"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:27:11 -0700, "Mr Wizzard"
wrote:

Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

Hate to tell you this, but Moslems (or Muslims - take your pick) along
with the Hindus, invented the concept of zero. There is some dispute
about who invented it first, but it would appear that it may have been
a case of simultaneous invention, but some evidence indicates that the
Hindus came to it much later than the Pan-Arabian ethnic grouping.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 is called the Arab/Hindu (or Hindu/Arabic - all
depends on who you talk to) number system and without it, you wouldn't
have any of the above.

Curiously enough, it first appeared in the 1,000 BC in Babylon or as
we know it Iraq,by Babylonian mathematicians and/or astronomers. The
first "zero" was actually a blank so it would look something like 1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1_ 11 12, etc. It went from a blank to " at some point
(it's been a while - I'm doing this from memory). Eventually, sometime
around the 1st Century BC, a proper zero was developed, but went
through several iterations until it settled down to what we now know.

Curiously enough, Pan-European mathematicians/astronomers never
developed the concept until Arab traders brought it to Europe
somewhere around 8/900 AD. Europeans were using a positional notation
system, but it was confused and subject to royal fiat.

Why is zero so important? Couple of reasons. In the A/H number
system, zero is a place holder - example: 1101. However, it also is a
number - zero. So,as you can probably infer, 111 is very different
than 1101.

And I'm getting carried away. Let's just say that the positional
place-value system couldn't work without zero, that it was pretty much
invented by Moslems (or Muslims) concurrently with some other ethnic
groups and that, in fact, it took Arab traders to bring sense and
commerce to the Pan-European mercantile system leading, of course, to
the list you published above.


It was invented by Arabs who were NOT Muslims, the Muslim religion was not
invented yet! The argument is not that Arabs are inferior but that the
religion suppresses individuals so that a middle class can't develop. No
middle class and the development of an infrastructure never occurs.

Mr Wizzard wrote:
Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

...'Nuff said.


Contributed to medical industry?

How about invented the concept of modern medicine in the first place?
An Arab medical text was *the* standard practice manual throughout
Europe and Asia for about 150 years and helped pull European doctors
out of the voo-doo heebie-jeebie blame it on evil-spirits dark ages.


Contributed to Space Science?

How about invented the concept of modern astronomy? Invented advanced
math?


Contributed to Environmental conservation? Does a few thousand years of
working with nature to renew and cultivate the fields in the Nile Delta
count?

Contributed to Computer Science? Would the invention of our numbering
system, as well as algebra and (that's an Arab word,al-gebra) other
advanced math concepts count?

Contributed to religious tolerance? Remember, the terrorists represent
mainstream Islam only as much as the KKK represents mainstream
Christianity. Both cite holy writ as justification for attacking and
murdering folks who don't conform to the small group supposedly
anointed by their screwed up version of God.

Mainstream Muslims regard Jews and Christians as "people of the Book,"
and believe that a devout Jew or a devout Christian can be admitted to
whatever sort of Paradisic Disneyland the Muslims imagine they will
inhabit after death. Muslims are taught, and the Quran demands, that
Jesus, Moses, and Abraham be honored and respected. The Quran calls
Jesus an anointed messenger from God. Sounds like a lot more "religious
tolerance" than you'll hear extended to Islam by many right wing
Americans these days.

In mainstream Islam, the term "infidel" is more exactly applied to
people who are not monotheists. Jews and Christians are only called
"infidels" by the most radical elements of Islam.

Google up "Jesus in the Quran". You might find it surprising.

Why were the Crusaders of the 10th and 11th Centuries called
"infidels"? Because many of them were. The Pope would call for a
crusade, and most of the land owners and rulers needed to at least give
lip service to Christianity to remain in power, but among the ranks of
footmen and other "grunts" there were a lot of folks still openly
following the Old Religion.

Yes, there are exhortations to violence in the Quran. Just as there are
exhortations to violence, murder, and even genocide in the Holy Bible.
(Check out the book of Joshua. If you say, "you have to take that it
context", I would ask "why we must take Joshua in context but then
insist on reading the Quran out of context?")

Any white American can vacation in a Muslim country, and many routinely
do. It's best not to act the fool while there, of course, and to
respect the tenents of the host culture just as one would when visiting
anywhere else. If one walks down the street drinking from an open beer
bottle, gooses the women walking by, and has a smut magazine rolled up
under one's arm there's going to be some serious trouble- but would
that be the fault of the Muslim society or the ignorance and arrogance
of the American visitor?

"nuff said"? :-)

wrote in message
oups.com...

Mr Wizzard wrote:
Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

...'Nuff said.


Contributed to medical industry?

How about invented the concept of modern medicine in the first place?
An Arab medical text was *the* standard practice manual throughout
Europe and Asia for about 150 years and helped pull European doctors
out of the voo-doo heebie-jeebie blame it on evil-spirits dark ages.

Thats good. Thanks. See? - yer doing your part
in breaking down these stigma's flating around.





Contributed to Space Science?

How about invented the concept of modern astronomy? Invented advanced
math?

Who, when, and what exactally?


Contributed to Environmental conservation? Does a few thousand years of
working with nature to renew and cultivate the fields in the Nile Delta
count?

What year(s) ?


Contributed to Computer Science? Would the invention of our numbering
system, as well as algebra and (that's an Arab word,al-gebra) other
advanced math concepts count?

No, since algebra was around before the word "computer"
ever hit the airwaves. Abacus, yes, that was good. Look,
I admidt, I should have "qualified" my comments/questions
to an actual "time frame" - as in THIS centry. You know,
in the era that most know as "industrialization", ergo, AFTER
the discovery of middle Eastern oil. ...Seems that once oil
was discovered, the Arabs shut down all of their human
development, and shut out the rest of the world.


Contributed to religious tolerance? Remember, the terrorists represent
mainstream Islam only as much as the KKK represents mainstream
Christianity.

KKK was a rogue SMALL faction of white Amaricans,
and they wern't out to eliminate entire countries, and/or
religions. Nor was it a "State Sponsored" thing and taught
in schools. Militant Islam is a State sponsored thing.

Both cite holy writ as justification for attacking and
murdering folks who don't conform to the small group supposedly
anointed by their screwed up version of God.

Yer bing an appologist here again - might want to revisit that.



Mainstream Muslims regard Jews and Christians as "people of the Book,"
and believe that a devout Jew or a devout Christian can be admitted to
whatever sort of Paradisic Disneyland the Muslims imagine they will
inhabit after death. Muslims are taught, and the Quran demands, that
Jesus, Moses, and Abraham be honored and respected. The Quran calls
Jesus an anointed messenger from God. Sounds like a lot more "religious
tolerance" than you'll hear extended to Islam by many right wing
Americans these days.

In mainstream Islam, the term "infidel" is more exactly applied to
people who are not monotheists. Jews and Christians are only called
"infidels" by the most radical elements of Islam.

Google up "Jesus in the Quran". You might find it surprising.

Why were the Crusaders of the 10th and 11th Centuries called
"infidels"? Because many of them were. The Pope would call for a
crusade, and most of the land owners and rulers needed to at least give
lip service to Christianity to remain in power, but among the ranks of
footmen and other "grunts" there were a lot of folks still openly
following the Old Religion.

Yer being an appologist here again....
To prevent the discussion from getting
too muddled, and off the central point,
say you were right - thats even more to
my point! - We have EVOLVED to see
the light, why have the Arabs NOT?
Further, why do they refuse? Expecialy
when its now 2-oh-oh-FIVE for Gawd
sakes - its not like we're still in the dark ages.





Yes, there are exhortations to violence in the Quran.

Ah, so you see the problem, good, thats a start...


Just as there are
exhortations to violence, murder, and even genocide in the Holy Bible.

Oh yeah, here we go.. Of course.... more excuses.
This is all "appologistism" if I ever seen it.


(Check out the book of Joshua. If you say, "you have to take that it
context", I would ask "why we must take Joshua in context but then
insist on reading the Quran out of context?")

Yeah, yeah, so where are all the Christian homiside bombers?




Any white American can vacation in a Muslim country,

Can I go to Mecca, and Madeena? URL please ?



and many routinely
do. It's best not to act the fool while there,

Why not? Tollerant place "allow" this you know.


of course, and to
respect the tenents of the host culture just as one would when visiting
anywhere else. If one walks down the street drinking from an open beer
bottle, gooses the women walking by, and has a smut magazine rolled up
under one's arm there's going to be some serious trouble-

See, thats ****ed, That is why them places need Westernized.


but would
that be the fault of the Muslim society or the ignorance and arrogance
of the American visitor?

Thats the fault of THAT society - we tollerate THEIR
manorisms, and behaviours HERE, so wtf? We allow
them to prey 5 times a day, we allow them to bring
their prayer rugs to work (even encourage it), we allow
them to build mosques. and the like, so ca-mon dude,
be real here, will ya ?



"nuff said"? :-)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:57:28 -0700, Mr Wizzard wrote:


No, since algebra was around before the word "computer" ever hit the
airwaves. Abacus, yes, that was good. Look, I admidt, I should have
"qualified" my comments/questions to an actual "time frame" - as in THIS
centry. You know, in the era that most know as "industrialization", ergo,
AFTER the discovery of middle Eastern oil. ...Seems that once oil was
discovered, the Arabs shut down all of their human development, and shut
out the rest of the world.

Not really a fair comparison, is it? For most of this century, the Arab
world was being pillaged by those industrialized countries. For most of
this century, the Arab world were colonies of England and France or
part of the Ottoman Empire. Perhaps, a fairer question would be, what did
those industrial powers bring to the Arab world? I mean, besides death,
destruction, and absurd lines on a map.

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:57:28 -0700, Mr Wizzard wrote:


Not really a fair comparison, is it? For most of this century, the Arab
world was being pillaged by those industrialized countries.

Woe, woe, woe..... See? its *THIS* very (*VERY*) misguided
emotion-ridden mindsets that is at the *heart* of the entire issue.
Ain't nobody "pillaged" **** here buster! - No one came in by
force to "pillage" no oil from the Arabs. That an insult. What,
the South America countries were "pillaged" too? Man....
The Arab lands received a very lucrative profits from that oil.



For most of
this century, the Arab world were colonies of England and France or
part of the Ottoman Empire. Perhaps, a fairer question would be, what did
those industrial powers bring to the Arab world?

Wealth!!!! and LOTS of it too!. Take off them
rose-colored glasses - there is no shortage of flow
of money. And SEE? - this speaks DIRECTLY to
my point - they got SO much oil wealth for SO
little effort for SO long, that the incentives to do
anything else were vitually non existant.


I mean, besides death,
destruction, and absurd lines on a map.

"Absurd" lines on a map? Why are they
so "absurd"? What - should have just
been a free-for-all land grab ? So why is
it the fault of England, France, or Ottoman
empire for thease lines? - these Arab areas
could have done the same, they were not
handicaped in any way.

Mr Wizzard wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Mr Wizzard wrote:
Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

...'Nuff said.


Contributed to medical industry?

How about invented the concept of modern medicine in the first place?
An Arab medical text was *the* standard practice manual throughout
Europe and Asia for about 150 years and helped pull European doctors
out of the voo-doo heebie-jeebie blame it on evil-spirits dark ages.

Thats good. Thanks. See? - yer doing your part
in breaking down these stigma's flating around.





Contributed to Space Science?

How about invented the concept of modern astronomy? Invented advanced
math?

Who, when, and what exactally?



If you're actually curious, not just trolling for an argument, you
might find some of the following comments helpful:

(from www.enhg.org)


Development of Arab Scientific Interest
The Arabs once ruled an empire that stretched from central Asia to
Spain. This empire reached its zenith between the eighth and
thirteenth centuries AD. Arab scholars of that period knew more about
science and the arts than any other contemporary peoples. They also
translated many classical (Greco-Roman) works of literature and
science.

In fact generally speaking the Muslims were very interested in books
and learning. Rhazes (al Razi-C. ninth century), Vienna (Ibn Sina-c.
tenth century) and Averroes (1126-1198) were among the best known of
Muslim philosophers. They studied the great Greek writers, particularly
Plato and Aristotle. Their goal seems to have been (perhaps rather
surprisingly) to try to find ways to reconcile the ideas of the ancient
Greeks with the teachings of Islam.

Consequently, universities were established in the leading Muslim
cities of Baghdad, Damascus, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Cairo and Cordoba.
Further, the book business flourished. In universities, palaces and the
homes of wealthy merchants could be found large and impressive
libraries. By 1250 AD the most valuable material in Islamic libraries
had become available to European scholars in translation.

The latter point was of great historical importance; eventually much of
the scientific knowledge that the Muslims had gathered from the ancient
classical world and from India was passed to the west, through Spain
and southern Italy, around the time of the Crusades. At that time most
European scholars realized the tremendous scientific and technological
superiority of the Islamic world. And eagerly sought translations of
Muslim works.

Thus these Greek and Arab writings that flowed into Europe, especially
after the beginning of the twelfth century, made up a rich legacy of
scientific and philosophical knowledge. For example, Arabic (Hindi)
numerals and the zero symbol made possible a decimal system of
computation. Also, Euclidean geometry, together with algebra and
trigonometry from the Arab world, greatly increased the scope and
accuracy of mathematics, especially useful for later astronomical
applications during and after the Renaissance.

This transfer of information occurred just in time, for from about 1350
onwards, the Mongols in the east and the Christians in Spain began
systematically to destroy Islamic books in a wholesale manner, as part
of their anti-Muslim wave of feeling at that time

Fortunately, a large number of Islamic books survived in Egypt, Persia
and India, from where most of our knowledge of Muslim civilization has
originated. As a result, every present-day intellectual disciple owes
a debt to the scientific heritage of Islam

Arab Astronomy and Navigation
Astronomy
Muslim scholars made significant contributions towards the development
of many 'modern' sciences, such as physics, chemistry, medicine,
mathematics and astronomy. They were particularly interested in the
latter.

Using the work of the second century Greek astronomer Ptolemy as a
basis, Muslim thinkers greatly increased man's knowledge of
astronomy. Indeed, during the Middle Ages, when European science
underwent a decline, it was the Arabs who preserved the astronomical
heritage.

In some respects this achievement may have been inevitable, since
knowledge of the stars was essential for navigational purposes and for
telling the times of prayers and religious festivals. In other words,
being adventurous traders and mariners and temporally precise
worshippers, the Arabs needed to study astronomy other than for its
purely scientific interest, though undoubtedly such an interest
existed. Consequently they constructed many observatories and
improved certain measuring instruments such as the astrolabe for
determining and recording the positions and movements of celestial
bodies.

Foremost amongst early Arab scientists was al Khawarzimi, who lived in
Baghdad during the ninth century. His work was mainly concerned with
astronomy and mathematics. In fact, his mathematical treatise was the
first to employ what westerners term 'Arabic numerals' (which were
really borrowed from the Indians, as explained earlier. Although it
seems most likely that the Indians invented the zero symbol or cipher
('sifr' means empty in Arabic), al Khwarzimi is attributed with
greatly developing its use n mathematics to simplify multiplication and
division. He also gave a systematic account of algebra and geometry,
for use in solving practical astronomical and navigational problems.

Other notable Arab astronomers were al Battam (d. 929), al Zarquli (d.
1087) and Omar al Khayyami (d. 1123). The latter was a Persian
mathematician who devised a very accurate calendar based on
astronomical observations. It was reputed to have been more accurate
than the Gregorian one we use today, with an error factor of only one
day in 3770, rather than the Gregorian's one in 33303.

Incidentally, the mathematics used for astronomical calculations by the
Arabs involved the use of degrees and minutes of arc-first developed by
the Sumerians, and later developed extensively by the Babylonians,
millennia earlier. The direct expansion and inclusion of this system
into Euclidean geometry is the main reason why we measure angles in
degrees, minutes and seconds nowadays (not to mention basing our system
of measuring time upon it also).

Arab interest in astronomy was also continued in Moghul India, where
massive observatories were built in Jaipur, for example. It is
interesting to consider that some modern historians think that the
writings of the great Copernicus (who was the first westerner to
propose an heliocentric planetary system) show much that could be
attributable to these early Muslim astronomers.

Navigation
When the first Portuguese navigators, like Vasco da Gama, sailed along
the East African coast and around the Arabian Peninsula they
encountered a well-established Arab seafaring tradition, utilizing an
advanced navigational science dating from the eighth century.
Techniques used were basically simple, but never the less by the
eleventh century Arab mariners had adapted the Chinese discovery of the
magnetic properties of lodestone for use as a compass at sea. Earlier
methods had relied on steering by Polaris, the 'North' star, and
'Kamal', a kind of simple astrolabe used to reckon relative
latitude. In fact, it is believed that Europeans first acquired a
knowledge of the magnetic compass and the astrolabe (later to become
the sextant) from Muslim sailors.

The renowned Arab navigator Shihab al Ahmed bin Majid al Najdi
(c.1500), at the height of Arab navigational prowess, wrote a
masterpiece entitled "the Book of Profitable Things concerning the
First Principles and Rules of Navigation" which featured much
astronomical observational data, amongst other things nautical.

Part of the legacy of this period include the fact that many of the
brightest stars still bear Arabic names, allocated to them by Arab
astronomers and navigators, for example Betelgeuse, Deneb, Aldebaran
and Altair. These names, along with numerous other facets of Arab
scientific nomenclature and mathematics, passed into Europe during the
Renaissance.

However, this period, marked by the 'collision' of two great
maritime powers - the European and the Arabian - was the beginning
of the era of European ascendancy and the decline of Arab commercial
dominance in Middle Eastern and Oriental seas.