Ted Hartford wrote:
On 14 Aug 2005, wrote:
Mr Wizzard wrote:
Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

...'Nuff said.


Contributed to medical industry?

How about invented the concept of modern medicine in the first place?
An Arab medical text was *the* standard practice manual throughout
Europe and Asia for about 150 years and helped pull European doctors
out of the voo-doo heebie-jeebie blame it on evil-spirits dark ages.


Contributed to Space Science?

How about invented the concept of modern astronomy? Invented advanced
math?


Contributed to Environmental conservation? Does a few thousand years of
working with nature to renew and cultivate the fields in the Nile Delta
count?

Contributed to Computer Science? Would the invention of our numbering
system, as well as algebra and (that's an Arab word,al-gebra) other
advanced math concepts count?

Contributed to religious tolerance? Remember, the terrorists represent
mainstream Islam only as much as the KKK represents mainstream
Christianity. Both cite holy writ as justification for attacking and
murdering folks who don't conform to the small group supposedly
anointed by their screwed up version of God.

Mainstream Muslims regard Jews and Christians as "people of the Book,"
and believe that a devout Jew or a devout Christian can be admitted to
whatever sort of Paradisic Disneyland the Muslims imagine they will
inhabit after death. Muslims are taught, and the Quran demands, that
Jesus, Moses, and Abraham be honored and respected. The Quran calls
Jesus an anointed messenger from God. Sounds like a lot more "religious
tolerance" than you'll hear extended to Islam by many right wing
Americans these days.

In mainstream Islam, the term "infidel" is more exactly applied to
people who are not monotheists. Jews and Christians are only called
"infidels" by the most radical elements of Islam.

Google up "Jesus in the Quran". You might find it surprising.

Why were the Crusaders of the 10th and 11th Centuries called
"infidels"? Because many of them were. The Pope would call for a
crusade, and most of the land owners and rulers needed to at least give
lip service to Christianity to remain in power, but among the ranks of
footmen and other "grunts" there were a lot of folks still openly
following the Old Religion.

Yes, there are exhortations to violence in the Quran. Just as there are
exhortations to violence, murder, and even genocide in the Holy Bible.
(Check out the book of Joshua. If you say, "you have to take that it
context", I would ask "why we must take Joshua in context but then
insist on reading the Quran out of context?")

Any white American can vacation in a Muslim country, and many routinely
do. It's best not to act the fool while there, of course, and to
respect the tenents of the host culture just as one would when visiting
anywhere else. If one walks down the street drinking from an open beer
bottle, gooses the women walking by, and has a smut magazine rolled up
under one's arm there's going to be some serious trouble- but would
that be the fault of the Muslim society or the ignorance and arrogance
of the American visitor?

"nuff said"? :-)

Are you saying that the advances made in the middle east in terms of math,
science, etc. came after 600AD when Islam was founded? The middle east
didn't convert to Islam overnight so we must be referring to advances made
after 600AD.


The first organized school of medicine, the first attempt to establish
something we would today call a "hospital", and the practice of
examining propsective physicians against a standard of required
knowledge were all concepts that were introduced after 700 AD by
Muslims.

Remember that one of the leading "European" powers (Spain) was about
half Muslim for several hundred years prior to 1492. The northen tribes
in Spain were primarily farmers and shepherds, with the seat of
knowledge and culture
clearly centered in the Muslim south during periods of time when many
early advances were made in Spanish knowledge and culture.

Westerners tend to write off about 700 years of history as the "dark
ages."
We would do well to remember that the Catholic Church did not
suppress/distort/forbid the pursuit of knowledge throughout much of the
civilized world during that period of time. While Europe was pedaling
backwards as rapidly as possible, the Arab world (definitely post
Muhammed)
continued to move forward in research and education.

Here's a paragraph from a website (buzzle.com) that expresses the
concept more succinctly:



From this inherent lack of understanding has been borne a naivete
regarding the importance and influence of Arab and Muslim culture on
the Western world and humankind in general. One of the great oversights
of Western history has been the practice of referring to the period
from roughly 800 AD to 1500 AD as the Dark Ages, when in fact, great
discoveries were being made throughout this period in the Arab world.
During this period, all scientific texts were written in Arabic and it
was the discoveries and of the Arab thinkers of this period that laid
the very foundations from which the Renaissance would emerge. Advances
in mathematics as well as the scientific method of detailed and
systematic observation of natural occurrences would contribute to the
period of intellectual growth that propelled the Western world through
the Industrial Revolution.

Bottom line: Only the propagandizers on the far right and their
kool-aid drinking disciples fall for the line that Muslims haven't
contributed to modern society. That would be like claiming that
Alexander Graham Bell didn't contribute to modern communications or
that Benjamin Franklin contributed nothing to our understanding of the
nature of electricity. It's certainly ironic that people who are
totally uneducated about the historic contributions of Muslims and
Arabs in the fields of math, science, and medicine often try to
characterize Muslims as slightly sub-human because they are
"uneducated" or "haven't contributed". :-)

Mr Wizzard wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Mr Wizzard wrote:
Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

...'Nuff said.


Contributed to medical industry?

How about invented the concept of modern medicine in the first place?
An Arab medical text was *the* standard practice manual throughout
Europe and Asia for about 150 years and helped pull European doctors
out of the voo-doo heebie-jeebie blame it on evil-spirits dark ages.

Thats good. Thanks. See? - yer doing your part
in breaking down these stigma's flating around.





Contributed to Space Science?

How about invented the concept of modern astronomy? Invented advanced
math?

Who, when, and what exactally?



If you're actually curious, not just trolling for an argument, you
might find some of the following comments helpful:

(from www.enhg.org)


Development of Arab Scientific Interest
The Arabs once ruled an empire that stretched from central Asia to
Spain. This empire reached its zenith between the eighth and
thirteenth centuries AD. Arab scholars of that period knew more about
science and the arts than any other contemporary peoples. They also
translated many classical (Greco-Roman) works of literature and
science.

In fact generally speaking the Muslims were very interested in books
and learning. Rhazes (al Razi-C. ninth century), Vienna (Ibn Sina-c.
tenth century) and Averroes (1126-1198) were among the best known of
Muslim philosophers. They studied the great Greek writers, particularly
Plato and Aristotle. Their goal seems to have been (perhaps rather
surprisingly) to try to find ways to reconcile the ideas of the ancient
Greeks with the teachings of Islam.

Consequently, universities were established in the leading Muslim
cities of Baghdad, Damascus, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Cairo and Cordoba.
Further, the book business flourished. In universities, palaces and the
homes of wealthy merchants could be found large and impressive
libraries. By 1250 AD the most valuable material in Islamic libraries
had become available to European scholars in translation.

The latter point was of great historical importance; eventually much of
the scientific knowledge that the Muslims had gathered from the ancient
classical world and from India was passed to the west, through Spain
and southern Italy, around the time of the Crusades. At that time most
European scholars realized the tremendous scientific and technological
superiority of the Islamic world. And eagerly sought translations of
Muslim works.

Thus these Greek and Arab writings that flowed into Europe, especially
after the beginning of the twelfth century, made up a rich legacy of
scientific and philosophical knowledge. For example, Arabic (Hindi)
numerals and the zero symbol made possible a decimal system of
computation. Also, Euclidean geometry, together with algebra and
trigonometry from the Arab world, greatly increased the scope and
accuracy of mathematics, especially useful for later astronomical
applications during and after the Renaissance.

This transfer of information occurred just in time, for from about 1350
onwards, the Mongols in the east and the Christians in Spain began
systematically to destroy Islamic books in a wholesale manner, as part
of their anti-Muslim wave of feeling at that time

Fortunately, a large number of Islamic books survived in Egypt, Persia
and India, from where most of our knowledge of Muslim civilization has
originated. As a result, every present-day intellectual disciple owes
a debt to the scientific heritage of Islam

Arab Astronomy and Navigation
Astronomy
Muslim scholars made significant contributions towards the development
of many 'modern' sciences, such as physics, chemistry, medicine,
mathematics and astronomy. They were particularly interested in the
latter.

Using the work of the second century Greek astronomer Ptolemy as a
basis, Muslim thinkers greatly increased man's knowledge of
astronomy. Indeed, during the Middle Ages, when European science
underwent a decline, it was the Arabs who preserved the astronomical
heritage.

In some respects this achievement may have been inevitable, since
knowledge of the stars was essential for navigational purposes and for
telling the times of prayers and religious festivals. In other words,
being adventurous traders and mariners and temporally precise
worshippers, the Arabs needed to study astronomy other than for its
purely scientific interest, though undoubtedly such an interest
existed. Consequently they constructed many observatories and
improved certain measuring instruments such as the astrolabe for
determining and recording the positions and movements of celestial
bodies.

Foremost amongst early Arab scientists was al Khawarzimi, who lived in
Baghdad during the ninth century. His work was mainly concerned with
astronomy and mathematics. In fact, his mathematical treatise was the
first to employ what westerners term 'Arabic numerals' (which were
really borrowed from the Indians, as explained earlier. Although it
seems most likely that the Indians invented the zero symbol or cipher
('sifr' means empty in Arabic), al Khwarzimi is attributed with
greatly developing its use n mathematics to simplify multiplication and
division. He also gave a systematic account of algebra and geometry,
for use in solving practical astronomical and navigational problems.

Other notable Arab astronomers were al Battam (d. 929), al Zarquli (d.
1087) and Omar al Khayyami (d. 1123). The latter was a Persian
mathematician who devised a very accurate calendar based on
astronomical observations. It was reputed to have been more accurate
than the Gregorian one we use today, with an error factor of only one
day in 3770, rather than the Gregorian's one in 33303.

Incidentally, the mathematics used for astronomical calculations by the
Arabs involved the use of degrees and minutes of arc-first developed by
the Sumerians, and later developed extensively by the Babylonians,
millennia earlier. The direct expansion and inclusion of this system
into Euclidean geometry is the main reason why we measure angles in
degrees, minutes and seconds nowadays (not to mention basing our system
of measuring time upon it also).

Arab interest in astronomy was also continued in Moghul India, where
massive observatories were built in Jaipur, for example. It is
interesting to consider that some modern historians think that the
writings of the great Copernicus (who was the first westerner to
propose an heliocentric planetary system) show much that could be
attributable to these early Muslim astronomers.

Navigation
When the first Portuguese navigators, like Vasco da Gama, sailed along
the East African coast and around the Arabian Peninsula they
encountered a well-established Arab seafaring tradition, utilizing an
advanced navigational science dating from the eighth century.
Techniques used were basically simple, but never the less by the
eleventh century Arab mariners had adapted the Chinese discovery of the
magnetic properties of lodestone for use as a compass at sea. Earlier
methods had relied on steering by Polaris, the 'North' star, and
'Kamal', a kind of simple astrolabe used to reckon relative
latitude. In fact, it is believed that Europeans first acquired a
knowledge of the magnetic compass and the astrolabe (later to become
the sextant) from Muslim sailors.

The renowned Arab navigator Shihab al Ahmed bin Majid al Najdi
(c.1500), at the height of Arab navigational prowess, wrote a
masterpiece entitled "the Book of Profitable Things concerning the
First Principles and Rules of Navigation" which featured much
astronomical observational data, amongst other things nautical.

Part of the legacy of this period include the fact that many of the
brightest stars still bear Arabic names, allocated to them by Arab
astronomers and navigators, for example Betelgeuse, Deneb, Aldebaran
and Altair. These names, along with numerous other facets of Arab
scientific nomenclature and mathematics, passed into Europe during the
Renaissance.

However, this period, marked by the 'collision' of two great
maritime powers - the European and the Arabian - was the beginning
of the era of European ascendancy and the decline of Arab commercial
dominance in Middle Eastern and Oriental seas.

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:25:56 -0400, Jeff Rigby wrote:


You want to start a new thread on this Harry? The middle class has been
overtaxed since Johnson. Our standard of living (middle class) has been
reduced to the point that it is now necessary for both parents to work,
primarily because of Taxes. The government takes a larger and larger
share of the pie.

Uh, actually, Federal Taxes have remained remarkably constant, at least as
a percent of GDP, for over 50 years. 18% +- 1

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFa....cfm?Docid=200

I've mentioned this before; but I guess it need saying; Johnson and the
Democrats were told that they can deficit spend and the money they spend
would be paid back by taxpayers in the form of an increased tax called
brackett creap. Simply explained; deficit spending causes inflation, then
because of inflation we are all getting more dollars and because of our
"income leveling" income tax schedule we start paying more of our income in
taxes.

The middle class usually doesn't have as may writeoffs as those who make
larger saleries so we end up paying a larger share of the taxes collected
by the government.



You can not lay this all at the current presidents feet. A small
percentage yes since his priorities changed after 9/11.

Both parties are guilty, Republicans can take a lesser share of the blame
only because they have been in power for a shorter time.

Bill McKee wrote:
Better look up the facts again.


Really?

What "facts" do you think indicate that Christians have NOT set off more
bombs in America than Muslims? All you have to do is count abortion
clinic bombings, no need to look further back than the last decade.

Of course, fundie Christian hate-mongers have been here in the US for a
lot longer. Give the Muslims 200 years or so, I'm sure they'll catch up.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Bill McKee wrote:
Better look up the facts again.
Really?
What "facts" do you think indicate that Christians have NOT set off more
bombs in America than Muslims? All you have to do is count abortion
clinic bombings, no need to look further back than the last decade.
Of course, fundie Christian hate-mongers have been here in the US for a
lot longer. Give the Muslims 200 years or so, I'm sure they'll catch up.
DSK

Also, don't forget about the Christian Fundamentalist, McVeigh, who bombed
the Federal Building in Oklahoma.
(Reference: Author Jessica Stern and her book "Terror in the name of God")

Jim Carter
Bayfield

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Bill McKee wrote:
Better look up the facts again.


Really?

What "facts" do you think indicate that Christians have NOT set off more
bombs in America than Muslims? All you have to do is count abortion clinic
bombings, no need to look further back than the last decade.

Of course, fundie Christian hate-mongers have been here in the US for a
lot longer. Give the Muslims 200 years or so, I'm sure they'll catch up.

DSK


The statement was about facts. Not who bombed more in America. As to Right
Wing vs. Left Wing, the Left has set off many bombs also. Maybe even more
than the right. Now how many Muslim bombings in the US? Include using
airplanes as fuel bombs. Also include the ALF, SLA, Black Panthers, and a
host of other leftist groups.

Bill McKee wrote:
The statement was about facts.

Yep.

... Not who bombed more in America.

Umm, the statement that I read was that Christians have set off more
bombs in the U.S.

That happens to be true, although very offensive to many.



... Now how many Muslim bombings in the US? Include using
airplanes as fuel bombs. Also include the ALF, SLA, Black Panthers, and a
host of other leftist groups.

Are Muslims all Leftist? Are Leftists all Muslims? The Black Panthers
might include a large percent of Muslims, but 1- how many bombings did
they carry out and 2- are they an avowedly Muslim group?

BTW the KKK proclaims itself as a Christian organization, so I
personally don't see an inconsistancy including them.

BTW #2 the SLA did not set off any bombs.

Facts, Bill, facts.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Bill McKee wrote:
The statement was about facts.

Yep.

... Not who bombed more in America.

Umm, the statement that I read was that Christians have set off more bombs
in the U.S.

That happens to be true, although very offensive to many.



... Now how many Muslim bombings in the US? Include using
airplanes as fuel bombs. Also include the ALF, SLA, Black Panthers, and
a host of other leftist groups.

Are Muslims all Leftist? Are Leftists all Muslims? The Black Panthers
might include a large percent of Muslims, but 1- how many bombings did
they carry out and 2- are they an avowedly Muslim group?

BTW the KKK proclaims itself as a Christian organization, so I personally
don't see an inconsistancy including them.

BTW #2 the SLA did not set off any bombs.

Facts, Bill, facts.

DSK


You say there was only one Muslim bomb. Wrong.

The SLA planted bombs in at least 2 SF police stations that were found.
They bombed the Emeryville PD station, they bombed the Marin County
courthouse. The also failed to blow up some LAPD cars. Bombs did not
explode. Wrong again.

Facts, DSK, facts!

KarenGreer wrote:
When did the Christians accept the KKK into Christianity?




I don't think it's actually put up to a vote.
The KKK has just as much right to claim they are Christian as does
(did) Mother Teresa, the Pope, and the murderers of doctors who perform
abortions.
Same holds true for the extremists and terrorist referencing Islam. It
would be hard to think of a single faith where some fringe group had
never gone off on a militant tangent- and of course this plays into the
hands of certain people with a different agenda who are ever so quick
to say, "See, they *all* do that!"







"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Really? I'll bet there's been more bombs used by Christians in the U.S.
than by Muslim terrorists!!!


OMG. Unbelievable.


P. Fritz wrote:
No it isn't......it is just further proof why kevin remains the "King"


Well let's see... I hate to interrupt your high-fiving, but a breif look
at the facts is in order:

Bombs set off in the U.S. by Muslim terrorists: 1
Bombs set off in the U.S. by Christians... difficult to determine, partly
because of identity of "Christians," but it's safe to say that all
abortion clinic bombs have been set off by Christians, and the KKK is
avowedly Christian also.

So, now who is the idiot?

DSK

Bill McKee wrote:
You say there was only one Muslim bomb. Wrong.


OK, then give us a count.

And let's compare that number with the number of abortion clinic
bombings... and if you're still not convinced, we'll throw in the KKK
bombings.


The SLA planted bombs in at least 2 SF police stations that were found.
They bombed the Emeryville PD station, they bombed the Marin County
courthouse. The also failed to blow up some LAPD cars. Bombs did not
explode. Wrong again.

Facts, DSK, facts!


OK, didn't know about that... did it make the news outside of
California? I stand corrected, the SLA did plant some bombs... but
they're still totally a side issue as they were neither Muslim nor
Christian.

I like the introduction of facts into this discussion, can we fine-tune
it a little bit to *relevant* facts?

DSK