black" by the way)





"CCred68046" wrote in message
...
Clamp it with a Zener Diode somewhere on the 12v output line. All excess
current will bleed off.

Thanks Clams,

I know I could regulate it easily. You are an old Merc fan and you know
how to
fix it so you must have run into this before. What I am looking for is
the
reason its doing this now after it ran fine all those years. Everything
is
still in spec electrically. I really find this interesting. All the posts
on
the web about it and no one can or has answered it yet.

Try this question in rec.crafts.metalworking
Someone there might have the answer.

"CCred68046" wrote in message
...
This problem comes up over and over again in the newsgroups and boating
boards
and NO ONE has answered it...

A lot of older outboards came with un-regulated charging systems and I
have
one.
I read about people reporting that their voltage had risen to 16+ volts.
Last
year after over TEN years of correct voltage I bought a new battery and
mine
started doing the same thing. I verified this with the boats volt meter
gauge,
a Fluke digital VOM and a Simpson 260 analog VOM. There is 16 volts there.
Everything in the charging system is within specs. I have even replaced a
lot
of the system and its still 16+ volts. After not getting an answer from
anyone
(including the manufacturer) as to what can cause this I just let it go to
see
what would happen. Its been running 2 seasons like this so far and nothing
bad
or what should be expected has happened.

1. Nothing has burned out or been hurt. (Fish finder, lights, guages,
GPS)
2. It has not caused the battery to boil off water, I have not added one
drop.
The battery is FINE.

Some people have reported that turning on accesories will drop the voltage
and
this is correct. It worked on mine for a while but it will eventually
charge
the battery and runs around 15 volts. Leaving the lights on for a while
to
discharge the battery will do the same thing. Its amazing how this 5 amp
system can charge so fast.

After many trys I finally got to actually speak with an engineer at the
manufacturer. He told me they were always aware of this high voltage and
their
guages (OMC) were specifically designed to handle the higher voltages
without
harm. I asked him why they would even make a system that could even
produce 16
volts in the first place and he said "it could do 45 volts". WHAT!!!!!!

I asked why they were not concerned about the battery gassing and causing
an
explosion. His reply was that their un-regulated charging systems produce
a
very low amperage. Mine is around 5 amps. He said in a simple
un-regulated
charging system there is a stator (generates AC) and a rectifier (changes
AC to
DC) and the battery acts as the regulator. He could not tell me why mine
has
run all these years at 13.5 - 14.5 volts and suddenly started running at
16.

He did give me these tips for ANYONE with an un-regulated charging system:

1. NEVER use a maintenance free battery.
2. NEVER use any of the new AGM batteries.
3. NEVER use one of the new spiral wound batteries.
3. ONLY use a battery with caps so you can check the water level on a
regular
basis.

FINE.
I saw this motor run at the correct voltage for years and I refuse to just
let
it keep doing this because it can. Being somewhat of an electrician I
need a
reason.
I checked every wire and ground in the boat, they were fine. A loose
ground
could cause a rise in voltage. I tested every plug and ground on the
motor. I
disconnected everything from the boat except for the motor to eliminate
wiring
problems and it STILL runs at 16 volts. I threw some money at it and
bought a
new rectifier which didnt help.

Now I am down to the battery. The factory manual calls for a battery with
"a
minimum of 360 CCA". I bought a battery with 1000 CCA and it went to 16
volts
instantly. I borrowed a battery with 600 CCA and got 16 volts after it
charged
up. I bought another small battery with 420 CCA and have not had the
chance to
test it yet. If this does not work I am going to try a battery combiner
and
let it charge my deep cycle trolling battery too. If I give it a load,
its
fine (about 14 volts). I could rig some kind of regulator to it but it
never
had one before and shouldnt need it now.
On an interesting note a weak battery will let it run within normal
voltage
range because it will never charge up fully. Problem with that is you
cant buy
a weak battery.
I will test the new small battery (420 CCA) to see if that works, it
stayed
under 14.5 volts on the muffs at around 1000 rpm's for about 10 minutes
which
is a record. Since the smaller battery will discharge more during
starting
it might give the charging system something to do but being smaller it
might
charge up faster.... hmm.

If anyone out there has any logical suggestions I will try them and I
would
like to hear from you. There has to be an answer to this. Could
something
cause three VOM's to read incorrectly?

I've just accepted it as a fact of life.
Seems as batteries got "better" they lost the ability to bleed off excess
current.
I think Bill came closest to what's going on.
Your charging system isn't broken, nor are your voltmeters.
Your old battery was able to "leak" your overproduction, your new one
can't - it's just that simple.
Nothing is "broken".
At least your boat will still run at 16v

The only fix (if you can't find a battery that will bleed it off) is to add
a device to regulate the system.

-W




"CCred68046" wrote in message
...
This problem comes up over and over again in the newsgroups and boating
boards
and NO ONE has answered it...

A lot of older outboards came with un-regulated charging systems and I
have
one.
I read about people reporting that their voltage had risen to 16+ volts.
Last
year after over TEN years of correct voltage I bought a new battery and
mine
started doing the same thing. I verified this with the boats volt meter
gauge,
a Fluke digital VOM and a Simpson 260 analog VOM. There is 16 volts
there.
Everything in the charging system is within specs. I have even replaced
a
lot
of the system and its still 16+ volts. After not getting an answer from
anyone
(including the manufacturer) as to what can cause this I just let it go
to
see
what would happen. Its been running 2 seasons like this so far and
nothing
bad
or what should be expected has happened.

1. Nothing has burned out or been hurt. (Fish finder, lights, guages,
GPS)
2. It has not caused the battery to boil off water, I have not added one
drop.
The battery is FINE.

Some people have reported that turning on accesories will drop the
voltage
and
this is correct. It worked on mine for a while but it will eventually
charge
the battery and runs around 15 volts. Leaving the lights on for a while
to
discharge the battery will do the same thing. Its amazing how this 5
amp
system can charge so fast.

After many trys I finally got to actually speak with an engineer at the
manufacturer. He told me they were always aware of this high voltage
and
their
guages (OMC) were specifically designed to handle the higher voltages
without
harm. I asked him why they would even make a system that could even
produce 16
volts in the first place and he said "it could do 45 volts".
WHAT!!!!!!

I asked why they were not concerned about the battery gassing and
causing
an
explosion. His reply was that their un-regulated charging systems
produce
a
very low amperage. Mine is around 5 amps. He said in a simple
un-regulated
charging system there is a stator (generates AC) and a rectifier
(changes
AC to
DC) and the battery acts as the regulator. He could not tell me why
mine
has
run all these years at 13.5 - 14.5 volts and suddenly started running at
16.

He did give me these tips for ANYONE with an un-regulated charging
system:

1. NEVER use a maintenance free battery.
2. NEVER use any of the new AGM batteries.
3. NEVER use one of the new spiral wound batteries.
3. ONLY use a battery with caps so you can check the water level on a
regular
basis.

FINE.
I saw this motor run at the correct voltage for years and I refuse to
just
let
it keep doing this because it can. Being somewhat of an electrician I
need a
reason.
I checked every wire and ground in the boat, they were fine. A loose
ground
could cause a rise in voltage. I tested every plug and ground on the
motor. I
disconnected everything from the boat except for the motor to eliminate
wiring
problems and it STILL runs at 16 volts. I threw some money at it and
bought a
new rectifier which didnt help.

Now I am down to the battery. The factory manual calls for a battery
with
"a
minimum of 360 CCA". I bought a battery with 1000 CCA and it went to 16
volts
instantly. I borrowed a battery with 600 CCA and got 16 volts after it
charged
up. I bought another small battery with 420 CCA and have not had the
chance to
test it yet. If this does not work I am going to try a battery combiner
and
let it charge my deep cycle trolling battery too. If I give it a load,
its
fine (about 14 volts). I could rig some kind of regulator to it but it
never
had one before and shouldnt need it now.
On an interesting note a weak battery will let it run within normal
voltage
range because it will never charge up fully. Problem with that is you
cant buy
a weak battery.
I will test the new small battery (420 CCA) to see if that works, it
stayed
under 14.5 volts on the muffs at around 1000 rpm's for about 10 minutes
which
is a record. Since the smaller battery will discharge more during
starting
it might give the charging system something to do but being smaller it
might
charge up faster.... hmm.

If anyone out there has any logical suggestions I will try them and I
would
like to hear from you. There has to be an answer to this. Could
something
cause three VOM's to read incorrectly?

"CCred68046" wrote in message
...
The biggest reason that voltage climbs so high on an unregulated system
is
that the battery is too small a capacity, and/or is a sealed or
"maintenance
free" version. You want a "flooded cell" battery, the largest you can fit
and afford, to run your boat's electrics.

Hey, good to see your still in the group Bill!
I have tried several batteries... I'm currently running a group 27
1000cca. I
have tried 3 BIG non maintenance free batteries. Everyone of them did
the
same thing.


What make, model, year outboard do you have?

Most modern batteries cram a lot of CCA (cold cranking amps) into the
design, but with a loss of reserve power. You want a battery with high
reserve minutes, above 200, and that will absorb the excess voltage. Imagine
charging a small garden tractor or motorcycle battery at a constant 6 amps,
the voltage would climb and it would boil away after a short time. Now
charge a huge bus or truck battery, like an 8D, and your voltage may not
even rise above 14.

A group 27, 30, or 31 deep cycle battery, as long as it meets your engine's
CCA requirement, works a lot better than a "new high tech, quick start"
battery, on unregulated systems.

Bill Grannis
service manager