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Marina Gas over $3.00 Locally
Harry Krause wrote: Regular grade gasoline was $3.05 a gallon yesterday at several docks in Annapolis. Diesel was $2.61 to $2.65. Thanks, Dubya. It's a real stretch to try to blame George Bush for five decades of over consumption, five decades of refusal to seriously pursue alternative energy sources, five decades of ass-kissing BIG OIL and THE BIG THREE automakers. He can be held accountable for the things like the gutting of CAFE standards during his administration. He can be criticized for developing a national "energy policy" that concentrates primarily on squeezing the last few drops of oil out of the ground and excusing his family's (and other) oil companies from taxes in the process. He can be resented, a bit, because he and his family are getting filthy rich(er) every time the price of a bbl of oil goes up a buck. He clearly has no personal incentive to wish for lower oil prices, but it isn't fair to lay the blame for the current pricing on Bush. The SUV aspect of this whole thing is amusing. Not that SUV's are primarily responsible for the high prices of oil- but if you remember the last few years every time some environmentalist suggested that it might not be in the national interest to offer vehicles that got less than 10 mpg the right wing radio shows all began to squeal, (on cue), "we need to let the free market decide what people will buy and drive". I hope those same apologists have the same "free market" attitude toward the price of oil. You're seeing $3 at the marina- on the west coast we're seeing $3 at a lot of regular gas stations (for high octane). |
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:58:11 -0700, gould0738 wrote:
It's a real stretch to try to blame George Bush It's a stretch, but interesting to note how we got here. http://www.faultline.org/news/2001/1...ependence.html I hope those same apologists have the same "free market" attitude toward the price of oil. Hey, we only have ourselves to blame. Someone promised us a "free lunch" and we believed them. It's been over 30 years since the first oil crunch, and we are still no less vulnerable. That's failed leadership. |
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... ..................snip............ He described recent US government actions as "aggressive" in a speech at a youth festival in Caracas. As a result, Venezuelan oil "instead of going to the United States, could go elsewhere," he said. produces 80% of the world's supply. ................snip.............. If Chavez turns off the spigot, you'll start to see violence at the gas pump. Harry.......You heard it first here! Venezuela will soon be attacked by the USA..........There will be some feeble excuse invented by the CIA and American troops will invade. Jim |
Jim Carter wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... .................snip............ He described recent US government actions as "aggressive" in a speech at a youth festival in Caracas. As a result, Venezuelan oil "instead of going to the United States, could go elsewhere," he said. produces 80% of the world's supply. ...............snip.............. If Chavez turns off the spigot, you'll start to see violence at the gas pump. Harry.......You heard it first here! Venezuela will soon be attacked by the USA..........There will be some feeble excuse invented by the CIA and American troops will invade. Jim "We understand that Venezuela has underground storage facilities with billions of gallons of toxic, combustible materials and a well developed plan to make this material available to incendiary factions within the borders of the US homeland" That ought to about do it. :-) |
wrote in message oups.com... "We understand that Venezuela has underground storage facilities with billions of gallons of toxic, combustible materials and a well developed plan to make this material available to incendiary factions within the borders of the US homeland" That ought to about do it. :-) I am still laughing at that one!!!!! You come up with the greatest lines I have ever read!!! Jim |
wrote in message
ups.com... Harry Krause wrote: Regular grade gasoline was $3.05 a gallon yesterday at several docks in Annapolis. Diesel was $2.61 to $2.65. Thanks, Dubya. It's a real stretch to try to blame George Bush for five decades of over consumption, five decades of refusal to seriously pursue alternative energy sources, five decades of ass-kissing BIG OIL and THE BIG THREE automakers. He can be held accountable for the things like the gutting of CAFE standards during his administration. He can be criticized for developing a national "energy policy" that concentrates primarily on squeezing the last few drops of oil out of the ground and excusing his family's (and other) oil companies from taxes in the process. He can be resented, a bit, because he and his family are getting filthy rich(er) every time the price of a bbl of oil goes up a buck. He clearly has no personal incentive to wish for lower oil prices, but it isn't fair to lay the blame for the current pricing on Bush. In all fairness, you really have to listen to the news reports when the price jumps. Inevitably, they say things like "Oil rose to XXX per barrel in Singapore trading, based on concerns about hurricanes, the failure of HBO to produce a new season of the Sopranos on time, increased violence in Iraq" .....blah blah blah. The hurricane fear also causes orange juice futures to increase in price, even if the hurricane was a false alarm and never touches Florida. Those prices tend to come down after the weather has passed. Same with coffee, when strange weather affects Africa or South America. But, they *never* seem to go down when oil is involved, and the latest round of fears don't materialize. See where I'm going with this? You *can* blame Bush for some of the fears felt by speculators. He started a war and created instability. That DIRECTLY affects speculation. It's obscene for a product as important as oil to be controlled by people who are no different than the mutual fund managers whose enormous trades move the prices of stocks all over the place on any given day. Traders on the oil markets make commissions regardless of whether they're long or short in their speculative ventures. It's no different than traders in options on the CBOE. I'm wondering if it's time to either nationalize oil, or put laws in place which require that the price be precisely pegged to how much is actually shipped. But, Bush has personal financial reasons not to go for such a plan. That is a real problem. |
We need to fully explore our own energy resources rather than relying on
foreign sources. Short term, this means exploiting existing fossil fuels such as coal, oil, and natural gas, and expanding our domestic exploration for these fuels. Long term, we need to put our scientists and engineers to the task of exploiting truly renewable energy sources- wind, hydro, and solar for electricity generation, and electric vehicles. Hybrids and "fuel cells" are a crock as permanent solutions. Hybrids merely use less of what will eventually run out (though they are a ngood bridging technology) and "fuel cell vehicles" tend to rely on fossil fuel processes (such as natural gas) to produce energy. The market will indeed drive these things. How many people do you know that have begun to think about hybrid, electric, and ultra-high mileage cars lately? I know lots- I'm currently researching how to build a retrofitted small electric car (converted VW or similar) for around town driving myself. I'll keep the Suburban for now- need it to tow the boat or camper. But we don't drive it to work anymore- the older spare car has replaced it as a commuter vehicle. We also don't boat as much as we used to... I'm sure that boat fuel economy will be a main factor in our next boat purchase, as well. Government needs to stay out of it, IMHO- the wallet of the consumer is a much more powerful tool for change than any bureaucrat's whim. The government mandates airbags, but how many of you would buy a car without one for your family to drive? So, the airbag laws aren't neccessarily needed. I dare Detroit or Osaka to put out a car without an airbag- it's not gonna fly. I dare them to keep churning out massive numbers of giant gas guzzlers- they're going to go bankrupt if they do. If Detroit has any decent businesspeople at the reins nowadays, they will come up with a 50-60 mpg (or more) commuter vehicle. I'd buy one, and so would several million of my neighbors. They should invest in research for an economical mass-produced electric short-range (50-75 mi) commuter vehicle for picking up the kids from school, grocery shopping, running to Wal-Mart, etc. They'd make a killing in just a few years. wrote in message ups.com... Harry Krause wrote: Regular grade gasoline was $3.05 a gallon yesterday at several docks in Annapolis. Diesel was $2.61 to $2.65. Thanks, Dubya. It's a real stretch to try to blame George Bush for five decades of over consumption, five decades of refusal to seriously pursue alternative energy sources, five decades of ass-kissing BIG OIL and THE BIG THREE automakers. He can be held accountable for the things like the gutting of CAFE standards during his administration. He can be criticized for developing a national "energy policy" that concentrates primarily on squeezing the last few drops of oil out of the ground and excusing his family's (and other) oil companies from taxes in the process. He can be resented, a bit, because he and his family are getting filthy rich(er) every time the price of a bbl of oil goes up a buck. He clearly has no personal incentive to wish for lower oil prices, but it isn't fair to lay the blame for the current pricing on Bush. The SUV aspect of this whole thing is amusing. Not that SUV's are primarily responsible for the high prices of oil- but if you remember the last few years every time some environmentalist suggested that it might not be in the national interest to offer vehicles that got less than 10 mpg the right wing radio shows all began to squeal, (on cue), "we need to let the free market decide what people will buy and drive". I hope those same apologists have the same "free market" attitude toward the price of oil. You're seeing $3 at the marina- on the west coast we're seeing $3 at a lot of regular gas stations (for high octane). |
"Stanley Barthfarkle" wrote in message
. .. If Detroit has any decent businesspeople at the reins nowadays, they will come up with a 50-60 mpg (or more) commuter vehicle. I'd buy one....... Cars like the Toyota Prius are already in that mpg range. Why wait for Detroit to get its head out of its ass? |
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:51:14 -0400, Harry Krause wrote:
Regular grade gasoline was $3.05 a gallon yesterday at several docks in Annapolis. Or half of what most Europeans pay for petrol. OK, petrol + tax. /Martin |
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are
driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Stanley Barthfarkle" wrote in message . .. If Detroit has any decent businesspeople at the reins nowadays, they will come up with a 50-60 mpg (or more) commuter vehicle. I'd buy one....... Cars like the Toyota Prius are already in that mpg range. Why wait for Detroit to get its head out of its ass? |
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. Which is why doug's comment is so ridiculous. If there was a market for those cars, the big three would be producing them......as it is, Chysler can't keep up with depmand for their new huge truck, Secondly, engine technology is limited wrt to increasing fuel economy. The auto manufacturer's have increased fleet fuel efficiency by lightening the load........reducing the sheet metal thickness, more plastic and aluminum, shaving fractions of ounces off of every part..................we end up paying for it in the long run in car repairs, highway deaths, etc. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Stanley Barthfarkle" wrote in message . .. If Detroit has any decent businesspeople at the reins nowadays, they will come up with a 50-60 mpg (or more) commuter vehicle. I'd buy one....... Cars like the Toyota Prius are already in that mpg range. Why wait for Detroit to get its head out of its ass? |
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. |
"P. Fritz" wrote in message
... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. Which is why doug's comment is so ridiculous. If there was a market for those cars, the big three would be producing them......as it is, Chysler can't keep up with depmand for their new huge truck, Secondly, engine technology is limited wrt to increasing fuel economy. The auto manufacturer's have increased fleet fuel efficiency by lightening the load........reducing the sheet metal thickness, more plastic and aluminum, shaving fractions of ounces off of every part..................we end up paying for it in the long run in car repairs, highway deaths, etc. We end up paying for it? Really? |
Doug,
What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. |
Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most
experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg). "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. |
Doug,
I can't figure out what you are saying. Are you saying gas prices are not controlled by supply and demand? Do you not agree that we can substantially reduce our consumption by buying fuel efficient cars? Are you disagreeing with the experts when they say the only long term solution is to find alternative energy sources, and at the current price of fossil fuel there is no economic incentive to developed and market alternative energy? Do you think everyone including Al Gore missed the boat on this? pHs - how did you like my boating reference? "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg). "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. |
The confusion began here when you said consumers would not buy fuel
efficient vehicles until this that or the other thing happened. I pointed out that these vehicles exist and are selling nicely already. This is not an absolute statement, since it should be obvious that MORE of these vehicles will be sold as fuel prices increase, and as the current crop of still-useful vehicles ages and needs replacement. It did NOT disagree with anything you said in your last paragraph beginning with "I can't figure out...". One exception, though: Oil prices are largely disconnected from supply and demand. If you believe otherwise, you are not familiar with how daily prices are REALLY pegged by speculators. The price increases of the past 12 months are wildly out of proportion to changes in supply & demand. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, I can't figure out what you are saying. Are you saying gas prices are not controlled by supply and demand? Do you not agree that we can substantially reduce our consumption by buying fuel efficient cars? Are you disagreeing with the experts when they say the only long term solution is to find alternative energy sources, and at the current price of fossil fuel there is no economic incentive to developed and market alternative energy? Do you think everyone including Al Gore missed the boat on this? pHs - how did you like my boating reference? "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg). "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. |
Doug,
I know you prefer to talk to the experienced salepeople to determine buying patterns, but I found it easier to look at sales history. These gas guzzlers purchased in 2004 will continue to guzzle gas for the next 15 - 20 yrs. Best-selling vehicles Car First-half 2004 sales Base price Ford F-Series 432,969 $19,920 Chevrolet Silverado 322,907 $19,485 Dodge Ram pickup 223,609 $20,365 Toyota Camry 213,625 $19,560 Honda Accord 192,106 $16,390 Ford Explorer 168,059 $23,690 Honda Civic 162,483 $13,500 Ford Taurus 144,035 $20,320 Chevrolet Impala 139,460 22,395 Dodge Caravan 131,367 $18,995 "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg). "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. |
Well....at least we know that the vehicles from the big 3 will be gone
within a few years. As far as the figures for the big trucks, I think you have to subtract those sold to people who actually MUST have such vehicles for their work. That would leave us with real numbers for the yahoos who buy "a hemi" just because they feel like it. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, I know you prefer to talk to the experienced salepeople to determine buying patterns, but I found it easier to look at sales history. These gas guzzlers purchased in 2004 will continue to guzzle gas for the next 15 - 20 yrs. Best-selling vehicles Car First-half 2004 sales Base price . Ford F-Series 432,969 $19,920 . Chevrolet Silverado 322,907 $19,485 . Dodge Ram pickup 223,609 $20,365 . Toyota Camry 213,625 $19,560 . Honda Accord 192,106 $16,390 . Ford Explorer 168,059 $23,690 . Honda Civic 162,483 $13,500 . Ford Taurus 144,035 $20,320 . Chevrolet Impala 139,460 22,395 . Dodge Caravan 131,367 $18,995 "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg). "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. |
Harry,
I know you are upset because Doug and I are having a conversation, why don't you just ignore us and go back to insulting JohnH, JimH and all the other right wing borg. Maybe you can make up some more stories to boost your feeble ego. "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Doug Kanter wrote: Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg). "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. If you are arguing with "Juan," you are arguing with someone whose only interest here is "playing" other participants. |
Doug,
As China continues to expand it manufacture capacity and it's citizens continue to increase their consumption of oil, the price of oil will continue to increase. I hate this as much as you do, because I too buy gas and heat my home. The truth is the only way we can change this is to find alternative energy and more efficient ways to use oil. If we nationalize the oil industry, it is not going to change the long term problem. If we elect a democratic house, senate and president, it still is not going to change the long term direction. Al Gore wrote a book (I think it was about 10 yrs ago) that forecasted this exact situation we are faced with today. It is time to face the facts, oil is a finite resource and we are using it up very fast. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Well....at least we know that the vehicles from the big 3 will be gone within a few years. As far as the figures for the big trucks, I think you have to subtract those sold to people who actually MUST have such vehicles for their work. That would leave us with real numbers for the yahoos who buy "a hemi" just because they feel like it. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, I know you prefer to talk to the experienced salepeople to determine buying patterns, but I found it easier to look at sales history. These gas guzzlers purchased in 2004 will continue to guzzle gas for the next 15 - 20 yrs. Best-selling vehicles Car First-half 2004 sales Base price . Ford F-Series 432,969 $19,920 . Chevrolet Silverado 322,907 $19,485 . Dodge Ram pickup 223,609 $20,365 . Toyota Camry 213,625 $19,560 . Honda Accord 192,106 $16,390 . Ford Explorer 168,059 $23,690 . Honda Civic 162,483 $13,500 . Ford Taurus 144,035 $20,320 . Chevrolet Impala 139,460 22,395 . Dodge Caravan 131,367 $18,995 "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg). "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. |
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Regular grade gasoline was $3.05 a gallon yesterday at several docks in Annapolis. Diesel was $2.61 to $2.65. Thanks, Dubya. If you really believe it's Bush's fault, you lost all credibility you had. |
Harry Krause wrote:
Regular grade gasoline was $3.05 a gallon yesterday at several docks in Annapolis. Diesel was $2.61 to $2.65. Thanks, Dubya. With my small 6hp Evinrude, I can buy gas anywhere. Here, at self-service pumps, regular gas is still $1.13 CDN per liter Thank George for me too! |
True, but this does not address the current issue: The price of oil, as it
stands today, is not related to supply or demand. It is where it is because the price has been bid up to current levels based purely on speculation. This is no different than the way tech stocks were inflated all out of proportion a few years ago. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, As China continues to expand it manufacture capacity and it's citizens continue to increase their consumption of oil, the price of oil will continue to increase. I hate this as much as you do, because I too buy gas and heat my home. The truth is the only way we can change this is to find alternative energy and more efficient ways to use oil. If we nationalize the oil industry, it is not going to change the long term problem. If we elect a democratic house, senate and president, it still is not going to change the long term direction. Al Gore wrote a book (I think it was about 10 yrs ago) that forecasted this exact situation we are faced with today. It is time to face the facts, oil is a finite resource and we are using it up very fast. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Well....at least we know that the vehicles from the big 3 will be gone within a few years. As far as the figures for the big trucks, I think you have to subtract those sold to people who actually MUST have such vehicles for their work. That would leave us with real numbers for the yahoos who buy "a hemi" just because they feel like it. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, I know you prefer to talk to the experienced salepeople to determine buying patterns, but I found it easier to look at sales history. These gas guzzlers purchased in 2004 will continue to guzzle gas for the next 15 - 20 yrs. Best-selling vehicles Car First-half 2004 sales Base price . Ford F-Series 432,969 $19,920 . Chevrolet Silverado 322,907 $19,485 . Dodge Ram pickup 223,609 $20,365 . Toyota Camry 213,625 $19,560 . Honda Accord 192,106 $16,390 . Ford Explorer 168,059 $23,690 . Honda Civic 162,483 $13,500 . Ford Taurus 144,035 $20,320 . Chevrolet Impala 139,460 22,395 . Dodge Caravan 131,367 $18,995 "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg). "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. |
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Harry, I know you are upset because Doug and I are having a conversation, why don't you just ignore us and go back to insulting JohnH, JimH and all the other right wing borg. Maybe you can make up some more stories to boost your feeble ego. Harry hasn't had kevin stick is nose up his ass in quite a few days.........so he is only left with don..... "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Doug Kanter wrote: Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg). "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. If you are arguing with "Juan," you are arguing with someone whose only interest here is "playing" other participants. |
Doug,
Oil futures are based upon the best guess of it's future worth. They do not determine what someone will actually pay for the oil in the future. If oil futures are bid up to $120 a barrel, that does not mean that will be the market price when the future is due. It is normally that the price of commodity will not be the same price as that on a futures contract. The difference is the profit or lose realized by the person holding the futures contract. While it is easy to hold stock certificates in a bank, when it comes time to pay off on your futures contract, most people have to sell the oil, they do not have empty tankers sitting around to hold the oil waiting for a better price. They will have to sell the oil at the market price, which is determined by supply and demand. Trust me, if the US reduced it consumption by 25% and China reduced it's consumption by 25% we would see one hell of a drop in oil prices. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... True, but this does not address the current issue: The price of oil, as it stands today, is not related to supply or demand. It is where it is because the price has been bid up to current levels based purely on speculation. This is no different than the way tech stocks were inflated all out of proportion a few years ago. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, As China continues to expand it manufacture capacity and it's citizens continue to increase their consumption of oil, the price of oil will continue to increase. I hate this as much as you do, because I too buy gas and heat my home. The truth is the only way we can change this is to find alternative energy and more efficient ways to use oil. If we nationalize the oil industry, it is not going to change the long term problem. If we elect a democratic house, senate and president, it still is not going to change the long term direction. Al Gore wrote a book (I think it was about 10 yrs ago) that forecasted this exact situation we are faced with today. It is time to face the facts, oil is a finite resource and we are using it up very fast. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Well....at least we know that the vehicles from the big 3 will be gone within a few years. As far as the figures for the big trucks, I think you have to subtract those sold to people who actually MUST have such vehicles for their work. That would leave us with real numbers for the yahoos who buy "a hemi" just because they feel like it. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, I know you prefer to talk to the experienced salepeople to determine buying patterns, but I found it easier to look at sales history. These gas guzzlers purchased in 2004 will continue to guzzle gas for the next 15 - 20 yrs. Best-selling vehicles Car First-half 2004 sales Base price . Ford F-Series 432,969 $19,920 . Chevrolet Silverado 322,907 $19,485 . Dodge Ram pickup 223,609 $20,365 . Toyota Camry 213,625 $19,560 . Honda Accord 192,106 $16,390 . Ford Explorer 168,059 $23,690 . Honda Civic 162,483 $13,500 . Ford Taurus 144,035 $20,320 . Chevrolet Impala 139,460 22,395 . Dodge Caravan 131,367 $18,995 "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg). "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. |
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, As China continues to expand it manufacture capacity and it's citizens continue to increase their consumption of oil, the price of oil will continue to increase. I hate this as much as you do, because I too buy gas and heat my home. The truth is the only way we can change this is to find alternative energy and more efficient ways to use oil. If we nationalize the oil industry, it is not going to change the long term problem. If we elect a democratic house, senate and president, it still is not going to change the long term direction. Al Gore wrote a book (I think it was about 10 yrs ago) that forecasted this exact situation we are faced with today. It is time to face the facts, oil is a finite resource and we are using it up very fast. With the increase in the cost of oil, alternative energy sources become more economically viable. When they become more economically viable, more will be produced.....funny how capitalism can solve the problem :-) "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Well....at least we know that the vehicles from the big 3 will be gone within a few years. As far as the figures for the big trucks, I think you have to subtract those sold to people who actually MUST have such vehicles for their work. That would leave us with real numbers for the yahoos who buy "a hemi" just because they feel like it. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, I know you prefer to talk to the experienced salepeople to determine buying patterns, but I found it easier to look at sales history. These gas guzzlers purchased in 2004 will continue to guzzle gas for the next 15 - 20 yrs. Best-selling vehicles Car First-half 2004 sales Base price . Ford F-Series 432,969 $19,920 . Chevrolet Silverado 322,907 $19,485 . Dodge Ram pickup 223,609 $20,365 . Toyota Camry 213,625 $19,560 . Honda Accord 192,106 $16,390 . Ford Explorer 168,059 $23,690 . Honda Civic 162,483 $13,500 . Ford Taurus 144,035 $20,320 . Chevrolet Impala 139,460 22,395 . Dodge Caravan 131,367 $18,995 "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg). "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. |
|
Harry Krause wrote:
It's not such a stretch. Not only is the Bush family profiteering from the increase in prices, its warmongering has added to world uncertainty and that has impacted prices, too. Also, Bush has neither done nor even suggested anything that would alleviate prices or the unholy profits Big Oil is making. Further, the incompetent Bush Administration is doing about everything it can to annoy Hugo Chavez. You did see his comment last week: Chavez makes US oil export threat Oil exports to the US could stop amid growing tensions between the two countries, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has said. He described recent US government actions as "aggressive" in a speech at a youth festival in Caracas. As a result, Venezuelan oil "instead of going to the United States, could go elsewhere," he said. Venezuela exports about 1.3 million barrels a day to the US and is the world's fifth largest oil producer. Tensions between the two countries have escalated since President Chavez accused the US Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) of spying on his government. Washington denies the charge and has accused Caracas of failing to co-operate in the fight against drug-trafficking. On Friday the Venezuelan government withdrew diplomatic immunity from DEA agents working in the country in response to a US decision to revoke the visas of six Venezuelan officials based in Washington. Venezuela is an important transport route for cocaine from neighbouring Colombia, which produces 80% of the world's supply. --- If Chavez turns off the spigot, you'll start to see violence at the gas pump. And wait until homeowners get their home heating bills this winter. Bush will be hanging in effigy, if that is still legal, all over America. Thanks Harry..you've given us a good idea. The US has been screwing Canada around on a 'bogus' softwood lumber complaint. Even when we win a ruling..Dubya's gov't just brushes it aside. We're tired of being bullied. Imagine what happens when we decide to sell our natural gas and oil to China instead of south. The US gov't today is the greatest threat to international peace. http://tinyurl.com/82hno |
Your explanation of futures is largely accurate, except that each time
they're bid up, the price at the pumps rises. This should infuriate you. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, Oil futures are based upon the best guess of it's future worth. They do not determine what someone will actually pay for the oil in the future. If oil futures are bid up to $120 a barrel, that does not mean that will be the market price when the future is due. It is normally that the price of commodity will not be the same price as that on a futures contract. The difference is the profit or lose realized by the person holding the futures contract. While it is easy to hold stock certificates in a bank, when it comes time to pay off on your futures contract, most people have to sell the oil, they do not have empty tankers sitting around to hold the oil waiting for a better price. They will have to sell the oil at the market price, which is determined by supply and demand. Trust me, if the US reduced it consumption by 25% and China reduced it's consumption by 25% we would see one hell of a drop in oil prices. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... True, but this does not address the current issue: The price of oil, as it stands today, is not related to supply or demand. It is where it is because the price has been bid up to current levels based purely on speculation. This is no different than the way tech stocks were inflated all out of proportion a few years ago. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, As China continues to expand it manufacture capacity and it's citizens continue to increase their consumption of oil, the price of oil will continue to increase. I hate this as much as you do, because I too buy gas and heat my home. The truth is the only way we can change this is to find alternative energy and more efficient ways to use oil. If we nationalize the oil industry, it is not going to change the long term problem. If we elect a democratic house, senate and president, it still is not going to change the long term direction. Al Gore wrote a book (I think it was about 10 yrs ago) that forecasted this exact situation we are faced with today. It is time to face the facts, oil is a finite resource and we are using it up very fast. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Well....at least we know that the vehicles from the big 3 will be gone within a few years. As far as the figures for the big trucks, I think you have to subtract those sold to people who actually MUST have such vehicles for their work. That would leave us with real numbers for the yahoos who buy "a hemi" just because they feel like it. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, I know you prefer to talk to the experienced salepeople to determine buying patterns, but I found it easier to look at sales history. These gas guzzlers purchased in 2004 will continue to guzzle gas for the next 15 - 20 yrs. Best-selling vehicles Car First-half 2004 sales Base price . Ford F-Series 432,969 $19,920 . Chevrolet Silverado 322,907 $19,485 . Dodge Ram pickup 223,609 $20,365 . Toyota Camry 213,625 $19,560 . Honda Accord 192,106 $16,390 . Ford Explorer 168,059 $23,690 . Honda Civic 162,483 $13,500 . Ford Taurus 144,035 $20,320 . Chevrolet Impala 139,460 22,395 . Dodge Caravan 131,367 $18,995 "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg). "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. |
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, Oil futures are based upon the best guess of it's future worth. They do not determine what someone will actually pay for the oil in the future. If oil futures are bid up to $120 a barrel, that does not mean that will be the market price when the future is due. It is normally that the price of commodity will not be the same price as that on a futures contract. The difference is the profit or lose realized by the person holding the futures contract. While it is easy to hold stock certificates in a bank, when it comes time to pay off on your futures contract, most people have to sell the oil, they do not have empty tankers sitting around to hold the oil waiting for a better price. They will have to sell the oil at the market price, which is determined by supply and demand. Trust me, if the US reduced it consumption by 25% and China reduced it's consumption by 25% we would see one hell of a drop in oil prices. Claiming that futures markets were the same as the stock market bubble is just pure ignorance. Futures markets are basically legalized gambling. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... True, but this does not address the current issue: The price of oil, as it stands today, is not related to supply or demand. It is where it is because the price has been bid up to current levels based purely on speculation. This is no different than the way tech stocks were inflated all out of proportion a few years ago. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, As China continues to expand it manufacture capacity and it's citizens continue to increase their consumption of oil, the price of oil will continue to increase. I hate this as much as you do, because I too buy gas and heat my home. The truth is the only way we can change this is to find alternative energy and more efficient ways to use oil. If we nationalize the oil industry, it is not going to change the long term problem. If we elect a democratic house, senate and president, it still is not going to change the long term direction. Al Gore wrote a book (I think it was about 10 yrs ago) that forecasted this exact situation we are faced with today. It is time to face the facts, oil is a finite resource and we are using it up very fast. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Well....at least we know that the vehicles from the big 3 will be gone within a few years. As far as the figures for the big trucks, I think you have to subtract those sold to people who actually MUST have such vehicles for their work. That would leave us with real numbers for the yahoos who buy "a hemi" just because they feel like it. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, I know you prefer to talk to the experienced salepeople to determine buying patterns, but I found it easier to look at sales history. These gas guzzlers purchased in 2004 will continue to guzzle gas for the next 15 - 20 yrs. Best-selling vehicles Car First-half 2004 sales Base price . Ford F-Series 432,969 $19,920 . Chevrolet Silverado 322,907 $19,485 . Dodge Ram pickup 223,609 $20,365 . Toyota Camry 213,625 $19,560 . Honda Accord 192,106 $16,390 . Ford Explorer 168,059 $23,690 . Honda Civic 162,483 $13,500 . Ford Taurus 144,035 $20,320 . Chevrolet Impala 139,460 22,395 . Dodge Caravan 131,367 $18,995 "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg). "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. |
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... The confusion began here when you said consumers would not buy fuel efficient vehicles until this that or the other thing happened. I pointed out that these vehicles exist and are selling nicely already. This is not an absolute statement, since it should be obvious that MORE of these vehicles will be sold as fuel prices increase, and as the current crop of still-useful vehicles ages and needs replacement. It did NOT disagree with anything you said in your last paragraph beginning with "I can't figure out...". One exception, though: Oil prices are largely disconnected from supply and demand. If you believe otherwise, you are not familiar with how daily prices are REALLY pegged by speculators. The price increases of the past 12 months are wildly out of proportion to changes in supply & demand. If you take into accounts futures markets, they are not disconnected at that point... they are relative |
Jim Carter wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... "We understand that Venezuela has underground storage facilities with billions of gallons of toxic, combustible materials and a well developed plan to make this material available to incendiary factions within the borders of the US homeland" That ought to about do it. :-) I am still laughing at that one!!!!! You come up with the greatest lines I have ever read!!! Jim Don't laugh too hard Jim. With the crew running the US gov't...we could see that line used against Canada. |
"Don White" wrote in message ... Jim Carter wrote: wrote in message oups.com... "We understand that Venezuela has underground storage facilities with billions of gallons of toxic, combustible materials and a well developed plan to make this material available to incendiary factions within the borders of the US homeland" That ought to about do it. :-) I am still laughing at that one!!!!! You come up with the greatest lines I have ever read!!! Jim Don't laugh too hard Jim. With the crew running the US gov't...we could see that line used against Canada. Or......Louisiana or New Jersey. |
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Well....at least we know that the vehicles from the big 3 will be gone within a few years. As far as the figures for the big trucks, I think you have to subtract those sold to people who actually MUST have such vehicles for their work. That would leave us with real numbers for the yahoos who buy "a hemi" just because they feel like it. I love the way you cut on the Big 3 - yet their JD powers long term reliability are similar compared to Toyota and Honda... I own Toyotas, but it doesnt mean I wouldn't buy again from the Big 3... saying that they will be gone is silly.... someone might trade them in, but i can guarantee you that unless they are in some major accident, they will not be junked in 3 years... |
"Dan J.S." wrote in message ... "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... The confusion began here when you said consumers would not buy fuel efficient vehicles until this that or the other thing happened. I pointed out that these vehicles exist and are selling nicely already. This is not an absolute statement, since it should be obvious that MORE of these vehicles will be sold as fuel prices increase, and as the current crop of still-useful vehicles ages and needs replacement. It did NOT disagree with anything you said in your last paragraph beginning with "I can't figure out...". One exception, though: Oil prices are largely disconnected from supply and demand. If you believe otherwise, you are not familiar with how daily prices are REALLY pegged by speculators. The price increases of the past 12 months are wildly out of proportion to changes in supply & demand. If you take into accounts futures markets, they are not disconnected at that point... they are relative Fine, but that's like saying the more chicken YOU eat, the more often I will mow my lawn. I can choose to mow in such a way that the frequency is absolutely correlated to your chicken consumption, but the two are NOT related in the real world. |
It does seem too simple for some.
"P. Fritz" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, As China continues to expand it manufacture capacity and it's citizens continue to increase their consumption of oil, the price of oil will continue to increase. I hate this as much as you do, because I too buy gas and heat my home. The truth is the only way we can change this is to find alternative energy and more efficient ways to use oil. If we nationalize the oil industry, it is not going to change the long term problem. If we elect a democratic house, senate and president, it still is not going to change the long term direction. Al Gore wrote a book (I think it was about 10 yrs ago) that forecasted this exact situation we are faced with today. It is time to face the facts, oil is a finite resource and we are using it up very fast. With the increase in the cost of oil, alternative energy sources become more economically viable. When they become more economically viable, more will be produced.....funny how capitalism can solve the problem :-) "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Well....at least we know that the vehicles from the big 3 will be gone within a few years. As far as the figures for the big trucks, I think you have to subtract those sold to people who actually MUST have such vehicles for their work. That would leave us with real numbers for the yahoos who buy "a hemi" just because they feel like it. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, I know you prefer to talk to the experienced salepeople to determine buying patterns, but I found it easier to look at sales history. These gas guzzlers purchased in 2004 will continue to guzzle gas for the next 15 - 20 yrs. Best-selling vehicles Car First-half 2004 sales Base price . Ford F-Series 432,969 $19,920 . Chevrolet Silverado 322,907 $19,485 . Dodge Ram pickup 223,609 $20,365 . Toyota Camry 213,625 $19,560 . Honda Accord 192,106 $16,390 . Ford Explorer 168,059 $23,690 . Honda Civic 162,483 $13,500 . Ford Taurus 144,035 $20,320 . Chevrolet Impala 139,460 22,395 . Dodge Caravan 131,367 $18,995 "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg). "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. |
"P. Fritz" wrote in message
... Claiming that futures markets were the same as the stock market bubble is just pure ignorance. Futures markets are basically legalized gambling. Really? Perhaps you can explain how a stock can trade at a P/E ratio of, say, 500, with little or no cash on hand and no profits in sight for at least a few years, and how that's not gambling. |
"Dan J.S." wrote in message ... "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Well....at least we know that the vehicles from the big 3 will be gone within a few years. As far as the figures for the big trucks, I think you have to subtract those sold to people who actually MUST have such vehicles for their work. That would leave us with real numbers for the yahoos who buy "a hemi" just because they feel like it. I love the way you cut on the Big 3 - yet their JD powers long term reliability are similar compared to Toyota and Honda... I own Toyotas, but it doesnt mean I wouldn't buy again from the Big 3... saying that they will be gone is silly.... someone might trade them in, but i can guarantee you that unless they are in some major accident, they will not be junked in 3 years... OK, then. |
Doug,
I hate it, but I know if the govt. got involved in the oil industry it would be more inefficient than today, and in the long run we all would be screwed. I can remember when Jimmy Carter was in office and credit card companies were charging 21-25% interest on their cards. Everyone was screaming, the govt. needs to step in and correct this problem. Well, very soon after the boost in interest competition corrected the problem. Competition will correct the problem much quicker and more efficiently than a governmental bureaucracy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Your explanation of futures is largely accurate, except that each time they're bid up, the price at the pumps rises. This should infuriate you. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, Oil futures are based upon the best guess of it's future worth. They do not determine what someone will actually pay for the oil in the future. If oil futures are bid up to $120 a barrel, that does not mean that will be the market price when the future is due. It is normally that the price of commodity will not be the same price as that on a futures contract. The difference is the profit or lose realized by the person holding the futures contract. While it is easy to hold stock certificates in a bank, when it comes time to pay off on your futures contract, most people have to sell the oil, they do not have empty tankers sitting around to hold the oil waiting for a better price. They will have to sell the oil at the market price, which is determined by supply and demand. Trust me, if the US reduced it consumption by 25% and China reduced it's consumption by 25% we would see one hell of a drop in oil prices. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... True, but this does not address the current issue: The price of oil, as it stands today, is not related to supply or demand. It is where it is because the price has been bid up to current levels based purely on speculation. This is no different than the way tech stocks were inflated all out of proportion a few years ago. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, As China continues to expand it manufacture capacity and it's citizens continue to increase their consumption of oil, the price of oil will continue to increase. I hate this as much as you do, because I too buy gas and heat my home. The truth is the only way we can change this is to find alternative energy and more efficient ways to use oil. If we nationalize the oil industry, it is not going to change the long term problem. If we elect a democratic house, senate and president, it still is not going to change the long term direction. Al Gore wrote a book (I think it was about 10 yrs ago) that forecasted this exact situation we are faced with today. It is time to face the facts, oil is a finite resource and we are using it up very fast. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Well....at least we know that the vehicles from the big 3 will be gone within a few years. As far as the figures for the big trucks, I think you have to subtract those sold to people who actually MUST have such vehicles for their work. That would leave us with real numbers for the yahoos who buy "a hemi" just because they feel like it. "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, I know you prefer to talk to the experienced salepeople to determine buying patterns, but I found it easier to look at sales history. These gas guzzlers purchased in 2004 will continue to guzzle gas for the next 15 - 20 yrs. Best-selling vehicles Car First-half 2004 sales Base price . Ford F-Series 432,969 $19,920 . Chevrolet Silverado 322,907 $19,485 . Dodge Ram pickup 223,609 $20,365 . Toyota Camry 213,625 $19,560 . Honda Accord 192,106 $16,390 . Ford Explorer 168,059 $23,690 . Honda Civic 162,483 $13,500 . Ford Taurus 144,035 $20,320 . Chevrolet Impala 139,460 22,395 . Dodge Caravan 131,367 $18,995 "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg). "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Doug, What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees. Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Juan Valdez" wrote in message ... Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat. They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so. That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3. |
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