Why not ride the bus instead of a Hybrid? Makes as much sense as your
argument.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
True, but look around you on the highway. What percentage of cars would
you estimate have just one or two passengers on a typical work day? A few
years back, the University of Rochester posted students from a stats class
at the entrance to the NY State Thruway and found that about 85% of
vehicles had one passenger. This was a weekday morning from rush hour
through lunch time. That's one as in "1".

Obviously, nobody's going to tow with a hybrid, but that's not relevant.

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
k.net...
Most of your hybrids and very high fuel efficiency vehicles are small,
lightweight and not enough capacity to haul around the 2-4 kids and their
gear as well as the groceries. It is fine for a DINK or single person,
not one who wants to haul the kids to the little league game, or camping
and to tow a boat of trailer. It may be OK as a 2nd vehicle for the
commuter.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
The confusion began here when you said consumers would not buy fuel
efficient vehicles until this that or the other thing happened. I
pointed out that these vehicles exist and are selling nicely already.
This is not an absolute statement, since it should be obvious that MORE
of these vehicles will be sold as fuel prices increase, and as the
current crop of still-useful vehicles ages and needs replacement.

It did NOT disagree with anything you said in your last paragraph
beginning with "I can't figure out...". One exception, though: Oil
prices are largely disconnected from supply and demand. If you believe
otherwise, you are not familiar with how daily prices are REALLY pegged
by speculators. The price increases of the past 12 months are wildly out
of proportion to changes in supply & demand.

"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
I can't figure out what you are saying. Are you saying gas prices are
not controlled by supply and demand? Do you not agree that we can
substantially reduce our consumption by buying fuel efficient cars? Are
you disagreeing with the experts when they say the only long term
solution is to find alternative energy sources, and at the current
price of fossil fuel there is no economic incentive to developed and
market alternative energy? Do you think everyone including Al Gore
missed the boat on this?

pHs - how did you like my boating reference?


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most
experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just
look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who
have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't
negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like
hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency",
compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg).



"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one
reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in
demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for
better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it
worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient
cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas
guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at
78 degrees.

Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the
cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy
sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find
alternative energy.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of
gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of
gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they
would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel
efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until
the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so.

That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold.
It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg.
Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out
with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
True, but look around you on the highway. What percentage of cars would
you estimate have just one or two passengers on a typical work day? A few
years back, the University of Rochester posted students from a stats
class at the entrance to the NY State Thruway and found that about 85% of
vehicles had one passenger. This was a weekday morning from rush hour
through lunch time. That's one as in "1".

Obviously, nobody's going to tow with a hybrid, but that's not relevant.

It is relevant Dougie!

Most of us don't want to have three or four "trip" purpose built vehicles
around let alone the dealing with the all of the costs of all of those
vehicles.

I now work at home, but when I commuted to an office, I investigated taking
the bus. My normal commute took about 20 minutes. Taking the bus would've
turned that into a 90 minute trip each way. Totally impractical. The bus
system here uses an antiquated hub-and-spoke routing system, which takes all
buses from the suburbs downtown first, where you then switch to another bus.
The head of the transit system is a political appointee who believes the
current system is perfect. He's under vicious attack at the moment by some
very interesting groups, including the county's social services agency. They
suggest that stealing 3-4 hours a day from families is putting some kids at
risk because their parents aren't around as much as they should be. I think
they have a point.



"Bill McKee" wrote in message
nk.net...
Why not ride the bus instead of a Hybrid? Makes as much sense as your
argument.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
True, but look around you on the highway. What percentage of cars would
you estimate have just one or two passengers on a typical work day? A few
years back, the University of Rochester posted students from a stats
class at the entrance to the NY State Thruway and found that about 85% of
vehicles had one passenger. This was a weekday morning from rush hour
through lunch time. That's one as in "1".

Obviously, nobody's going to tow with a hybrid, but that's not relevant.

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
k.net...
Most of your hybrids and very high fuel efficiency vehicles are small,
lightweight and not enough capacity to haul around the 2-4 kids and
their gear as well as the groceries. It is fine for a DINK or single
person, not one who wants to haul the kids to the little league game, or
camping and to tow a boat of trailer. It may be OK as a 2nd vehicle for
the commuter.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
The confusion began here when you said consumers would not buy fuel
efficient vehicles until this that or the other thing happened. I
pointed out that these vehicles exist and are selling nicely already.
This is not an absolute statement, since it should be obvious that MORE
of these vehicles will be sold as fuel prices increase, and as the
current crop of still-useful vehicles ages and needs replacement.

It did NOT disagree with anything you said in your last paragraph
beginning with "I can't figure out...". One exception, though: Oil
prices are largely disconnected from supply and demand. If you believe
otherwise, you are not familiar with how daily prices are REALLY pegged
by speculators. The price increases of the past 12 months are wildly
out of proportion to changes in supply & demand.

"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
I can't figure out what you are saying. Are you saying gas prices are
not controlled by supply and demand? Do you not agree that we can
substantially reduce our consumption by buying fuel efficient cars?
Are you disagreeing with the experts when they say the only long term
solution is to find alternative energy sources, and at the current
price of fossil fuel there is no economic incentive to developed and
market alternative energy? Do you think everyone including Al Gore
missed the boat on this?

pHs - how did you like my boating reference?


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their
most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could
just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people
who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that
doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are
selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high
efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg).



"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one
reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in
demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for
better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make
it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient
cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas
guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at
78 degrees.

Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the
cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative
energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to
find alternative energy.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of
gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of
gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they
would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel
efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until
the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so.

That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold.
It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30
mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these
out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3.

If you let the free market decide, and they were actually given a choice,
they might make the right one - but when the govt and the large monopolies
block the alternatives - like the fourTwo smart car for example !!! - then
how are the people to decide ? They take what they are led to believe they
need..
the sad part is, with all these big SUV's , we actually have a platform that
could support some of the alternative energy sources (fuel cell, etc), which
simply dont fit into the compact cars....

The govt could be doing a lot more for incentives to both consumers and
manufacturers to get people moving in the right direction...

wrote in message
ups.com...

Harry Krause wrote:
Regular grade gasoline was $3.05 a gallon yesterday at several docks in
Annapolis. Diesel was $2.61 to $2.65.

Thanks, Dubya.


It's a real stretch to try to blame George Bush for five decades of
over consumption, five decades of refusal to seriously pursue
alternative energy sources, five decades of ass-kissing BIG OIL and THE
BIG THREE automakers. He can be held accountable for the things like
the gutting of CAFE standards during his administration. He can be
criticized for developing a national "energy policy" that concentrates
primarily on squeezing the last few drops of oil out of the ground and
excusing his family's (and other) oil companies from taxes in the
process. He can be resented, a bit, because he and his family are
getting filthy rich(er) every time the price of a bbl of oil goes up a
buck. He clearly has no personal incentive to wish for lower oil
prices, but it isn't fair to lay the blame for the current pricing on
Bush.

The SUV aspect of this whole thing is amusing. Not that SUV's are
primarily responsible for the high prices of oil- but if you remember
the last few years every time some environmentalist suggested that it
might not be in the national interest to offer vehicles that got less
than 10 mpg the right wing radio shows all began to squeal, (on cue),
"we need to let the free market decide what people will buy and drive".
I hope those same apologists have the same "free market" attitude
toward the price of oil. You're seeing $3 at the marina- on the west
coast we're seeing $3 at a lot of regular gas stations (for high
octane).

Yeah, but we have a large contingent of meat socks who would call that "too
much government involvement".

"Coz" wrote in message
news:ZR1Pe.9454$Hk.8651@pd7tw1no...
If you let the free market decide, and they were actually given a choice,
they might make the right one - but when the govt and the large monopolies
block the alternatives - like the fourTwo smart car for example !!! - then
how are the people to decide ? They take what they are led to believe they
need..
the sad part is, with all these big SUV's , we actually have a platform
that could support some of the alternative energy sources (fuel cell,
etc), which simply dont fit into the compact cars....

The govt could be doing a lot more for incentives to both consumers and
manufacturers to get people moving in the right direction...

wrote in message
ups.com...

Harry Krause wrote:
Regular grade gasoline was $3.05 a gallon yesterday at several docks in
Annapolis. Diesel was $2.61 to $2.65.

Thanks, Dubya.


It's a real stretch to try to blame George Bush for five decades of
over consumption, five decades of refusal to seriously pursue
alternative energy sources, five decades of ass-kissing BIG OIL and THE
BIG THREE automakers. He can be held accountable for the things like
the gutting of CAFE standards during his administration. He can be
criticized for developing a national "energy policy" that concentrates
primarily on squeezing the last few drops of oil out of the ground and
excusing his family's (and other) oil companies from taxes in the
process. He can be resented, a bit, because he and his family are
getting filthy rich(er) every time the price of a bbl of oil goes up a
buck. He clearly has no personal incentive to wish for lower oil
prices, but it isn't fair to lay the blame for the current pricing on
Bush.

The SUV aspect of this whole thing is amusing. Not that SUV's are
primarily responsible for the high prices of oil- but if you remember
the last few years every time some environmentalist suggested that it
might not be in the national interest to offer vehicles that got less
than 10 mpg the right wing radio shows all began to squeal, (on cue),
"we need to let the free market decide what people will buy and drive".
I hope those same apologists have the same "free market" attitude
toward the price of oil. You're seeing $3 at the marina- on the west
coast we're seeing $3 at a lot of regular gas stations (for high
octane).

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:25:57 +0000, Doug Kanter wrote:


The bus system here uses an antiquated hub-and-spoke routing system, which
takes all buses from the suburbs downtown first, where you then switch to
another bus.

Ahh, another benefit of cheap oil, sprawl. Before the interstates and
city flight, the hub-and-spoke system worked well. Now that we our
workplaces and homes are sprawled all over the countryside, hub-and-spoke
just doesn't work anymore.

It will be an interesting dynamic to watch. When gas reaches $15-20 per
gallon, or worse, becomes rationed, 50 years of spreading out will implode.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
They're made here. They employ a ****load of Americans who can actually be
proud of producing vehicles that don't suck.



They are assembled here. Big difference.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Bill McKee wrote:

Prius on a good day makes 45 mpg. That is nice, but the only ones who
are
beating the 45 mpg max are the "hot rodders" who are stuffing more
batteries
in and adding the "plug in hybrid" capability. Long highway trip, you
will
get about 30 on a hybrid. Very little braking, slowing down, etc that is
recovered as stored energy. The around town and short stop and go trips
are
the most efficient use. The plug in modifiers get the advantage of the
extra battery capacity and plug in to the house charging. Up until a
couple
of years ago, that voided the hybrids warrantee.

As usual, dead wrong again!!! See he
http://randyrathbun.org/prius/prius_mileage/

Then this:

After driving Diesel Volkswagens for 25 years, we have moved into a new
era. We are now driving a 2002 Toyota Prius hybrid car. So far, we
can report that driving the Prius is remarkable for being so
unremarkable -- it feels very much like any other Toyota with an
automatic transmission, only better because the transmission is in
effect continuously variable. A computerized control system moves
energy between the gasoline engine, the electric motors, the battery,
and the wheels; if it weren't for the readout on the dash, we probably
wouldn't notice most of the optimizations that it performs.



Toyota Prius dash and shift lever
Toyota Prius mileage computer

Especially in winter driving, we found that mileage is much better once
the engine is warmed up; the warmup is much faster when temperatures
are higher. In the pictures above, we had just completed a trip of
about 35 minutes duration in 55 degree weather (clicking on either
picture will display a larger version). The mileage was relatively
poor in the first 10 minutes (the first five are not shown), then
steadily improved during highway driving to more than 50 mpg. The
final 10 minutes show very high efficiency in low-speed driving, when
the Prius can shut off its gasoline engine much of the time and operate
silently in electric mode using stored energy from the battery. For
this reason, city mileage really is often better than highway mileage.

And this that shows an average of 48.2 mpg:
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/m.../car/1089.html

And this, showing virtually the same mileage:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/16705.shtml


So you come up with 1 person. The 45 is the normal maximum average for
mixed driving conditions. That is for stop and go driving. Highway, the
milage drops to the underpowered gas engines performance. And how many
websites did yo peruse to find a couple that did make te 45 mpg, but not the
50 mpg.

Chuck, what is the price of biodiesel now?

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
ink.net...

wrote in message
oups.com...

Bill McKee wrote:

Prius on a good day makes 45 mpg. That is nice, but the only ones who
are
beating the 45 mpg max are the "hot rodders" who are stuffing more
batteries
in and adding the "plug in hybrid" capability. Long highway trip, you
will
get about 30 on a hybrid. Very little braking, slowing down, etc that
is
recovered as stored energy. The around town and short stop and go trips
are
the most efficient use. The plug in modifiers get the advantage of the
extra battery capacity and plug in to the house charging. Up until a
couple
of years ago, that voided the hybrids warrantee.

As usual, dead wrong again!!! See he
http://randyrathbun.org/prius/prius_mileage/

Then this:

After driving Diesel Volkswagens for 25 years, we have moved into a new
era. We are now driving a 2002 Toyota Prius hybrid car. So far, we
can report that driving the Prius is remarkable for being so
unremarkable -- it feels very much like any other Toyota with an
automatic transmission, only better because the transmission is in
effect continuously variable. A computerized control system moves
energy between the gasoline engine, the electric motors, the battery,
and the wheels; if it weren't for the readout on the dash, we probably
wouldn't notice most of the optimizations that it performs.



Toyota Prius dash and shift lever
Toyota Prius mileage computer

Especially in winter driving, we found that mileage is much better once
the engine is warmed up; the warmup is much faster when temperatures
are higher. In the pictures above, we had just completed a trip of
about 35 minutes duration in 55 degree weather (clicking on either
picture will display a larger version). The mileage was relatively
poor in the first 10 minutes (the first five are not shown), then
steadily improved during highway driving to more than 50 mpg. The
final 10 minutes show very high efficiency in low-speed driving, when
the Prius can shut off its gasoline engine much of the time and operate
silently in electric mode using stored energy from the battery. For
this reason, city mileage really is often better than highway mileage.

And this that shows an average of 48.2 mpg:
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/m.../car/1089.html

And this, showing virtually the same mileage:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/16705.shtml


So you come up with 1 person. The 45 is the normal maximum average for
mixed driving conditions. That is for stop and go driving. Highway, the
milage drops to the underpowered gas engines performance. And how many
websites did yo peruse to find a couple that did make te 45 mpg, but not
the 50 mpg.


So, let's see if I'm hearing you correctly: Since a Prius actually averages
around 45 mpg, nothing would be gained by getting rid of a Dodge pickup
(with a hemi!!!) that gets 12 mpg. Furthermore, even though 45 mpg is
better than a Corolla, which (guessing) gets 30 mpg, it's really NOT better
for some strange reason.